Question on gluing edging to plywood sheves............

[Kent A Bathurst]

I will be building for a friend some bookshelves with plywood carcasses and solid wood edging on the shelves and as a face frame on the carcase body.

All materials will be BORG-sourced. RO 3/4" ply and solid RO edging.

Preferable, I would simply glue the ~3/4" x 1-1/2" solid RO to the end grain of the plywood. Would expect to use 1" 23-ga pins to maintain alignment and substitute for clamps.

Will those glue joints hold well?

No access to shop machines such as TS, jointer, planer..............I will have available a router, so I could get a slot-cutting bit, and cut slots for, say 1/8" hardboard spline, or 1/4" plywood spline, if my preferred method won't perform, but I am trying to avoid any complications if possible.

Thanks

[Todd Burch]

With a fresh cut edge on the ply, using 3/4" x 1 1/2" RO, you should be just fine.

You would be better off using a biscuit or spline for alignment than a 1" pin. It's a better mechanical alignment versus a "hold it where it should be with one hand while you drive a flimsy piece of wire with the other hand" approach.

While a slot cutter for a spline or biscuit might seem like more work up front, assembly will be easier, and you'll have no holes to fill from nails. Consider a 1" pin not driving to be below the surface. Now what? You can't pull it out, you can't drive it in. You can cut it off, but it will still be proud of the surface.

I use glued solid wood to ply shelves all the time, and the glue holds just fine. Trust the glue.

Here's a "cheating tip" for you. Allow a 1/16" or 1/8" reveal with the solid wood edging. In other words, instead of trying to perfectly align the top edge of the edging with the top edge of the ply shelve, allow the edging to be high and proud of the shelf. This does create a small lip, but give you, the builder, an edge on speed and doesn't require perfect alignment. If you ease the read corner of the wood edging, it's not so sharp and pronounced, and, if you have just a bit of glue squeeze out, or a gap from a non-perfect edge cut, it's hidden.

BTW, and hand plane will clean up the edge of the ply too.

Todd

[jim gossage]

If you are only using the RO edge to hide the plywood endgrain, then your plan is fine. However, the edge material can also be used to strengthen the shelf and decrease the amount of sag. This has actually been studied, and the use of a wider piece (1.5" as you are suggesting) is stronger, and the further use of a tongue and groove fit is stronger still. If you go this route, it would probably be best to use clamps to make the joint as strong as possible. This joint could be made with a router - optimally, a router table, but you did not mention whether you had access to a router table or free router. If you have a trim router, I recommend leaving the top edge of the solid RO about 1/16" proud, and then trimming it off with a flush trim bit. This will give you a perfect seem.

[Ole Anderson]

I agree, leave both edges proud, then trim them with a flush trim router bit. This is hard to do with a handheld router as you are balancing it in a 3/4" edge. I know you don't have a router table, but if others are reading this, I made a tall fence to hold the shelves vertically in place on my router table.

[Jay Jolliffe]

I think clamps would make a better bond than 23 gauge pins. Do expect the nosing to fit perfectly flat against the plywood. The glue will even hold it off some without clamping...I tried just the pins & they don't come out as nice as using clamps.

[scott vroom]

Hi Kent,

Sounds like you're away from the shop and dealing with limited tool availability. I've done a number of field installed shelf edgings using glue and pin nails with good success. As long as you have a clean sawed plywood edge and brush on a thin layer of glue you'll be fine. I'd avoid purposefully making the edging proud of the shelf; the hardwood veneer on plywood is extremely thin and very easy to sand through when trying to flush it up with a plane or sander. I use a small block of scrap wood hand held on the shelf top to align the edging.....then drive the pin. I wouldn't bother with a spline or biscuit; it's not going to buy you anything except more work. As others have said, clamps are better at pulling the edging tight to the shelf, but if you don't have clamps and the friend doesn't want to invest in any then inform him of the risks and let him make the decision.

[Mike Heidrick]

I'd go proud and run a flush trim bit on the edge. Skip the brads. Use clamps and cauls.

[Joe Spear]

I've done it with clamps, and I've done it by just holding the edging on with masking tape while the glue dried. I've had no problems. Titebond makes a molding glue that is thicker than the regular stuff and makes it easier to stick the edging on without it falling off while you're clamping or taping.

[Kent A Bathurst]

Thanks, guys.

Scott - you have hit the proverbial nail more-or-less on its head. I'm not away from "a" shop - I'm away from "my" shop. :D His "shop" is one I built for him, to accomodate his skills, needs and plans. I just go there to drink his wine, sleep in his guest room, burn his gas in his fishing boat, and pay the rent by dong what I can do.

I was planning on stuffing a pin-nailer and some 1" pins in my checked bag to take on the trip. His 16ga nailer is too oversized for this game, IMO. Planned to glue and pin the edging to hold everything in position. I am not opposed to clamping after that. Your point about a block of wood for alignment is exactly how I would approach it- thanks. I am not opposed to using a flush-trim router bit after that to bring the upper edge of the edging back in line, as needed - I can make that happen without screwing everything up; I learned how by screwing everything up a decade ago. He doesn't have a handplane worth its salt, so that option is out - my LN stuff and Delta checked bags aren't somewhere I want to go.

My main concern - which you seemed to have answered - is whether or not the edge of ply would adhere to solid wood, if properly cut, aligned, and assembled. I will plan on using the pins to align it, and clamps [plentiful, since he bought what I told him to buy :p]..

[David Hawxhurst]

your not in northern neck va area build this are you?

[Kent A Bathurst]

your not in northern neck va area build this are you?

Yeah, David, Sir, I am actually - down at Cole's Point, per usual.

