Working with smaller stock - slider or cabinet saw?

[John Myers]

I've heard that a slider is great for breaking down sheet material and cross cutting. But which type of saw would be better for working with smaller pieces - for instance, cutting stock for small boxes? I was envisioning getting a Hammer 31x48 slider. Since it has is a small slider, I don't think it has the awkward slider base protruding out to the left of the blade - is that right? If so, then you could rip stock using the fence the regular way as a cabinet saw. But does the slider have a limitation on how small you can cut pieces with it safely? Would a sled and a cabinet saw be safer in this situation?

[Erik Loza]

John, just want to add my 2-cents and hope this does not come across as "Us vs. Them", since the machine you are asking about is manufactured by a competitor of mine, but I get your question a lot from prospective customers, which is why I wanted to respond. Basically, unless the customer tells me they are working with a lot of sheet goods, I tell them not to buy a slider and to just get a sliding attachment for their Unisaw, PM66, or whatever they have. Reason being that standard cabinet saws are perfectly capable of cutting a square angle on a 31" piece of stock (assuming that is the stroke of the machine you are looking at) and just getting an Excalibur or whatever is substantially cheaper than buying a hole new machine just to say that you own a slider.

For example, my company does not manufacture any sliding table saw with a stroke of less than 5' (just like we don't manufacture any sliding table saw which does not have a separate scoring blade...). This is because crosscutting a standard 4x8 panel is really where you start needing a slider. Anything smaller, and we have not just seen a demand for it. We do a manufacture a combination machine with a sliding table that is about the stroke you are talking about. The folks I have sold that to use it for things like display boxes and small cases and I can tell you, based on followup feedback, that the sliding table is far more appreciated by its owners for endgrain profiling with the shaper than with the saw, itself.

I would never tell anyone how to spend their money or what to buy/not buy, since we all have our own motivations and wallets, but I personally would not pay for and do not reccommend to my customers buying any sliding table saw which will at least not handle a standard panel crossways. The dollar-to-return ratio is hard to justify IMHO. Again, this is just my humble suggestion as a guy with 10 years experience in placing sliders into pro and hobby shops. I wish you the best of luck in your research, wherever that path leads you.

Erik Loza
Minimax USA

[ian maybury]

It's an interesting question that one John which just today i was pondering - I'm facing into it having got my K3 Perform running.

I needed to trim some roughly 3in x 1in x 3/4in pieces to size. Too short and narrow to want to try to do them on the rip side between the fence and the blade, but not easily located on the slider either.

One mantra that's about is that you do everything on the slider. The slider is great (accuracy, control, easy to align parts off it), but I've not worked my way through the options yet. What I seem to be seeing is that while none are insurmountable there may be reasons to also think of the possibility working off a suitably configured (e.g. very low) rip fence on small stuff.

Several issues seem to surface with the slider:

1. Some means is needed to locate the piece accurately on it.
2. It needs to be clamped or otherwise held down.
3. The hardware that you might use to do these jobs on larger pieces won't necessarily work on small. e.g. clamps with large feet etc.
4. Depending on how your slider is set it may be .007in or more above the surface of the table.
5. It's possible to organise a zero clearance insert on the table side, but less so on the slider side - although the equivalent of a sled resting on the slider is possible.
6. The slider has a single hold down T slot, it's location is more convenient for some jobs than others.

I'd rather not have to build custom fixturing for every small workpiece, but on the other hand have never seen how other people do this. I've machined up some T nuts from phenolic and am making up adapted F clamps for clamping work down to start with.

It's likely that a well laid out sled/board aligned off the slot and mounted on the slider may be a basis for a general purpose set up for handling small parts on the slider - it would be held down by the above clamps.

I've just finished mounting an Incra 1000SE mitre gauge on the slider for angled cross cuts - it's worked out well.

Parallel bars/guides mounted off the slider at right angles to it are another possibility that works well on larger parts (two bars that slide so the ends move closer to or further away from the blade (the LH edge of the workpiece is butted against the ends to line it up - parallel or at angles) - but it's again less clear how these would be made to work for small pieces.

It's be interesting to hear what others have got up to with sliders...

ian

[David Kumm]

I use a Hammond glider trim saw for small stuff and won't give it up even with two sliders. No bevel but dead on crosscut to about 18". They were used in the printing industry and can be had for about 300-500, take up little room and are great furniture saws. You can modify them to rip but they are really just a dedicated crosscut. Dave

[Larry Edgerton]

Eric pretty much covers it.

