How do contractors buy construction lumber?

[Stephen Tashiro]

How do contractors buy construction lumber to build an entire house? I assume they must order it in large quantities. Is it the same "grade" as is found on the shelves and bins of hardware stores? A large amount lumber on display in hardware stores is warped or cracked. If contractors receive that quality of lumber, I don't understand how they build anything straight.

[Ron Natalie]

Depends on the contractor. Some smaller guys do pick through the stuff at the borgs. Most however, deal with local lumber suppliers who can provide consistently better quality than what you find left over at the home centers. You can get longer lengths than you typically find at the home centers as well.

[Van Huskey]

When I GCed my own house I ordered more than I needed from a good lumberyard, any culls were returned for credit on the next delivery.

[Rick Fisher]

I have been selling lumber to contractors since I was a kid..

Typically the wood sold at a Borg is end tagged with a bar code scanner .. not a big deal but lots of mills wont do it .. So borg wood comes from big mills which cut everything.. Canfor, LP .. Weyerhauser ..

In our market, we buy studs from Stud mills.. Full truckloads.. They are bought on both price and quality .. A good quality stud mill will get $10 -$15 per msf more than a cheap stud mill... If you ship a builder a load of crap studs, they usually freak out ..

2x10 is the same.. If used for joist, its a sensitive item ..

With studs, they will tolerate a certain amount of lousy ones because they get cut up for cripples and used for back framing ..

Plates are the least sensitive .. but still, too much wain and you get complaints..

I believe that construction lumber should be stored outside.. in the rain and humidity .. Taking it inside dries it out too much .. it cracks, warps and splits, then it takes on moisture when its taken back outside..

Very few builders will buy lumber, roofing, drywall or insulation at a borg.. The lumber is usually crap and they don't keep all the sizes.. the roofing needs to be delivered to the roof .. lol.. Drywall needs to be delivered into the house, in the rooms.. and borgs are expensive on insulation.. Like crazy .. Since we got a borg in our area, we match their " retail " insulation prices and its our most profitable sku.. by a country mile.. Margin is huge and the dollars add up fast..

We sell to insulators, they buy it about 35% cheaper than retail..

[Jim Andrew]

If you are building your own house, go to a contractor yard and tell them what you are building, and talk to their salesman. Fill out the paperwork so you can buy without writing a check for every load. Then, instead of calling the yard, call the salesman when you need material. He will get it delivered timely, rather than after everybody else has their stuff. If he stops by jobsites, let him know he can stop by and help you get the right amounts of material. Some of these salesmen can help you greatly, just by making sure you get your stuff as you need it, and in the proper quantities. If you are buying a whole building, you will get a good price. You can shop on details, but on the major building material, it helps to go with a yard that is helpful, and there is very little to be saved in shopping around.

[Ira Matheny]

BORGS cannot and do not give the detailed service as do the local lumber yard. Altho local lumber yards 'Seem' more expensive, the are not. I've been a Gen Contractor for over 35 years and am amazed at the number of small time contractors that think they are saving $$ at the borg. THEY R NOT. [but dont' tell them. That way they will never be any competition to us real contractors]
When dealing with a full service lumber yard/dealer, defective materials will be promptly credited. When I have a problem, the salesman shows up to help mitigate this problem.

Try that with a borg.

[Rick Fisher]

Ira is absolutely right ..

A builder becomes known in a building supply store pretty fast.. A few dozen builders and sub trades quickly make up 50% of the store's annual sales.. We stock 5/8" no groove ranchwall because a single contractor likes using it for gables.. Our store recommends contractors to people for reno's and new homes.. Its like a partnership...

The framing part of the house is pretty small in the big picture.. Builders order windows, doors, hardwood flooring and they like to deal with the same people, over and over again..

