Cabinet Leg Levelers

[Jefferey Scott]

Have any of you guys used the Blum or the Camar ABS plastic leg levelers for your cabinets? Which brand and what did you like about them? I ordered a couple sets of the Camar for my kitchen cabinet project to try out. It looks like they just attach to the bottoms with screws rather than a bolt thru the bottom of the cabinet like the Blum. Thanks in advance for any info you can provide.

[frank shic]

i always use the camar leg levelers for precisely the same reason you stated: no one wants to see an ugly bolt going through the bottom of the cabinet! probably wouldn't make a difference for drawer stacks though. i prefer the knock in leg levelers. another trick is to just use them on the front, attack a ledger strip to the wall which will simplify the installation process somewhat.

[Jamie Buxton]

There's a slightly different scheme you might consider: the loose toekick. You build the base cabinets the same way as you would for those leg levelers. However, the space between the boxes and the floor is filled with a loose toekick -- basically a box. It extends the full length of the run of base cabinets. You install the toekick first, leveling it with shims, and screwing it to the subfloor. Then the base cabinets just drop on to it. In my view, the loose toekick has a few advantages over the leg levelers. First, you don't snap off the levelers when you're flipping the cabinet over. (DAMHIKT) Second, you make only one leveling operation per run, not one per box. Third, it is easier to level the toekick. You can see it and reach it and adjust it without crawling around on the floor on your belly.

Factories prefer leg levelers because they don't know where each base cabinet is going. If you're custom-building the kitchen, you know exactly where everything is going, and you can make the loose toekicks.

[mreza Salav]

I'm not a cabinet maker at all but have seen what Jamie is talking about. It's more work to build them than to attache a leg leveler but I agree they are better in many ways (including those he mentioned).

[Mark Rakestraw]

Bolt through Blum????? They don't come with directions, but I don't think so. With the right size bit (30mm I think) there's no need to bolt them on, they are just press in. The hole in the top is for those places you can't reach when the cabinet is in place. In those areas drill a small corresponding hole up through the cabinet floor and you can use a screwdriver from the topside to adjust the leveler

[phil harold]

loose toe-kick or what I call a ladder made out of plywood
I like to level the ladder in first then just place the boxes on top

[Jefferey Scott]

Bolt through Blum????? They don't come with directions, but I don't think so. With the right size bit (30mm I think) there's no need to bolt them on, they are just press in. The hole in the top is for those places you can't reach when the cabinet is in place. In those areas drill a small corresponding hole up through the cabinet floor and you can use a screwdriver from the topside to adjust the leveler

You're right, they do have a version that is press in. They have two versions that I could see at wwhardware.com. I just wonder how secure a press on leveler is compared to one that is bolted through the cabinet bottom.

[Jefferey Scott]

There's a slightly different scheme you might consider: the loose toekick. You build the base cabinets the same way as you would for those leg levelers. However, the space between the boxes and the floor is filled with a loose toekick -- basically a box. It extends the full length of the run of base cabinets. You install the toekick first, leveling it with shims, and screwing it to the subfloor. Then the base cabinets just drop on to it. In my view, the loose toekick has a few advantages over the leg levelers. First, you don't snap off the levelers when you're flipping the cabinet over. (DAMHIKT) Second, you make only one leveling operation per run, not one per box. Third, it is easier to level the toekick. You can see it and reach it and adjust it without crawling around on the floor on your belly.
Factories prefer leg levelers because they don't know where each base cabinet is going. If you're custom-building the kitchen, you know exactly where everything is going, and you can make the loose toekicks.

Jamie you make some valid points. I'm not married to either method yet. I've still got 20 cabinets to build before I'm ready to set them. I'll consider this method as well. Thanks!

[Steve Griffin]

To add to the advantages of the "loose toekick" or ladder method:

-Saves sheetgoods. The ladder is made of smaller falloff, and really helps use scraps in the shop. Also, instead of needing 34.5" cabinet box sides, which is a horrible sheet good length, you can subtract the toekick and easily get six sides per sheet.

-Easier box construction. All dados can be on the deck and top, rather than some on sides and some on top/decks.

-Toe kicks can be .25" sheetgoods, because the ladder provides plenty of structure and attachment. Toe kicks can also be applied before cabinet set, which is slightly easier.

-Cabinets are lighter and smaller for delivery.

Now my dream would be a really cheap method of leveling the ladder bases without shims. Shims only take a few more minutes per cabinet to use and cut off, which is probably the same as the time to install levelers.