Very nice of you to remember me. I know why you are asking, and I am grateful. :)

I thought about contacting you on this one, if my plans went south. My goal is to teach my friend how to do stuff within his skill capabilities, and his shop capabilities, whenever I can.

Hence - BORG materials, and "as simplified as possible" methods.

I can take you out on his boat, with his gas, and my beer, if you wanna find some of my secret spots where there ain't no dang fish...........:D

[David Hawxhurst]

so offering the use of a domino for alignment and bow clamps for gluing face frames on won't be of much interest to you?
you mentioned you/he has a router, with some simple jig(s) you could do some morticing for loose tenon type joint like a domino.

[Kent A Bathurst]

Ooooooh.......you are smarter than I.

Lemme think about that one,

Thanks

[David Hawxhurst]

probably not, just looking at it from a different angle. just my opinion but i think the router is the most useful tool you can own. it is very adaptive with the right jig.

[jim gossage]

I agree, leave both edges proud, then trim them with a flush trim router bit. This is hard to do with a handheld router as you are balancing it in a 3/4" edge.

Ole is right of course. If you don't have a router table and tall fence, I have used two tricks to avoid the balancing act with a handheld: 1) clamp your shelf against the side of your workbench (may need a shim in between) so that the edge of the shelf is flush with the top of the workbench, 2) clamp 2 shelves together with a couple of 2x4 spacers in between, with solid oak edges up. In both cases, you now have a much larger area to run your router base along. I recently used both techniques on a project and they worked well.

[Kent A Bathurst]

......... clamp 2 shelves together with a couple of 2x4 spacers in between, with solid oak edges up. In both cases, you now have a much larger area to run your router base along.......

This is what I generally do. I set the 2x4 a few inches below the edges, so the flush-trim bit won't hit it, and then can do all the edges on both shelves with one setup. In this case, there is only one edge to do per shelf, since they will be 3/4" x 1-1/2". And - since it is only a very small amount to trim off, I like to use my little lam trimmer - a few minutes to make a larger accessory base out of 1/4" - 1/2" ply gives a broad, stable base. The lam trimmer is much easier to control than a router.

[Erik Christensen]

dumb question but I have to ask it... If you are not using the edging for structural reasons - why not use hot melt edge banding? With a tough water based poly finish it holds up remarkably well - I have some shelves in the garage that are over 5 years old and they still look good

[Larry Rasmussen]

I have attempted to use the 23 gauge pins and found they were unsatisfactory. If you strike out clamping use the 16 gauge if you have to use a fastener through the face. Glue and clamps are what I always go back to. I like to glue two shelves face to face with a 2X wide facing in the middle then rip it down the middle for the two shelves. Seems to get more milage out of the time you spend aligning and glueing the facing and plywood.
Good luck,
Larry R
Seattle

[Kent A Bathurst]

dumb question but I have to ask it... If you are not using the edging for structural reasons - why not use hot melt edge banding? With a tough water based poly finish it holds up remarkably well - I have some shelves in the garage that are over 5 years old and they still look good

Not at all dumb - valid point, Erik: 2 reasons.

First, I am looking to add some structural integrity, although the dimensions and the intended use puts the shelving in a comfortable "sag range" without the edging. My original question was a bit inelegant...what I was really driving at was the ability to successfully glue solid wood to the edge of plywood. The primary purpose of the pins will be alignment and hold-in-place while the glue dries. I gave everyone an unintentional head fake by putting too much emphasis on the pins.

Second, I am fortunate to have these friends with a fairly new future-retirement home on the water at the lower Potomac. I have a key to the house, and know where they keep the key to the boat, and it is not unheard of for them to arrive for the weekend and find their boat out on the water, and their wine closet under seige. In return, I am always coming up with projects to "pay the rent" as it were, and to teach my friend how to play this game. Accordingly, I have "helped" him with projects that move steadily up the technique/methods/design scale one step at a time. The first was 24' x 10' 2 x 4 and plywood shelves in the garage.... lag screws and roofing nails. The last sizable project included 36" x 60" plywood shelving-cubbyhole unit in the mudroom for shoes and stuff, on top of a curved bench with storage drawers underneath. Those used hot melt iron-on edging tape and were painted. This next step in the skill accumulation is hardwood edging, dye, varnish.

The very, very first non-shop thing I ever made was a bookcase of ply with the iron-on edging and wipe-on poly....still going strong after ~ 20 years. A few hundred pounds of garden and plant reference books are in it.


I have attempted to use the 23 gauge pins and found they were unsatisfactory. If you strike out clamping use the 16 gauge if you have to use a fastener through the face. Glue and clamps are what I always go back to. I like to glue two shelves face to face with a 2X wide facing in the middle then rip it down the middle for the two shelves. Seems to get more milage out of the time you spend aligning and glueing the facing and plywood.
Good luck,
Larry R

Larry - thanks. As noted above, the 23ga pin thing was an unintentional misdirection. My friend has more than enough clamps to do the job, and I am not at all opposed to using them. The pins will help with alignment, so the edging doesn't "creep" under clamp pressure. I was, though, kind of wondering if the pins alone would hold firmly enough for the joint to properly set up without the clamps....not getting a lot of love for that idea, though. ;)

Interesting technique on doubling-up and ripping. Will keep that in mind for the future - my friend doesn't have a TS, though, so not an option this time at bat.

He has a CMS and a DP. Everything else is hand-held. Each Christmas, I give his wife a list of things that would be great additions to his shop, and she always gets every one. He also buys things at my "suggestion" - air compressor, countersink/counterbore set, forstner set, brad point set, etc., etc. The goal, of course, is to add things that I want to have there when I come......so far, so good. In fact, the DP was Christmas 2010, along with a set of LV bench chisels. 2011 was a PC 690 with standard and plunge bases. Man, I love spending other people's money...... [Right, Paul?? :p ]