Around here the Borgs attract the weekend warriors.. The renovators that cant get an account because they don't pay their bills.. We still, once a year, get those homeowners who buy 8000 feet of drywall at the Borg and it gets forklifted on the driveway .. I love those people.. They pack in 10 - 12 sheets and then come to our place wanting to know what we will charge to send a crew to finish the job.. lol

About once a month, I will do small woodworking projects for builders that I really like.. Favors.. Walnut handrail parts.. Odd maple parts .. wooden counter tops.. whatever.. Its a relationship thing .. The employees at the yard actually become friends with some of the builders... it makes it a cool business.

I had a pretty big builder come to me 3 weeks ago, the architect decided they needed 96 x 1/2 x 1/2 walnut square plugs in the stair treads.. He agreed calmly but had no idea how it would be done on site in a timely manner .. I loaned him my Lee Valley Greene and Greene punch for 3 days and made him the walnut square stock with my sander .. He was thrilled... When he gave it back, he said it was dull and I should order a new one, give him the bill. Very gracious.. I told him I would just sharpen it instead.. lol.

[Rich Engelhardt]

Around here the Borgs attract the weekend warriors.. The renovators that cant get an account because they don't pay their bills..
Or ones such as myself & my wife that sort of fall between the cracks...
We don't do enough volume on a constant basis to deal with the better yards - the ones that don't sell retail.
It really sucks big time to have to deal with the borgs.
What bugs me more than the "less than quality" material they stock is the sheer amount of time wasted when dealing with them.

Then there's the problems of running short of materials - only to find that what I've been using all along is no longer carried...
I installed 10 can lights I picked up from Lowes a few years ago. One went bad & when I went back to get another, Lowes had dropped it.
They had a replacement - but - the new one needed new trim rings since the rings from the old one didn't fit.
A simple $10 fix became a $30 fix - (snap of fingers) just like that - plus the waste of time involved finding this out the hard way...

Time is money & places like Lowes just don't grasp the concept that I don't have all the time in the world to hunt around the store for simple items, then stand in line while Mrs. Jones gets a price check on her flat of Petunias....

+1 (or is it 2,3 or 4 ?) to the above.
A real yard will cater to a contractor & have real sales people (not some guy they drag over from the plumbing department).

The downside is that, for the "little guy", we have to pretty much suck it up and take our lumps from the borg...
After all though - fair is fair.
To a full time contractor,,,,I'm Mrs. Jones and her flat of petunias...
It costs a big guy $$ to have to wait while my small order gets filled...

Edit to add - dang it, I forgot all about a place like Terry Lumber. (shame on me since they're my "go to" place...)
Terry Lumber is sort of a cross over. They have top quality materials, cheaper than the borg & with a great staff.
They cater to small to medium sized customers.
They're priced higher than a pure no retail yard, but, mostly under what the borg is on most materials.
There's simply no comparison in quality though.
Terry sells poplar for about the same price the borg charges for pine.
Even though they sell retail - their retail business is a pretty small part.

[Larry Edgerton]

We have a yard here, Preston Feather Lumber, maybe not quite as good as Ricks yard I'd say, but with the same sort of service. They are the last one. If they go out of business I am going to quit. I can not and will not deal with the Borg. Life is too short.

When the Borg first moved in customers would insist that I get a quote from them. They are consistantly 20% more across the board, and the material is junk. Add to that that no one there knows what they are talking about, and I do not have the time to waste. I am not going to walk around a warehouse with a cart, I am going to call up a sales and have what I want delivered without haveing to explain what it is first. If they insist these days I tell them I will not waste my time, and that is that.

Nothing against doing it yourself, but the Borg has drug down standards as homeowners ask the morons that work there for advise, and they know about as much about building as your average dentist. Well, maybe less, as they do not seem to attract the top of the class. What they do know is what they have gleamed from manufacturers and the sale department. Both of which lie. If you always believe what you read in advertisements, then the Borg is your kind of place. I have seen the latest/greatest building products come out and fail/disappear more times than I can count in my lifetime of building. Even codes, that are lobbied for by manufacturers are not always correct.

