Different look to kitchen cabinet door / drawer fronts?

[Will Blick]

I am in pre planning stage of another kitchen tear-down / re build. I am not in the kitchen remodel business, but follow most trends ....

This is a very small kitchen, space matters....any tips to maximize space? (counters, cabinets and drawers)
Entire kitchen footprint is 10'x10' with 8ft ceilings. So I am planning on 42" deep counters on the two sides to maximize counter and drawer space. False backs on the upper cabinets.

Also, i am so tired of seeing raised panel doors on everything in houses these days... even pressed doors are simulated raised panels. I want a modern type feel, no shaker style kitchens... any suggestions on alternative cabinet door / drawer faces, which are unique and attractive? It's not a bid job, so cost is not a major concern, within reason of course. TYIA

Correction: I meant to write 39" deep counters, providing 42" space between l/r counters. (120" - 39"*2)

[Jamie Buxton]

.. 42" deep counters ..

Really? You'll never use the rear of the drawers, and never never get to the rear of the base cabinets.

[David G Elliott]

Before you commit to 42" deep counters, you might want to do some full-scale modelling, maybe using some cardboard or some surplus sheet goods. My guess is that you'll change your mind.

[Jamie Buxton]

I'm a big fan of all-drawer base cabinets. You don't have to crawl around on the floor to get access to the bottom rear.

For a really compact kitchen, you can downsize the appliances. Check out http://www.compactappliance.com/

[David Hawxhurst]

for doors there are only so many types possible. raised panel, flat panel (shaker falls into this), slab and inset. the choice of wood plays a larger part of how the doors look. 42" deep base cabinets is just to deep. but its your kitchen. cabinet sizes are based on generic ergonomics. if your taller than the generic used then you maybe able to increase the height and depth appropriately based on your height.

[Jamie Buxton]

Maybe you mean 42" tall? Deep is usually the horizontal direction.

[Will Blick]

Yes, 42" deep, as in your hip to wall measurement :-). I also plan to build them 6" higher than standard, I have done this on 3 other kitchens, not a single person notices the added height, they all find it "more pleasant"...yes, I am slightly tall, but more importantly, hate bending over.

Jamie, I should have mentioned, for bottoms, ALL drawers, of course, no way you can get to stuff back there.... of course tall draws to simulate bottom cabinets.

I have built one other kitchen with 42" deep counters, its really nice, as you can store things at the back of the counters, and still have plenty of counter work space. I realize I am limiting walk space, but counter space in front. If I don't build deep on the two sides, you have extra walk space in the kitchen....considering how small the kitchen is, its really only made for one "chef" :-)

OK, sorry made an error on this post, I will correct the OP.... its 39" depth I was planning on, this provides 42" of walk space between the two sides...I modeled this after another kitchen I have done, its workable, 48" I think is what is considered "normal" walk space between counters in an Galley kitchen... IIRC.

Jamie, thx for link, I will check it out... did not see appliances as a big problem as standard width appliances not too wide, and there needs to be some practicality as its a full time rental unit.

[Bill Huber]

I am not a kitchen builder but 42 inch counter top is way to deep. My little kitchen is 11x11 and the counter tops are 25 inches and I don't think I would want them any deeper.

I have seen a short cabinet on top all the way to the ceiling, good place to store those things you only use once a year but it will make the kitchen look smaller.

[Will Blick]

> My little kitchen is 11x11 and the counter tops are 25 inches and I don't think I would want them any deeper.


I installed 32" depth in my house, they seem ideal depth to me. Seems everything is growing through the years as humans get taller..... just like toilet heights and door jamb heights :-) I have all 8ft doors in my house, now standard doors seem very short to me.

The only reason I wanted to push to 39" depth is to maximize counter space and storage space, as the dead space, or walking area is not that critical for a 1 person kitchen. If I was designing with a blank floor-plan, i.e., I determine kitchen wall dimensions... I would not pick 39" depth...

[Phil Thien]

for doors there are only so many types possible. raised panel, flat panel (shaker falls into this), slab and inset. the choice of wood plays a larger part of how the doors look. 42" deep base cabinets is just to deep. but its your kitchen. cabinet sizes are based on generic ergonomics. if your taller than the generic used then you maybe able to increase the height and depth appropriately based on your height.

I thought inset was the way the doors are hung.

So you'd have overlay, or inset doors. Within each, you'd have raised panel, flat panel, or slab. Shaker would typically be a flat panel (typically inset).

Now, that doesn't cover glass. You could have glass single-pane or divided lite.

You could also go with non-wood (and non-glass) materials for a panel. I've seen stainless, perforated steels, leaded/stained glass, upholstered, etc.