I have both, a Minimax slider and a PM 66, and for what you are talking about I use the 66.

Larry

[Rod Sheridan]

Hi, since I only have one saw, a Hammer B3 Winner, I use it for everything.

It's great for ripping smaller pieces with the fence in the low position, much better than my General cabinet saw was.

For crosscutting small items I use the hold down clamp.

You are correct that with the smaller slider, the base doesn't protrude into the operator area.

You can also add a sacrificial wood face to the crosscut fence that extends past the blade if you are cutting tiny pieces, just like you would do with a mitre gauge.

Honestly, I wouldn't go back to having a cabinet saw again............Rod.

[ian maybury]

I guess the strength of the rip fence is it's pretty wide capability as is - with no need to make fixturing parts. That and the reality that most of us are familiar with it from years on conventional cabinet saws.

That said the feeding of small parts requires a lot of care, creative use of pushers of one sort or another, may entail fingers closer to the blade than is ideal, and isn't always the most relaxed of jobs given that unless a short sub fence is used it frequently results in small pieces caught between the running blade and the fence - with the issue of how to get them out past the rising rear edge of the blade without their getting chewed up or flying past your ear. Or worse.

There's meanwhile no reason why a slider can't be set up with a fixed 'fence' (strip of wood) clamped to it to deliver pretty much the same function from the LHS (the edge of the slider is great for aligning stuff from), but more to the point it also offers the potential to also work a lot more safely IF solutions are found for aligning and holding down smaller parts.

I guess i'm wondering if it's not so much that a slider isn't suited to handling smaller parts - but rather that the methods required to use it that way are not widely known. It's surely not at any disadvantage compared to a rip fence, and offers significant advantages too???

There is going to be a size of part below which holding parts down is going to become problematical and it's going to be more practical to move to a tool (even a hand tool) with a much smaller blade that puts less force into the workpiece, but that's nothing to do with the fact that a saw may have a slider....

ian

[John Coloccia]

The sliding table is typically set somewhat above the rest of the table, isn't it? Does that mess up the edge on smaller parts, especially rips, for example? I could see where it doesn't matter for larger pieces but doesn't that through things off for smaller ones? I ask because I'm still considering bringing a combo machine into my shop....I want to save space, add a shaper, and add the ability to easily break down rough lumber...but I have all the same concerns about working with smaller pieces.

[John Myers]

I was also wondering that very same thing about the affect of cutting smaller pieces with the slider being slightly higher than the saw table. Couldn't one put together a sled to fit on the slider - with clamps and hold-downs?

What attracts me to the slider is that it offers accurate and easy crosscutting, and doing traditional ripping along the fence. I'm not looking for one to break down sheet material. I figure on using a Festool track saw for that task.

[joe milana]

I've got one sliding table machine & I have the slider set "flush" with the cast iron table. I don't see any reason to do otherwise, unless there are discrepancies in the cast iron top. Another method I have heard of is to set the slider above the cast iron table the thickness of one sheet of formica. then, when you want to rip using the fence, you attach the formica to the cast iron top with some two sided tape, and voila, you have a flush top. I'd just set it flush though...

[Erik Loza]

The sliding table is typically set somewhat above the rest of the table, isn't it?

Correct, John. It is SOP in Europe to set the slider a few thousands above the height of the cast iron table. Reason being so that finished panels do not drag or otherwise get marred during the cut. This can be annoying if someone has a combined machine, where you might do sheet goods one day (where that extra height would not matter...) and then, say, endgrain work on the shaper, the next. Or, for working with small pieces of solid wood. Any good slider, regardless of mfr, should be able to have the height of the sliding table able to be adjusted to the owner's taste. Hope this helps clarify.

Erik Loza
Minimax USA

[John Coloccia]

Thanks, Erik. Yes, that's helpful. I didn't know if there was some reason I wasn't thinking of that forced the slider to be lightly above the table, but if it's just a matter of not wanting to ding up sheet goods, then I could just set it flush and be done with it.

[Erik Loza]

Sure, John. The thing to remember is that in Europe, sliders are only used for sheet goods, not solid stock, so that is the mentaility over there of setup for the machines off the production line. Bandsaws are used for cutting smaller pieces of solid stock (and with good reason, IMHO...), not sliders. The "little slider" seems to have been created entirely for the US market.