So a homeowner is up against a sea of misinformation, and when they walk in to a Borg, they are not correcting that problem as they, the Borg, are not interested in long term relationships, just what the stocks are doing at the end of the next quarter. You can not get correct information at the Borg, because there is no one there that actually knows what they are talking about. The ones around here usually have a token builder on board so they can send out idiots to do installs on his licence, hence no liability on their part, and the builder is always one that failed. So you have 150 clerks/stockboys and one failed builder. Great concept!

You can't even buy the lumber I use at the Borg, they will not stock it. I use all hemlock framing material in walls as I do not like callbacks and my yard stocks it for the contractors that do the kind of work I do. And I don't have to use a cart....

In case you haven't figured out what I am saying, I would suggest that you ask some better builders where they purchase their lumber, and go there.

Larry

[Rich Engelhardt]

So you have 150 clerks/stockboys and one failed builder. Great concept!

LOL!
It gets even better than that...
I used to work at one of the original borgs - Bulider's Square - way back when.

What amazed me was how they would hire managers - from retailers that were either gone belly up or well on thier way to belly up.
Thre's good reasons why places like Zayers and Gold Circle folded.
Since builders Square bellied up too, I guess they found out the hard way that's not a great concept.


I am not going to walk around a warehouse with a cart,
Dang I think you nailed it!!!!
I don't like pushing a cart around either. It doesn't feel "right".

IMHO - a good way to ID a place were a builder or contractor buys would be a lack of shopping carts.

I like it!

[Bob Lloyd]

I get all my lumber, plywood etc. from the local lumber yard but that is only part of the project. The windows, cabinets, siding, insulation, drywall etc are monetarily much more than the framing. Many of them will take off a material list from an architects set of prints. They will deliver it in stages as you need it, unload it where you want it and use a boom truck if you request it. I expect the same service from a small addition to a whole house. All of the lumber yards around here, except one, cater to contractors and homeowners alike. With an account, I get a discount, as would you. If you are building a house I would advise going to a real lumber yard. As others have stated that is where the real knowledge and help can be found. Good luck.

[John Coloccia]

When someone asks me about building and fixing electronics, I tell them "don't buy anything at Radio Shack and you'll be off to a good start". When someone asks me about building things, I tell them "don't buy anything at Home Depot or Lowes, and you'll be off to a good start.

I am always stunned at how lousy the quality of wood at the BORG is. Sometimes I HAVE to go there because I need an item NOW and they happen to have it, but I seldom shop there anymore and certainly NEVER for wood. I'm fortunate to have a high quality building supplier just a few minutes away from my house (I'll give a little plug for Sanford and Hawley in Connecticut), and they cater to everyone, including small fries like me. Not only that, but they are incredibly helpful even though I just buy a handful of items every year, mostly for jig building. Their prices are great too, btw. Last time I was in there, I needed a bunch of A/BB 3/4" ply for some jig building, and they had a bunch of 2X2 sheets cut already (exactly the size I needed). When I went to pay for it (you pay, and then you or someone else gathers it up and takes it to your car) the guy noticed, "Hey, you're buying enough of these that it would be cheaper to just buy an 8' sheet and have us cut it up". I think he saved me about $20. Now that's great service considering I only give him about $200 or $300 of business a year. Oh, and their wood is actually STRAIGHT...I don't have to dig through a pile to find the one sheet of ply that's not bent in half, or that one stud that isn't bent like a pretzel. I've placed larger orders with them when I built my shop and didn't have to worry that they would deliver a pile of junk.

I really scratch my head anytime I'm in the BORG and I see contractors walking around looking for things. What the heck? Don't they know where the plumbing supply place is? Don't they know where the electrical supply place is? Don't they know where the lumber supplier is? I don't do any construction work at all yet I know where all these guys are use them almost exclusively. I'm with Larry. Even at my level where I use construction materials mainly for jig and shop furniture building, the idea of walking around a warehouse with a shopping cart and then picking through junk material just strikes me as an incredibly poor way to use my time.