[Sam Murdoch]

I like a door/drawer front in which the panel is flush to the frame - in effect - a reverse Shaker. I leave an 1/8"+/- reveal around the panel to the frame that adds an interesting shadow line and allows for wood movement. I pin the panel in the center top and bottom so that the reveals stay consistent. See the Alder Cottage Kitchen in my "album" on my profile page as an example (though not exactly as the panels in this case are individually splined horizontals - but flush to the frame face, which is the point I am making) http://www.sawmillcreek.org/album.php?albumid=714&attachmentid=225021.

As for the deep cabs - you can get Blum undermounts up to 30" and some side mount slides Grant-Hettich (I think) beyond 40" for full extensions. Pricey, but they are out there.

[Alan Schaffter]

Is this for a standard 5'2" - 5'6" US woman's kitchen? Will the entire back splash be a series of appliance garages? Will the owner likely want to sell before he/she dies? Then counters that far from the (25") accepted norm will reduce the value of the house or the seller will need to redo the entire kitchen before it sells. 39" is way too deep. Will the upper cabinets be deeper too, if not they will be difficult to reach. An island that wide where you have access to both sides is fine.

[J.R. Rutter]

Bamboo slabs? I use 3-ply Teregren for doors and drawer faces now and again. The edge grain (narrow strips) is easier to create a uniform look without worrying about grain matching.

[Richard McComas]

Modern kitchen pictures.

http://freshome.com/2010/06/11/25-modern-kitchen-designs-that-will-rock-your-cooking-world/

[Will Blick]

Phil, I was leaning towards non wood fronts.... but, of course I never tried this before, where do I source these materials?
Something like this from Richs link of amazing kitchens (thx Rich)

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Sam, I agree with you... flush looks more modern, or better crafted...prob. just my taste. (or as I mentioned, prob. just tired of seeing frame n panel doors)

Alan, where i have installed deep cabinets, it's never been a problem. And yes, I often install appliance garages to conceal all the stuff that accumulates in the back area. As for the height, valid point.... to compensate for the depth, I guess I can go to 37" height, just 1" over the standard. Re-sale issues always matter, nothing goes on forever :-)

Sam, slides are limited selection after 30" - fully agreed. Of course, the utensil drawers do not need to be same depth as cabinet bottoms... such as 30" drawers with 30" slides. Then for the bottoms, I can go larger for the pull-outs, maybe an inch or two less than the counter depth... since its larger items stored in the bottom, don't think full length slides are mandatory, heck 3/4 slides were the norm for a long time before full slides.

as for uppers, I mentioned previously, I will have false backs on them, so they appear as standard cabinets, with everything accessible.

Getting lots of resistance on the added depth... makes me nervous I am thinking too far outside the box :-(
Space is at such a premium in these tiny bungalows... just trying to maximize the small space...hmmmm....

[Michael W. Clark]

I like the idea of more flat surface to work with and the extra height may net you another drawer. One thing though about the 39" deep cabinets and 42" clear walkway is that it will be difficult to stand in front of the drawer and open it all the way. Then, when you do, its a long reach to the back. You could stand on the side, but then whatever you want from the drawer will inevitabley be on the other side (at least that's my luck) and may be difficult to reach depending on drawer width. I might consider going only a little deeper with the cabinets and make the island wider for increased storage underneath.

In a modern or contemporary setting, I like the look of dark wood (cherry/walnut) and stainless. If you mix some frosted glass in, it may add some interest as well. Maple goes well with SS and gives a good clean, sleek look too. Add some stone for the backsplash or legs of the island would also be cool.

[Will Blick]

Hi Michael, no island here :-) not enough room at 10'...the pix was just an example that Rich provided offering modern looks.

Agreed on the drawer depth.... we prob. cross posted, but I would shorten the drawers to prob. 30", and not make them too wide so everything is accessible.

Maple and SS sure sounds interesting and agrees with my tastes, and love of the lighter hardwood.... any pix of this look? I have never seen these two combined....what part of the cabinet would be stainless? (unless you are talking about the appliances, which will be SS) Frosted glass is also a nice suggestion to rid the "panel" door look...

[scott vroom]

I am in pre planning stage of another kitchen tear-down / re build. I am not in the kitchen remodel business, but follow most trends ....

This is a very small kitchen, space matters....any tips to maximize space? (counters, cabinets and drawers)
Entire kitchen footprint is 10'x10' with 8ft ceilings. So I am planning on 42" deep counters on the two sides to maximize counter and drawer space. False backs on the upper cabinets.

Also, i am so tired of seeing raised panel doors on everything in houses these days... even pressed doors are simulated raised panels. I want a modern type feel, no shaker style kitchens... any suggestions on alternative cabinet door / drawer faces, which are unique and attractive? It's not a bid job, so cost is not a major concern, within reason of course. TYIA

Correction: I meant to write 39" deep counters, providing 42" space between l/r counters. (120" - 39"*2)

In my opinion 39" deep counters are a mistake for kitchen application. Base cab std depths range from 24"-30" for a reason: If your counters are too deep it will be difficult for short people to reach std depth the wall cabs. Yes, you can make your wall cabs deeper, but cabinets that are too deep make it difficult or inconvenient to reach to the rear portion of your deep counter. There's a reason for std cab sizing, it isn't arbitrary: ergonomics.