[Rick Potter]

John,

I don't see why you could not make a sled, pretty much like you would make for a table saw. You just need to clamp it to the slider, and have it hang over onto the saw table. I would center the blade, as on a normal sled. To make up for the height of the slider, just put some UHMW tape on the table side of the sled. You should be able to do it with sliding stops, and all the bells and whistles of any other sled.

When I got my slider I kept my Unisaw. I have never made the sled, because it was always easier to just use the Uni for most things other than plywood. I have a Felder KF700, and it is a great machine, but I find that I use the Uni for most of what I do. I am considering downsizing a bit, and if I do it will be the slider that goes, for that reason. A hard decision, as it is a wonderful tool.

Rick Potter

[John Coloccia]

Sure, John. The thing to remember is that in Europe, sliders are only used for sheet goods, not solid stock, so that is the mentaility over there of setup for the machines off the production line. Bandsaws are used for cutting smaller pieces of solid stock (and with good reason, IMHO...), not sliders. The "little slider" seems to have been created entirely for the US market.

Well, truth be told the other consideration is dumping the table saw entirely and bring in an MM16 as a replacement. I've been toying with this a while. I've been doing something of a dry run lately with my 19" Grizzly, and haven't turned on the table saw in about a week, but I know there are at least several tasks I do which are impossible to do on a bandsaw but are trivial on a table saw.

[ian maybury]

I'm another that set my slider (2500mm slider on a K3) flush or perhaps a thou above the table - it turned out to be very flat and pretty much exactly straight along the edge adjacent to the slider. (it had a dip of about .003in behind the blade, but the provided jacking screw sorted that very nicely) The blade is about 4mm from the edge of the slider, so there's no great issue about working from the slider side.

So far I see no downside - perhaps it's in the case of droopy or warped sheet material where it pays off. It's after all no different to the situation on a cabinet saw where the sheet material slides on a cast iron surface. It'd be a different matter if the table wasn't flat, or the slider straight.

I don't have the exposure to say what sliders are mostly sold for over here (but a lot of the local business is cabinetry), but my guess is that the rationale about sliders being set high for sheet goods may be as much a cover that allows the manufacturers to reduce assembly time as anything to do with function. (to allow them set the slider way high during assembly so they don't have to worry about table flatness and spending time on fine tuning)

The tolerances listed in the Hammer manual are quite wide, possibly for the same reason - and the saw as delivered wasn't even within those. Understandable i guess since it took me about three full days to get the saw set up. The good news is that the quality of the parts seems to be very good so that it is possible to dial it in very precisely. (it's a whole new world compared to e.g. the Robland combo i had before)

I'm pretty sure there's plenty using them for small work too - just that it's not mainstream.

I've installed an Incra Mitre 1000SE to work off the slider over a 400mm table extension for short work (photos below) - it's not quite bolt on (the miter bar is packed with self adhesive UHMW strip (which block planed nicely to size), and it needs a metal packing strip made to bring the bar flush with the top surface of the slider), but i wanted the ability to index cross cut angles precisely and the stock short fence has no indexing. (i also have an Inrcra TS LS positioner in place of the stock rip fence)

Still to do, but much like Rick says i'm thinking that a sled/board with a T rail fixed to the bottom (to engage in the slot in the slider) with two inset T slots on top at right angles to the slider (these Incra slot connectors would be a handy way of doing it: http://www.incrementaltools.com/INCRA_Build_It_18_T_Slot_Connector_p/bconect18.htm ) would function much like a set of mini parallel bars - a strip of wood could be clamped down on it at angle using hand knobs picking up in the slots.

This could be easily set up parallel to the line of cut using a combination square off the (zero clearance) edge adjacent to the saw blade, or angled for taper cuts in small pieces from zero to to say 45 deg. An upgrade might be to use an Incra flip stop fence and stop in its place: http://www.incrementaltools.com/IncraLOCK_Flip_Shop_Stop_Fence_36_p/flipfnc36.htm It'd be possible to also use the slots to clamp down the workpieces using DIY or bought slot clamps too.

Stuff like the Incra I box would mount very nicely off the slider by means similar to that shown in the pictures of the mitre gauge modifcation.

One advantage of a long slider is that you can leave a set up in situ at one end - while doing something else at the other. It's a pity I think to buy a short slider unless you're very certain you won't want to handle larger work, or there's an absolute space constraint or something.