[Dan Friedrichs]

I really scratch my head anytime I'm in the BORG and I see contractors walking around looking for things. What the heck? Don't they know where the plumbing supply place is? Don't they know where the electrical supply place is? Don't they know where the lumber supplier is?

John, tell me where these places are :) I'm no contractor, but I've been doing a lot of renovation/additions to my own house, and have been having a hard time finding places other than the BORGs. I'm in metro Denver, so it should be easy, but I'm having a hard time.

I'm starting a deck project, so I thought "for sure, this time I'll shop at a real lumber yard". So I emailed a few retail-friendly-looking yards in the area, asking for some prices, and haven't heard back from any.

As much as I HATE Lowes/HD, I really like being able to pull up products on their website, seeing what's stocked, and seeing prices.

[Harry Hagan]

Ira and Rick are right.

Borgs have not been good for the general public. They come into most towns; undercut the local small lumber yards and hardware stores to run the little guy out of business. That might take a few years but eventually when there's no more competition, the borg cuts staff, raises prices and now you're stuck with poor quality lumber, lousy service, and outrageous prices.

Last summer I helped a friend renovate and add onto his lake cabin out in the sticks. We went with the full-service local lumber yard down the road. Like the "Mom and Pop" place I helped manage back in the 70s and 80s. The lumber was top notch and prices were much cheaper than the borg down the street from my house. When I say "full-service" I mean they were well informed, didn't promise to do something they had no intention of following through with, helped you load materials and actually delivered when you needed it; for a nominal charge.

A concept totally foreign to borg management.

[John Coloccia]

John, tell me where these places are :) I'm no contractor, but I've been doing a lot of renovation/additions to my own house, and have been having a hard time finding places other than the BORGs. I'm in metro Denver, so it should be easy, but I'm having a hard time.

I'm starting a deck project, so I thought "for sure, this time I'll shop at a real lumber yard". So I emailed a few retail-friendly-looking yards in the area, asking for some prices, and haven't heard back from any.

As much as I HATE Lowes/HD, I really like being able to pull up products on their website, seeing what's stocked, and seeing prices.

Don't email them. Go in person with a list or call them. These guys don't live on e-mail. The ones I know (and this goes for most of these kinds of places...HVAC, paint suppliers, electronics, lumber, plumbing, etc etc) pick up the phone, take the order and prepare it for pickup or ship it. It's almost like an auto parts store. You don't send countless e-mails back and forth. You call and order the part, and the runner delivers the part.

You want to know where the pros go? First, find the local construction material supplier. I'm sure someone in the Denver area will chime in here to let you know where to go (I hope, anyhow). When you get there to place your order, ask them where people go for plumbing and electrical stuff. When you get to the plumbing place, ask them where people go for lumber and electrical stuff. When you get to the electrical place...well, you get the picture. If they give a different supplier than ones you've already heard of, ask about the ones you know about. Pretty soon, you'll have a complete picture of who's got good prices, who's difficult to work with, who everyone likes working with, etc etc.

Some will not want to deal with people who aren't businesses. I have a business so at least I can give that, but some will give you a hard time anyway:

them: "We only do business with plumbers, not guitar builders"
me: "I install guitar shaped plumbing systems for eccentric millionaires and I have cash. Do you want to make a sale or not?"

They laugh, enter me into their system, and then once I'm in I never have anymore trouble.

[Dan Friedrichs]

Don't email them. Go in person with a list or call them.

Fair enough. But hopefully you see how this very different business model (in-person vs. online, word-of-mouth vs. well-advertised) doesn't easily appeal to some. I'd pay a high premium for a lumberyard who sold stuff using something like McMaster's website. The only reason I ever go to the BORG is because I know that I'm encouraged to look around (vs. lumberyard where I need to know what I want because everything is squirreled away in a warehouse without prices listed). And I don't have to put up with the "only sells to the trades" BS.