I also think that 42" between opposing counters is insufficient, particularly if there is more than one person in the kitchen. My advice is to go with 30" deep counters, 15" deepwall cabinets, and 60" open spacing between the counters.

If you want a modern look to your doors/drawers and don't want to build 5 panel doors, then go with a slab, using a roundover bit to soften the edges.

[Will Blick]

> If your counters are too deep it will be difficult for short people to reach std depth the wall cabs.

I keep addressing this, but maybe I am not explaining it sufficiently. On the uppers, I build a false back, so the cabinets are identical to standard cabinets after installed. The back panel in the cabinet will NOT be the panel against the wall, hence the term false back.

I agree the 42" space between opposing counters is tight for "two" people, if I open that space to 48", which for a small kitchen is roomy enough. Most Galley kitchens are only at 48-50". Now counter depth is 36".... these counters are shrinking fast :-) Still a big improvement IMO vs. standard counters depth, considering how small the space is.

[scott vroom]

If I understand correctly, you're building 24" deep wall cabs with only 12" of usable depth, you're building 36" deep base cabs with 30" drawers that, when fully extended, will be within 18" of the opposing base cabs. What you're going to discover is that with 24" deep wall cabinets over a 36" deep counter the rear 6-12" of your counter will be unusable as a work area but a great place for "stuff" to pile up. But it's your money, your kitchen, you can design it however you want :)

[Michael W. Clark]

Hi Michael, no island here :-)

Maple and SS sure sounds interesting and agrees with my tastes, and love of the lighter hardwood.... any pix of this look? I have never seen these two combined....what part of the cabinet would be stainless? (unless you are talking about the appliances, which will be SS) Frosted glass is also a nice suggestion to rid the "panel" door look...

I think I would do 30" bases (if you want them deeper) and leave 60" for a walkway, but that's just my opinion, its your build.

SS panels in cherry or walnut frames would be cool. You are only limited by your imagination.

[Will Blick]

Yep, that is my prelim. plan....but this thread is making me loose confidence in the plan :-)
I hear ya on the full drawer pull.... as a compromise maybe 3/4 slides on the drawers.
As for the back of the counters, stuff does build up, thats the purpose, more space, without loosing counter work space. Appliance garage covers it all up :-)
I hate small kitchens...

[Will Blick]

Michael, if the 36" doesn't pan out, 30" is the most sensible step down, at least its common slide length...

Do know of any pix of these wood framed SS doors? This sounds very appealing... do you just buy SS sheet and inlay it into a routed recess?

[Sam Murdoch]

Will - here is more free and contradictory advice :rolleyes: - don't compromise on the drawer slides - a 3/4 slide is always a 3/4 slide where as a full ext. slide can be pulled out just 3/4. Add a divider 3/4 of the way back and leave less needed items in the way back, but leave yourself the big pull option if you are to have deep drawers.

[Michael W. Clark]

[QUOTE=Will Blick;1946421]Michael, if the 36" doesn't pan out, 30" is the most sensible step down, at least its common slide length...

Do know of any pix of these wood framed SS doors? This sounds very appealing... do you just buy SS sheet and inlay it into a routed rec"

Do an internet search for pictures or make a mock up. A sheet metal shop could do the fab. Depending on the gauge, you may need to do something to keep the panel tight in the groove.

[Peter Quinn]

I have this image of a clown pulling a scarf out of his pocket, and it just keeps coming...that is what these drawers may be like. I recently did a 48" deep "coffin" drawer under seat in a banquette for pot/pan storage. Happened to be in a 10X10 kitchen. The client went with IKEA cabs, semi gloss full overlay slabs. No uppers, just shelves. Looked pretty sharp. I just made the banquette, with 250# side mounts. But that slides against a wall, and the back of the drawer is by default for "items less used". Nothing like opening a 48" deep drawer into walking space to take out somebody's shins. Routinely only the first 28" or so actually gets pulled out.

As part of this little kitchen remodel, the client went through a "cleansing" period. They threw most of their junk in a box in the garage, and only brought back what they really used and needed. Turns out what most people actually need is not more cabinet space, but less junk in them. I was a professional cook for 14 years, and a chef in a kitchen not much bigger than 10X10 with a line staff of 4-5 working in that space. Lots of refrigeration, lots of open shelving to the ceiling. We did 130 meals each night, that was a lean manufacturing environment. If an object didn't have an immediate reason for its existence, it was removed. Its not the worst practice for the home cook, but it can be tough medicine for a cook that takes great satisfaction in collecting gadgets as most do. All you really need is a sauce pan, a sauté pan, a chef's knife, and a peeler. Maybe a wooden spoon and some scissors can be helpful. The rest is fluff.