[mreza Salav]

To add to the advantages of the "loose toekick" or ladder method:

-Saves sheetgoods. The ladder is made of smaller falloff, and really helps use scraps in the shop. Also, instead of needing 34.5" cabinet box sides, which is a horrible sheet good length, you can subtract the toekick and easily get six sides per sheet.


I'm a bit confused Steve, are you suggesting that the sides could stop at the top of the toe kick? The way I have seen it the entire box goes over the toe kick (i.e. toe kick sits inside the box) and gives you a more stable/secure box (no side-to-side movement), unless you secure the box to the box by some means?

[Peter Kelly]

To add to the advantages of the "loose toekick" or ladder method:

-Saves sheetgoods. The ladder is made of smaller falloff, and really helps use scraps in the shop. Also, instead of needing 34.5" cabinet box sides, which is a horrible sheet good length, you can subtract the toekick and easily get six sides per sheet.

-Easier box construction. All dados can be on the deck and top, rather than some on sides and some on top/decks.

-Toe kicks can be .25" sheetgoods, because the ladder provides plenty of structure and attachment. Toe kicks can also be applied before cabinet set, which is slightly easier.

-Cabinets are lighter and smaller for delivery.

Now my dream would be a really cheap method of leveling the ladder bases without shims. Shims only take a few more minutes per cabinet to use and cut off, which is probably the same as the time to install levelers.

One more advantage to building a separate base--if you're building an island, or a long peninsula it's far easier to secure everything. Just level and attach the plinth with L brackets to the floor, set the boxes on top and you're done. I just don't like the feeling of an island with plastic legs.

[Jefferey Scott]

One more advantage to building a separate plinth–if you're building an island, it's much esaier to secure to the floor.

I have a question. I have a concrete slab floor. How would you guys secure the ladder to the floor? Tapcons? or what.

[Peter Kelly]

On concrete, any type of lead or wedge anchor through the L bracket will work really. I don't personally like Tapcons all that much but if they work for you then by all means, use 'em.

[Sam Murdoch]

A few more ¢s worth of ideas Jeff, if you care. My system is a blend of back ledger and loose toe kick. I allow for a 1/2" leveled ledger behind a run of base cabinets with another 1/2" strip attached to the back of the ganged up cabinets set to rest on the wall ledger. These are not french cleats - no need - just one set to support the other. The leg part is a simple right angle of plywood - with 2 legs approximately 3" x the full length of a run of cabinets. The face leg is short of the intended finish height of the toe kick by at least 1/4". The height of the leg face is determined by the finish height of the toe kick space minus 1/4" to 1/2" depending on the degree of level of the floor.

When I get the base cabs to the job sight I attach the wall ledger, and flip the cabs on their back so that I can screw on my leg angle. I then pick up the cabinets and set them on the back ledger which is loosely attached to the wall with a few long screws that are not fully set because at this point the cabinets are sitting on the ledger but not level to the floor, front to back, because my front leg is too short, so the cabinets are leaning at the front. I then lift the cabinets by setting shims along the front under the leg angle until the assembly is level front to back (it is already level left to right). When I'm all set I set just a few screws through the leg angle and some shims into the floor and of course finish attaching the cabinets to the wall. On a concrete floor I would probably drive the shims in with construction adhesive, some PL caulking, just to keep them located, otherwise the wall screws and return cabinets make up a fully locked-in system. Next trim the floor shims so that they don't interfere with my finished toe front (typically a 1/2" finished board). Takes longer to read and write about then to actually do it. I have tried using separate bases and determined that having to build and level those was not efficient or cost effective. Tried leveler feet too, but hated spending the money. My system uses throw away plywood - is fast and easy and pretty fool proof. If there is a down side it is that when trying to set a really long run of cabs I need to get help or break up the run into smaller groups, though I try to design around those issues as I typically send my cabinets to the field with face frames attached to the entire elevation on one wall.

... and now I've got to go build my too long coffee break is over :)

[Steve Griffin]

Unless it's an island, you can skip attachment to a concrete or tile floor. Screw to the walls.

If you do need to attach to the floor, I use little angle braces and concrete screws.

[Ryan Brucks]

I bought the camars, they were listed as using a dowel for installation; however, I was pleasantly surprised to see they also had 4 screw holes around the flanged top fitting. Easiest thing to install ever and they work great.

I didn't use a kick plate which made my install easier but they have all that stuff inlcuded.