[Rick Fisher]

I am surprised there are still lumberyards or even wholesalers who won't sell to the public.. That mantra died a long time ago.. I would suspect that its dead but just hasn't fallen down yet in some areas.. lol

On the " Too small " to deal there attitude.. Remember your dealing with people at a lumberyard.. Most of them have a huge amount of freedom, unlike the Borgs.. That fella who discounted John's 2x2 plywood is a great example. You can do that at almost every lumberyard.. you cant make a decision like that working at a borg.

So your dealing with people.. Blow some smoke up one of the employees butts.. I see smart carpenters do it all the time .. lol Treat them like friends and you will be shocked how you suddenly become an important customer. People like people who like them.. They are simple that way ..

In many cases, the big builders all deal with 2-3 people.. All the other employees are there to service the rest, and keep the place going.. Yet those people behind the counter can treat you very well, and usually have more freedom to operate than the actual manager of a Borg.

Many of the medium sized builders or large one's can be unpleasant to deal with .. Certainly not all.. but many .. Being a really nice guy can make you a pretty important customer to the people working there ..

In our place, we have about 50% female staff.. They always resent men who push them aside to talk to one of the guys.. or treat them like they are less smart because they are female.. Typically the older a contractor is, the more likely he is to act that way.. Not always true.. You can be the smallest renovator in the world but if you treat the ladies at a lumberyard with respect, your golden.

[phil harold]

how to find a real lumber yard...
go downtown find the railroad track
Old lumber yards used to and some still have spurs for the railroad
Lumber yard will give you decent prices on materials, windows, and roofing
Drywall supply will deliver and stack it on all floors

Watch the lumber yards on things like nails and screws, some times 4 times the price of the borg

[Ole Anderson]

We all have had bad experiences with the BORGs. But every once in a while I have a good experience from someone who really knows their stuff. You know, you get a guy in electrical that is actually a licensed electrical tradesmen who needs some extra cash, or in my experience today, a guy in millworks that happens to have worked for years in a local window company (still does and actually seems to have some of the ownership) that actually makes windows and also sells a full line of other's windows and doors. Times are tough in Michigan in the home building trades and supply chain and folks like this are just trying to make ends meet. Sure you have to sort thru the piles to get decent lumber and I full well know why only beginner contractors will deal with them. But the home box stores fill a need for DIY folks and wannabe builders that are intimidated by dealing with the real lumber companies that often make it known they would really rather deal with the bigger contractors. So there are 2 sides to the story.

[ian maybury]

The trade vs retail vs box store thing is a big issue over here too - although in our case the choice is usually between dealing with a big trade distributor, or going retail through one of the box stores - with the odd old style family business in there. We don't really get primary producers like lumber yards (there are a few doing other construction stuff, but the home market is usually small part of their business) because our market is so small.

The stocking and layout policies of the box stores are typically unfathomable - clearly the work of accountants and the like that know nothing about what they are calling the shots on. Located many miles away from any store. It's not uncommon to find a whole aisle of variations on something daft like coat hooks, but to be unable to buy basics because they have allowed SKUs to run out. Or worse never stocked them - have stock in several sizes, but not others. They turn bright kids into morons by allowing them no input or responsibility whatsoever.

So all the same negatives apply regarding the box stores. As a business I buy trade when I can, but as earlier the geography and timing doesn't always allow it - it's a two hour round trip to Dublin where most of the trade guys are. Basic building materials tend to be all that's available locally.

I'm consistently surprised at the way that so many in the US don't seem to think of buying from trade suppliers. Ductwork etc is a case in point. It's expensive over here, but some of you guys by buying retail from a one stop shop/specialist retailer seem to end up paying enormous prices.