A home kitchen is certainly not a direct parallel to a commercial environment, the needs are different. But I can tell you that in my own small home kitchen I can store everything I need to make a meal for 10-20 people and the equipment I need to cook it with in cabinets of standard depth. If I have to pull out more than 22" of drawer, I'm already annoyed. Rather than thinking out side of the box, try getting all the extra stuff out of the box. Walking room and elbow room is to me as important as almost any use of space in a kitchen. One thing I have seen that strikes me is rather than creating a straight line like a galley, to have a 'bump out' area, maybe 36"-42" long, that has a deeper than normal counter depth, maybe 36" deep? Maybe less, but not much more. This give you an area for pushing counter top appliances back a bit, maybe a few deeper drawers for odd shaped things like a pizza peel, sheet trays, really long rolling pins? You see this with farm house sinks, it works well for a work station where a cook might stand and needs the extra counter space. I can't envision what those super deep false back uppers are going to look like where they break around a window or end run. "Honey, I super sized the uppers...but why is there still only 14" of interior depth even though they show 28"?" That would freak my eyes out. But you've done this previously, does that visual work?

I would rather have two walls of cabinets 20" deep than a single wall of cabinets 40" deep, I would move entry ways, windows, even small mountains to accomplish that. I've never really liked the expression "outside the box". From outside a box, unless the whole thing is made of glass, you can't really see what is happening inside the box. Its like being blind folded. Better to squeeze your self into the box, really emerge your self in it. Learn its limitations, its parameters. Understand what factors are truly fixed, and free your self to play completely with all those that remain variable. Of course if you decide to move windows its probably best to then get outside the box and consider the visual effect on exterior elevations......

[Dave Zellers]

I just finished a custom kitchen with 36" base cabs (all drawers) and 24" uppers.


We used these 32" full extension slides from Lee Valley for the base drawers:
http://www.leevalley.com/US/hardware/page.aspx?cat=3,43614,43616&p=46578
Be aware that BIG drawers can accumulate a LOT of weight. The drawers were all 30" wide, about 32" deep and the bottom ones were 15" high. Monsters. We used 5/8" Baltic Birch ply with 1/2" BB bottoms, interlocking rabbit joints, all glued and screwed together with an applied front. Those 200lb slides were awesome.


The uppers had doors and 3 levels of full extension pull outs per the clients request. You needed a step stool to access the top pullout but she was adamant about that being better than having things buried at the back of the top shelf.


I had my doubts about some of the design but when it was done, I was sold. You just have to be willing to pay up for the drawer slides if you are going to go big.


It's a small kitchen and the client is beside herself with joy at how well it all works and how much more storage space she has.

[Dave Zellers]

The rest is fluff.
Words to live by.

And I'll be stealing this line:

Rather than thinking out side of the box, try getting all the extra stuff out of the box.

[Will Blick]

incredible wisdom you guys have, thx to all for sharing.

Peter, understood, but since this is a rental unit and eventually for sale, just trying to make the kitchen as user friendly as possible... I agree with much of what you wrote, and if I could re arrange walls, entryways, etc. I would...not possible, it's a condo. you have to work within the confines of what exists, orig. condo built in 1986... There is no way a Galley would work in this small space...in reality, it almost is a galley, with only a stove/oven/microwave at the far wall... the kitchen is a U, see pix below. Oh, btw, the false backs are a non-issue... I put the false back 14" back, you open cabinet, you would never know something is different....well, "you" would of course :-)

Dave, you are my savior !! I was almost ready to "throw the towel in" on this idea, and go buy BORG cabinets... hee hee... but I really felt this "enlarged" design would make a very tiny kitchen into a very usable kitchen, and you kind of confirmed this. How much space did you have between opposing counter tops? I would appreciate any insights on that.

After reviewing Riches link I envisioned how one wall of cabinets might look.... all pull outs, so no false backs, no wasted space....

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I thought the added height of the counter tops would be helpful to keep the utensil drawer and lower drawer pull out of reasonable size... In the pix above, its also a very small kitchen, I think the NON panel doors makes the cabinets appear "less crowded", very nice IMO. I think top pull outs is the best way to take advantage of the extra space. As mentioned, I can go with max. slide, as you don't have to pull all the way out.

Tennant won't be out for another month, here is a snap I found of the existing kitchen... as you can see, its basically the drawers by the range/oven I am removing. The oven is 30", at 36" bases, this leaves 18" around the range, 9" on each side. The new fridge will have french doors to reduce foot print.

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[Dave Zellers]

Will, there is only 36" between the cabinet wall and the island. To fully pull out a drawer in the base cabs, you have to stand to the side. For the owner, it was all about maximizing storage. This house is also rented out for the summer months. It's next to a saltwater marsh with a gorgeous view.