I guess what I'm saying is that i don't think a slider is at any disadvantage when doing small work - just that the approach to setting up may a little different to that on a cabinet saw....

ian

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[Larry Edgerton]

John,

When I got my slider I kept my Unisaw. I have never made the sled, because it was always easier to just use the Uni for most things other than plywood. I have a Felder KF700, and it is a great machine, but I find that I use the Uni for most of what I do. I am considering downsizing a bit, and if I do it will be the slider that goes, for that reason. A hard decision, as it is a wonderful tool.


Rick Potter

Ditto. Except its a Minimax and a 66.

Larry

[howard s hanger]

Sure, John. The thing to remember is that in Europe, sliders are only used for sheet goods, not solid stock, so that is the mentaility over there of setup for the machines off the production line. Bandsaws are used for cutting smaller pieces of solid stock (and with good reason, IMHO...), not sliders. The "little slider" seems to have been created entirely for the US market.

I'm not sure I agree with that. If you look at the Hammer slider demos on their website, they demonstrate how to size solid stock almost exclusively. I have the 48" K3 and do very little sheet goods. It's also easier to put an initial edge on a board using the ripping shoe. When combined with the eccentric clamp, which isn't cheap BTW, it makes it a very safe platform to rip and also to hold larger boards. If I don't need the slider, I can easily lock it down and use the saw conventionally. I would never go back to having a cab saw after having this one for 3 months. It's simply fabulous.

[John Myers]

Howard - how do you like the rip fence that comes with the K3?

[Mark W Pugh]

I've heard that a slider is great for breaking down sheet material and cross cutting. But which type of saw would be better for working with smaller pieces - for instance, cutting stock for small boxes? .............. But does the slider have a limitation on how small you can cut pieces with it safely? Would a sled and a cabinet saw be safer in this situation?

Without buying a new saw, these things have done a great job. I have used them and I'm not concerned when cutting smaller items.

http://www.amazon.com/Micro-Jig-gr200-dvd-hbx2-Grr-ripper-Supreme/dp/B003W2DGB8/ref=pd_cp_hi_0

[John Myers]

Thanks for the advice guys - very much appreciated! From what I've read I'm thinking that a cabinet saw would serve me well for the type of work that I do.

Mark - that Grr-ripper looks like a real good item to have for a table saw and router table. I'll pick one up. Thanks for pointing this item out to me!

[Ryan Mooney]

Howard - how do you like the rip fence that comes with the K3?

I'm not Howard, but there are a couple of things I like and don't like about the fence (I have the Felder style heavier "Cast iron professional rip fence" which now appears to be standard on all configs).

Likes


High/Low fence is really nice. I ~mostly have mine in "low" mode as it allows you to work with the workpiece without the fence pushing you towards the blade and makes it easier to get a push stick in on narrower pieces. The high mode is nice to have when cutting something taller, but I think I've only really used it in that config a couple of times (and probably should have moved to the BS).
Substantial. It is a nice big piece of metal (well several nice bit pieces of metal). Once locked down it doesn't move. The flex at the far end is very minimal (this was something that I wasn't sure about since its only locked at one end but its really not a problem at all). There is very minimal shift when you lock it down as well (maybe up to 1/64 at the blade - I haven't really measured it specifically but setting it with a gauge block it isn't generally required to adjust past one slide+lock and if required its a very small shift).
The ability to slide it back & forth (edit: forward/backward) is really nice. That allows you to _safely_ use it as a stop for cutting off small pieces with the bulk on the side of the slider. I've been tempted to buy another shorter extrusion for this purpose as the default fence sticks out the back a ways when pulled back although I haven't been able to justify pulling the trigger yet (the shorter extrusion is about $100).
Direct read on width setting. This is sort of a +-, I like the direct read and it makes it easy to switch the high/low fence position with minimal fuss. I also found I personally have less parallax errors with it as you can sight down the edge of the fence. Having said that I can see how not having a bezel or easier to see line could be an annoyance for some users (if my eyesight - which isn't great - was a lot worse I might feel differently).


Dislikes/:

Clamping jigs/guides to the extrusion is complicated compared to a more traditional guide. Ditto sacrificial pieces. Not to say its impossible, its definitely possible, it just requires a little more thought/parts/modification (pick 2).
Initial alignment can be a little fussy (essentially you line up the large metal bar). Nominally it comes from the factory with already set offsets and probably that works great, I wouldn't know because I foolishly loosened the wrong nuts. Realigning wasn't tooo bad, but requires a series of careful loosen/tighten steps.