[Larry Gipson]

I also made "loose toekicks" when I made cabinets for my house. I was doing a remodel, so I needed to do the leveling on the front side to match existing tile flooring. The trick I found to work best was to cut the front board of the toekick first, setting the angle such that the top edge was as perfectly level as I could make it and the right height. Then I added the sides and back so that I could screw them to the mud sill.

Vertical supports in the toekick are defined by the cabinet widths and placement. Horizontal supports in the corners create a surface that the cabinets are screwed to and add strength. (There are 4 screws inside the boxes connecting them to the toekick.)

I leveled the toekick front to back with cedar shims before permanent installation.

In one case, the drywall was so crooked, I made the toekick smaller on the back side so that smaller pieces of 1/2" plywood could be used as spacers.

I laminated thin cherry veneer (the sticky back kind with the peel off plastic) to the front board of the toekick and finished it to match the cabinets. I've seen minimal toekicks built right at the job site, but I built mine with the cabinets in the shop. The construction is identical to the cabinets. I always use my little air nailer to hold the plywood together until I can get screws in it - it sure makes life easy.

On final installation, I set the cabinets in place on the nice flat (and level) shelf provided by the toe kick, then screwed the boxes to each other. Once set, I put a few screws in the floor of each box to fix them to the toekick. The result is that the granite is perfectly level.

[scott vroom]

another trick is to just use them on the front, attack a ledger strip to the wall which will simplify the installation process somewhat.

Frank, how do you attach the toe kick using this process?

[Will Blick]

I love the loose toe kick concept...

I assume a front decorative face board is used to make all the toe kicks look seamless along one run?

[frank shic]

Frank, how do you attach the toe kick using this process?

you screw either a piece of longer piece of wood or ply to the drywall, rest the back of the cabinet on top of the support and then only have to adjust the front leveling legs. once that's done, you snap the toe kick which has to be dadoed to accept the toe clips that attach to the levelling feet. i have a boring machine that's set up just for boring the holes for the levelling feet so it's my preferred method vs the separate ladder toekick system.

[Peter Kelly]

I love the loose toe kick concept...

I assume a front decorative face board is used to make all the toe kicks look seamless along one run?

I make the face of the toe plinth out of a solid piece of matching hardwood if the doors and ends are finished clear, fastened from behind with pocket screws so no visible fasteners. Otherwise, laminated or painted plywood to match.

[Erik Christensen]

I haven't used either Blum or Camar levelers but woodcraft sells an italian made white plastic leveler that has a mounting base that can just be screwed to the bottom of the cabinet case and they are rated at 250# load each. I like them a lot - have them on my shop cabs that take a beating and no problems after 4 years.

As far as toe kick - they come with clips to let you snap on and off a toe kick if necessary - this is a great feature if you need to clean up a big liquid spill - you do not have to worry about stagnant water under your kitchen cabinets. I use scrap ply for the toe kick, hot glue on scrap tiles pieces from the floor install, grout them & after installing the toe kick, run a bead of sanded caulk on the bottom and it is a seamless match to the floor.

[Mark Blum]

I am about ready to start a kitchen reno in my house and intend to use the loose toekick method as well. Another benefit to this method not yet mentioned here is that it helps with flooring installation. I can build my loose toekicks in place directly on the subfloor and get them all leveled and set. I can then tile all around the kitchen without having already-installed cabinets in my way and without having to waste tile by tiling under the cabinets. I will just add enough height to the toekick to account for the thickness of the tile install. Then I can attach finished fronts to the toekicks after the cabinets are installed to hide the edges of the tile and finish everything off. No trying to grout under cabinets.

[Phil Thien]

I haven't done it yet, but the loose toekick method would be one way I'd go.

If I didn't have corners to deal with, I'd do a straight line of uppers/lowers mounted on cleats, with no toe kicks. You'd think this would be a cleaning nightmare, but I've seen it done and it works.

[Dave Zellers]

Toe kicks are Soooooooooooo twentieth century.

Eliminate it and overhang the counter by 3".

[Sam Murdoch]

Toe kicks are Soooooooooooo twentieth century.

Eliminate it and overhang the counter by 3".

Of course you then lose the first 3" of your DW and oven opening and of the top drawers (even with full extension +1" slides) and in many instances you would need to give up 3" of cabinet depth for the extra overhang. They had a few good ideas in the 20th century :).

[Dave Zellers]

:)

Naahhhhh...

Time for a change. And to deny the spiders their favorite space. :D