We went from this:
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To this:

235201235195235196235197235198

For the trash pullout we used a 400lb full extension slide. Just the pullout itself was ridiculously heavy. Even tho the 4 trash bins fit perfectly into the pullout, she had me make a divider that would isolate each one. I love how she tucked the bags neatly inside the divider.

I said the base cabs were 36" but actually the counter was 36". We eliminated the kick space and pushed the bottom drawer down to only 1 1/2" off the floor and extended the counter over the cabinet by 3" to allow for a toe space. So the base cab was actually 33" and the drawers about 32". It's a very small space with a lot of storage.

[Van Huskey]

Will are you near Atlanta or already plan to attend IWF. If so the number of new ideas displayed there is amazing.

[Will Blick]

Dave, thx for pix, very nice job...you sorta did what I am after, maximizing cabinet space in a small foot print... 36" of air space shows it can be done. The key is, ya gotta accept, just one chef in the kitchen at a time :-). I will prob. have a bit more air space. Sure, there is some compromises to accomplish this, like standing to the side of drawers pulled out, I think its a fair trade off. I have used some heavy duty slides before, some must have weighed 80 lbs, they were rated at 500lbs IIRC... PITA, hard to install.

Van, can't hit IWF this year... I have visited many times in the past, but never with this project in mind. This thread has been helpful... I think my basic premise is sensible...I will present it to the other condo owners, and mock up the kitchen so the space can be felt...

[Paul Johnstone]

Yes, 42" deep, as in your hip to wall measurement :-). I also plan to build them 6" higher than standard, I have done this on 3 other kitchens, not a single person notices the added height, they all find it "more pleasant"...yes, I am slightly tall, but more importantly, hate bending over.
t.

So 42" deep and about 40.5" high (before countertop).
Make sure you're going to be able to get them into the kitchen from the shop.. most doorways are only 36" wide.
Sorry if you have already figured this out, and I am pointing out the obvious..

How deep are you going to make your uppers? Are you going to be able to reach them if the lowers are 42" deep?

[Will Blick]

Hi Paul.... yes, I have considered the entry - through large sliding door 48" wide... thx
I know this thread got long, and many people don't read through the threads b4 posting.... the base cabinet depth has been reduced somewhat after many posts, prob. 36". As mentioned above, uppers will all be pull-outs to gain storage area. The depth of uppers will be ~12" shorter than the lowers, so it would have the same feel as standard upper / lower cabinets. I will tweak the counter-top height, based on number of drawers on base cabinets. Hopefully, at most, only a few inches higher than 36" standard...

[scott vroom]

Yes, 42" deep, as in your hip to wall measurement :-). I also plan to build them 6" higher than standard, I have done this on 3 other kitchens, not a single person notices the added height, they all find it "more pleasant"...yes, I am slightly tall, but more importantly, hate bending over.

42" tall counters is a big mistake. The average height of a woman in the United States is 5'4". Using ergonomic charts, this places an average-height woman's elbow at 39" from the floor, which means an avg height woman will have to bend her arms outward to allow the forearms to extend level over the counter top. That, IMO, is a bad design. Is your customer at all concerned about potential resale value?

[Will Blick]

Scott, thx for your contributions, all this was addressed above, in many posts... I have compromised the base cabinet height down, within a few inches of standard.

Although when I have installed kitchens at 38-40" counter heights, never a single complaint from women 5'4".... and certainly NEVER a complaint from men. Very few people ever notice it...I have to tell them. I think these slight tweaks are over-blown. But 10 years ago, I wasn't so sure, till I have witnessed peoples reactions. I have all my work surfaces in my work shop at 44", including my TS, and i am only 6'3".

However, I do agree if you make the counters deep, you must be very careful with the counter height, as "reaching" will become an issue...so it's one or the other, or a slight mix of both. And remember also, the backs of these counters is really just storage, which appliance garages cover. Its not like you do your cutting and chopping 36" away. The few times you have to reach for something, the item has depth itself, so you are never reaching the entire distance.

Many cabinet builders have jigs that make everything to standard height n depths. Then, BORG cabinets and RTA cabinets, all conform to standards, which makes perfect sense, and explains the the biggest reason (IMO) there is such conformity.

For me, its no different building a 24" deep cabinet, vs. 30" or 36"... all custom cutting regardless of size. Layout and mark sheet and place Festool Rails on sheet, and cut away! Lots of my tall friends 6'3"+ all complain about bending over constantly in kitchens and bathrooms. If re-sale wasn't an issue, maybe we would see slightly higher counters... I am only talking a few inches here. The standard toilet height was recently raised from 14" to 17", this is a 20% increase in standard height. If you applied the same to kitchen counters, it would add 7" of height !!

added....Just to be clear, I am not advocating 7" increase in counter height, the point is, heights of everything raise over time. I was touring George Washington's houses along the Delaware River, I had to duck under every door jamb...I bet the door jamb height was 5'8 - 5'10" max.