Haven't tried the fine adjust, its an option I didn't purchase but can be added after so if I feel rich one day I might consider it.

Overall pretty happy with the fence.

[ian maybury]

By all accounts the current K3 fence is a big improvement on the one fitted when the saw was first introduced.

As the picture i have an Incra TS LS on mine. The reason was simply that before I bought the K3 I had already bought the TS LS for another saw - and wanted to retain the positioning capability. So far it seems to work very well on the K3.

ian

[Rod Sheridan]

I also am not Howard however I have the same fence on my B3 and have no issues with it.

I like the ability to use it as a low fence or as a short fence, much more versatile than my Bies fence...............Rod.

[Mike Heidrick]

I love my grippers on my TS and bandsaws for small parts. I have a NA saw. No desire for a euro slider saw other than they are awesome tools (I do love the slider on my shaper). Really zero need of a slider saw owning a tracksaw and a CNC and seperate sliding shaper. If you dont own a shaper I can see how a combo slider saw would be an awesome purchase to get two tools in one. Or better yet get a big multi combo with a 16" jointer planer too - sweet!! :)

Also there is a Unifence or just clamp on a sub fence to your bies - gives same hi/low functionality

[George Bustamante]

I've heard that a slider is great for breaking down sheet material and cross cutting. But which type of saw would be better for working with smaller pieces - for instance, cutting stock for small boxes? I was envisioning getting a Hammer 31x48 slider. Since it has is a small slider, I don't think it has the awkward slider base protruding out to the left of the blade - is that right? If so, then you could rip stock using the fence the regular way as a cabinet saw. But does the slider have a limitation on how small you can cut pieces with it safely? Would a sled and a cabinet saw be safer in this situation?

I am late to this discussion, but feel there has been some bad information tossed around on this topic. The tone of this discussion has been set by the opinion of a representative from a competing manufacturer. I have no commercial interest in any woodworking machinery manufacturer, but having gone down this road myself (but with a different saw), think that the Hammer saw you inquired about will serve your needs well.

A conventional cabinet saw is really set up to do one thing well and that is rip stock. Unless you get a riving knife, which remains a rarity for this type of saw, it is substantially less safe to use when ripping solid wood than European sliding table saws that by EU regulation all have riving knives.

When it comes to cross cutting solid wood or sheet stock, the sliding table absolutely is far safer and much more accurate than any North American style cabinet saw. You can cobble together a host of improvised solutions to enable cross cuts on a cabinet saw, but there is simply no comparison to an integrated solution in a slider.

It is very simple to clamp solid wood or sheet stock to a sliding table - making a slider a very efficient and safe ripping machine. Zero clearance inserts for sliders are straight forward to make. Finally, the height of the sliding table above the main table is adjustable to user desire. I am really struck that these are discussion points when the alternatives required to enable this functionality in a cabinet saw are far worse.
:confused:

[Mike Wilkins]

ShopNotes magazine, the one put out by the Woodsmith folks, had an article on building a sled for the sole purpose of creating small parts for boxes, etc. Neat sled arrangement which could also cut angles and by the use of an add-on jig, cut splines in box sides. I currently have a slider with a 5' sliding table, and a small cast iron Craftsman for smaller stuff. My slider gets used 95% of the time.

[ian maybury]

I suspect that as ever people find it hard to change over to a new way of doing things, especially if they are very highly practised in using one alternative. In that they inevitably will find it really hard going to have top stop and think through operations etc again when previously it was routine.

That's very understandable, but it doesn't of itself remotely suggest that one or the other solution is superior or inferior. There's been lots of inventions/technologies where by having a large base of users become familiar with them they have achieved a pretty unassailable position in the market place. Often in fact despite some pretty clear disadvantages. (a certain computer operating system comes to mind :))

I'm another slider fan, but perhaps luckily enough had worked with another saw with a different format of slider - and never on a traditional cabinet saw.

The hard fact of the situation is perhaps that even though the slider has some definite advantage for both sheet and solid materials, the reality is that these won't deliver an overall improvement until the learning curve has been climbed.

All that said it's important not to over state the learning curve in moving to a slider - the reality is that it's pretty straightforward, and there's a significant payback to making the effort. How we perceive the situation may depend a lot on where we are on the curve, and how we feel about change.....

ian