[phil harold]

24" deep wall cabinets over a 36" deep counter the rear 6-12" of your counter will be unusable as a work area but a great place for "stuff" to pile up. But it's your money, your kitchen, you can design it however you want :)
I like this idea, the deep counter top

Always seems the coffee maker, toaster and other small appliances are always on the counter, which actually steal valuable counter space when trying to prepare a big meal

[Will Blick]

well, 2 supporters now :-)

[Steve Griffin]

...Its not like you do your cutting and chopping 36" away. The few times you have to reach for something, the item has depth itself, so you are never reaching the entire distance.



Unless you need to plug that item in or clean the counter.

My favorite depth is 27-30" for counters, as 25" is too small. I'd never go 39".

[Glen Blanchard]

The first thing to think of when building a house is selling it. The same principal applies to upgrades/remodels. If it's too far from the mean, it's a liability.

[Michael W. Clark]

I kind of like the idea of the 30" deep cabinets, especially for the space. If your space is 10' wide and you do standard cabinets, you will have about 6' of open space between them. If you do the 30" cabinets, you will have 5' between, still plenty of room and you added 25% more storage (if my math is right). You may have to think ahead on you plywood cuts to get the best yield. Your not going to get two 30" rips out of one 48" sheet of ply. :)

You may be able to rip your base sides out on one side and then the sides and bottoms for the uppers with what's left, but I'm sure you will figure all that out.

Mike

[George Gyulatyan]

Also, i am so tired of seeing raised panel doors on everything in houses these days... even pressed doors are simulated raised panels. I want a modern type feel, no shaker style kitchens... any suggestions on alternative cabinet door / drawer faces, which are unique and attractive? It's not a bid job, so cost is not a major concern, within reason of course. TYIA

You might want to do a search for "Thermofoil Cabinets". We did our kitchen with those, slab doors, very euro feel, easy to clean and looks sharp. I hear you on the raised panel/traditional look. Not my cup of tea either.

I am also with you on higher and deeper counter tops than "Standard". I hate working on standard height kitchen counters... rather I should say, my back hates that. I wish they were about 3-4 inch higher and I am 5/11". I am also with you on deeper cabinets/countertops although 39" maybe an overkill. You did go down to around 36" or so in subsequent posts and I think that should work well.

My 0.02$

[Will Blick]

Mike, I haven't got down to the sheet layout yet :-(
Some types of veneered ply, I can get 5x10' with enough advanced notice, sometimes that reduces waste. I will tackle that after the concept is approved.

George, I have used Thermofoil white doors in the past, but they had a pattern routed in them, which looks good due to their large size. For this project, I prob. prefer the clean look of slab as you suggest. The thermofoils stay clean and don't warp, ideal for this project...need to learn more about colors, thicknesses, etc. thx for the endorsement of the higher / deeper bases... I agree, on your 3-4" as ideal height increase.....not enough to bother the short ladies, but very helpful for most people around 6'+. OK, so you have the very short lady who struggles to reach the back of the deep counter, trade-offs, trade-offs....

[Zach Callum]

This makes zero sense. Are the bottoms of your uppers at 60"? Do you build your uppers 30" deep? What are you using for drawer glides? At that depth your options are limited. Also, you're kidding yourself if you think that it makes no difference whether you build 24,30, or 36" deep. Do you charge the same amount for a 36" deep drawer bank as you do for a 24" deep drawer bank?

[Zach Callum]

That wouldn't pass code where I live. You need 42" of clearance.

[Will Blick]

Zach, "what" would not pass code? 42" clearance where?

All your questions are answered in the above thread....this has been a collaboration, helping me narrow down what's best in this shoe-box kitchen.

AS for charging $, I do not build cabinets for a living, I only do my own jobs, (flipper) and do favors for friends and family. So everyone gets a sweet deal from me, I enjoy the work.

[Paul Johnstone]

well, 2 supporters now :-)

lol at the "2 supporters" comment.. we I am interested in how this kitchen comes out.. It's nice to see you trying to think of something different.
Be sure and post pictures of what you end up with.

[phil harold]

well, 2 supporters now :-)I also like making closets 3' deep coats and whatnots hang in front and shelves behind for other stuff

[Will Blick]

2.5 supporters? :-) I know, closets are a stretch, but I think its worth a 1/2 vote...
I am seeing an upward trend here :-)

[Carl Beckett]

I have this image of a clown pulling a scarf out of his pocket, and it just keeps coming...that is what these drawers may be like. I recently did a 48" deep "coffin" drawer under seat in a banquette for pot/pan storage. Happened to be in a 10X10 kitchen. The client went with IKEA cabs, semi gloss full overlay slabs. No uppers, just shelves. Looked pretty sharp. I just made the banquette, with 250# side mounts. But that slides against a wall, and the back of the drawer is by default for "items less used". Nothing like opening a 48" deep drawer into walking space to take out somebody's shins. Routinely only the first 28" or so actually gets pulled out.

As part of this little kitchen remodel, the client went through a "cleansing" period. They threw most of their junk in a box in the garage, and only brought back what they really used and needed. Turns out what most people actually need is not more cabinet space, but less junk in them. I was a professional cook for 14 years, and a chef in a kitchen not much bigger than 10X10 with a line staff of 4-5 working in that space. Lots of refrigeration, lots of open shelving to the ceiling. We did 130 meals each night, that was a lean manufacturing environment. If an object didn't have an immediate reason for its existence, it was removed. Its not the worst practice for the home cook, but it can be tough medicine for a cook that takes great satisfaction in collecting gadgets as most do. All you really need is a sauce pan, a sauté pan, a chef's knife, and a peeler. Maybe a wooden spoon and some scissors can be helpful. The rest is fluff.

A home kitchen is certainly not a direct parallel to a commercial environment, the needs are different. But I can tell you that in my own small home kitchen I can store everything I need to make a meal for 10-20 people and the equipment I need to cook it with in cabinets of standard depth. If I have to pull out more than 22" of drawer, I'm already annoyed. Rather than thinking out side of the box, try getting all the extra stuff out of the box. Walking room and elbow room is to me as important as almost any use of space in a kitchen. One thing I have seen that strikes me is rather than creating a straight line like a galley, to have a 'bump out' area, maybe 36"-42" long, that has a deeper than normal counter depth, maybe 36" deep? Maybe less, but not much more. This give you an area for pushing counter top appliances back a bit, maybe a few deeper drawers for odd shaped things like a pizza peel, sheet trays, really long rolling pins? You see this with farm house sinks, it works well for a work station where a cook might stand and needs the extra counter space. I can't envision what those super deep false back uppers are going to look like where they break around a window or end run. "Honey, I super sized the uppers...but why is there still only 14" of interior depth even though they show 28"?" That would freak my eyes out. But you've done this previously, does that visual work?

I would rather have two walls of cabinets 20" deep than a single wall of cabinets 40" deep, I would move entry ways, windows, even small mountains to accomplish that. I've never really liked the expression "outside the box". From outside a box, unless the whole thing is made of glass, you can't really see what is happening inside the box. Its like being blind folded. Better to squeeze your self into the box, really emerge your self in it. Learn its limitations, its parameters. Understand what factors are truly fixed, and free your self to play completely with all those that remain variable. Of course if you decide to move windows its probably best to then get outside the box and consider the visual effect on exterior elevations......

Wish I could get some of your philosophy adopted by my wife. We share cooking ( I like to cook), but 'we' ( meaning her) just collect more more more 'stuff'.

Kitchen design is part technical, part aesetic, and part marriage counseling

[Zach Callum]

I was referring to Daves post, where he said that there was only 36" between the cabinets and the island. That would not pass code here, it would need to be 42". That is not to say that it wouldn't pass code where you are. I'm sure that everyone gets some kind of deal from you.

[Will Blick]

ahhh, I too fell for the "less is more" post, and I actually do agree with the basic premise..... I am not a foodie, per say, but somehow I amass a lot of kitchen junk, I guess I am a tool junkie no matter what the craft...

[Rich Engelhardt]

Also, i am so tired of seeing raised panel doors on everything in houses these days... even pressed doors are simulated raised panels. I want a modern type feel, no shaker style kitchens... any suggestions on alternative cabinet door / drawer faces, which are unique and attractive?
You probably aren't alone there....IMHO - based on what I see in kitchen displays.
Oak is out, maple , painted and cherry are in.

The raised panels could very well remind a whole lot of people of what they had when they were in their "entertaining phase" & had to show off what they had - and - now have lost to forclosure...
Now, the only thing a lot of them can afford to "entertain" is a gas pump...

Everybody on those house flipping and house renovation TV shows always wanted to "entertain". It used to bug me when people would give that as a priority when lloking for a house or trying to decide how to renovate.
They don't really say that anymore...

Since you're in the planning stage, let me toss out
- the 32mm system - very adaptable.
- Ikea their showroom and/or their website.
- Glass doors for the uppers. Personally, I think glass doors and lighted shelves really look sharp & classy. Glass doors w/out the lights on inside look sharp too - in a different way.

FWIW - chalk me up as another supporter.
I give you a lot of credit for being an astute observer that changes are taking place & trying to figure out how best to integrate everything.

[Steve Griffin]

To answer the opening post question about non-frame and panel styles:

I'm also seeing more interest in flat panel contemporary style

I have 5 methods of doing these:

1)Custom veneer work. Matched veneers across each run. Hardwood embedded around the perimeter edge, with veneer on top. Runs about $50/square foot.

2)Factory veneer ply with wood edge banding around perimeter

3)Apple ply or Ply boo. No need to hide edge grain with these products.

4)Factory veneer sheetgoods with MDF core with no edge banding at all. Raw MDF edge doesn't look too bad, and this works well for utility grade cabinets.

5)Solid wood. This is really risky, but I've made cabinets with simple vertical slabs of real wood. Doors are limited to 12" wide, and I'd only use stable woods such as vertical grain fir or quarter sawn oak.

[Will Blick]

Hi Rich, thx for the encouraging words.... we are on the same page.... OAK cabinets with 5 panel doors remind me of emerging 1960's housing boom. Its possible the 5 panel door just ran its course, some of us tired of it faster than others. However, a poster on this forum showed a BloodWood traditional 5 panel door traditional kitchen that was gorgeous. So, to make a very attractive and modern look today with traditional cabinets, it could take great layout and some exotic woods. The bar is continually raised. Based on the responses here, many people still love traditional kitchens of traditional sizing.

Ikea web site pretty amazing, but I could not find any custom sizing on base and uppers. The kitchen planner is superb for the homeowner to design n build their own kitchen. Kudos to Ikea.... the trend is, make everything DIY in this declining economy and Ikea is the best website I have seen for such. Also, I will consider the glass look, but as for now, I am liking the consistency in look between the uppers and lower cabs.

Steve, I thought about the factory, pre finished veneer with hardwood edges... how do you apply the hardwood edges so they don't appear "mismatched" or an "after thought to cover an edge".... I thought about a contrasting wood color, but it would appear to busy... I am curious your thoughts on this, even if not for this project, I often struggle with making hardwood edging look as if it was a design intent, vs. "covering up an edge".

You mention apply ply / ply boo, no need to cover the edges... I have seen this a few times, but not on cabinet doors... this can be nice on some projects, but I think would look unfinished on these large doors... here is best pix I could find of such for those interested... is this what you were referring to?

235416

Of all the pix I viewed so far, it seems MDF panels with slight edge treatment and emphasis on finishing technique seems ideal. I like the high gloss look, like a piano finish, but not sure if any door makers apply this type of finish. Any cabinet door makers that apply this finish? Prob. beyond my finishing skills.

total endorses now 4.5 and growing :-)

[Steve Griffin]

Will,
The way I edge band factory ply products is apply 1/4" solid wood band around each door/drawer, and then final size each door/drawer so that only 1/8" or less remains. It virtually disappears with the grain, but not along the cross grain areas--it always looks like edgebanded plywood. You could also hire out conventional edgebanding, which is thinner, but I'd worry it would someday fail in an exposed kitchen environment.

As mentioned, really the proper way to do a flat door is custom veneer work--you get complete control over grain and the veneer is much thicker. I hire this out to specialty shops.

Below is a pic of dark stained Jatoba flat panels which were edge banded, and because of the dark stain the edge banding almost disappeared. The second pic is of a vanity I made for our house, which is a hybrid of flat panel bamboo with a lyptus frame around the perimeter.

Frame and panel doors are not just a fashion statement, they are a time tested way to build which takes into account wood movement. Going against this always feels like fighting nature to me.

[George Gyulatyan]

it seems MDF panels with slight edge treatment and emphasis on finishing technique seems ideal. I like the high gloss look, like a piano finish, but not sure if any door makers apply this type of finish. Any cabinet door makers that apply this finish? Prob. beyond my finishing skills.

total endorses now 4.5 and growing :-)

Not exactly a piano finish, but I've gotten a really nice glossy black on plywood by doing this:
1. 5-6 coats of 1.5lb cut of shellac, mainly used as grain sealer.
2. General Finishes Lamp Black milk paint. 3 coats, sanded between coats.
3. Topcoat with General Finishes PolyCrylic Gloss. 3 coats, sanded between coats, buff/polish after it cures for about a week or so.

Would work much better on MDF, although i'd still recommend several coats of shellac as the base so MDF doesn't get affected too much by water based finishes (if you're using water based that is.... being in CA, I pretty much have to).

[George Gyulatyan]

Steve, that vanity looks beautiful. So do the cabinets.

[Will Blick]

Steve, you definitely have creative / artistic ww mindset ! Very refreshing to see! Gorgeous pix, thx for sharing.

Good point regarding the dark drawer fronts, I can see hardwood edge banding working, as its hard to see very fine variance vs. a brighter color drawer front. I love the Vanity, one of the nicest contrasting wood combos I ever recall seeing. I might have to try that wood combo on some upcoming projects.

While I agree frame n panel doors are good defense against wood movement, I think the modern dense MDF single panel doors which are nicely coated can be equally attractive, and maybe more stable through the years. At least that is my "new thinking" towards projects. I need to improve my paint skills, or sub out the finishing, or just buy the doors n drawer fronts from a big maker who can finish how I like them.... prob. better consistency than I could ever accomplish, and, one less component to deal with. And the doors / drawer fronts is what gets noticed the most.

thx for the valuable input and ideas...

Thx George for the finishing tips... right now, I am leaning towards sub'in out the doors, maybe I will change my mind after I see the prices...