I'd always figured that it was an issue a bit like it used to be years ago here - the trade guys wouldn't sell to you unless you could prove it, or had some sort of a connection. These days they are all just happy to get the money - at least small guys like me pay cash on the nail, while trade accounts might not settle for 60 days. (which is anther Irish thing you don't get elsewhere)....

ian

[Ira Matheny]

So a homeowner is up against a sea of misinformation, and when they walk in to a Borg

True stoy. Neighbor wanted me to send a man to rebuild our common fence. I sent a 'Master Carpenter' the guy that 'Taught Norm everything He Knows'. Next day the neighbor comes over and insists I fire the 30 year employee. I ask why? He sez 'The Girl at Lowe's told him the way to build a fence, and my master carpeter was doing it differently.
So I fired the neighbor, took the 'Master Carpenter' and his wife out to a great resturant, had we all had a good meal and a great laugh.

[Ken Fitzgerald]

The lumber yards can be a wealth of good information for the home owner too! When we first moved into this home, the windows leaked air terribly. I went to a local lumber yard and ordered replacement windows for the entire house. I knew I'd be too busy at work to do the installation myself so I asked for the name of a recommended small contractor who would handle the installation. They recommended a guy and we talked. I bought all the material need for the new trim need for the exterior and interior of the windows. I pre-finished it. He did the installation and I assisted when I was able. He gave me a good price. I got a good installation,

I consulted a different lumber yard when I was considering building my new woodworking shop some years ago. They gave me the name of a contractor who was good and needed the business. The guy and I negotiated a contract, with one stipulation. He had to buy the materials from the place that recommended him. He did a great job. I buy my lumber from that same place today. In fact, when I retired last year my co-workers gave me a huge gift card for the local borg. I had never used it. I'm helping my oldest son gut and remodel one of his bathrooms. I convinced him to let me use my gift card to buy the new toilet, tile, plumbing supplies etc. I want to use the card because I very seldom to to that Borg.

[Larry Edgerton]

So your dealing with people.. Blow some smoke up one of the employees butts.. I see smart carpenters do it all the time .. lol Treat them like friends and you will be shocked how you suddenly become an important customer. People like people who like them.. They are simple that way ..

In many cases, the big builders all deal with 2-3 people.. All the other employees are there to service the rest, and keep the place going.. Yet those people behind the counter can treat you very well, and usually have more freedom to operate than the actual manager of a Borg.

.

I buy lunch for the guys in the back several times a year. Other builders can't figure out why they drop them to get what I need. They help me sort, and at times set nice product aside for me until they see me.

I treat the salesman with respect, male or female, until they lie to me. Then I find another.

Larry

[Larry Edgerton]

Fair enough. But hopefully you see how this very different business model (in-person vs. online, word-of-mouth vs. well-advertised) doesn't easily appeal to some. I'd pay a high premium for a lumberyard who sold stuff using something like McMaster's website. The only reason I ever go to the BORG is because I know that I'm encouraged to look around (vs. lumberyard where I need to know what I want because everything is squirreled away in a warehouse without prices listed). And I don't have to put up with the "only sells to the trades" BS.

You can't have it both ways Dan.

Your model has too much overhead for things that add no value. It costs money to maintain a web catalog, something that contractors are not going to use anyway as it is inefficient.

I can be in and out of my yard it 10-15 minutes with a load of diverse materials and back to making money. The money that was wasted on the catalog/web site can be used to pay employees more money so they can get help that actually knows what they are talking about.

The "squirreled away in a building" you mention is actually an efficient system that is fast, but yes, you do have to know what you are after. What you are after is just another Borg.

Larry

[Van Huskey]

All this lumberyard talk has reminded me of my one pet peeve that extends to all industrial supply houses, the names they use for items... I hate trying to explain what I want even when I know what the manufacturers call the item. I understand local names for things will propogate but when after 30 minutes of explaining and saying no to the items brought from the back, they bring me a box with the name I initially called for right on the box...

[Jerome Stanek]

Back when I worked for a home builder we received a bunk of 2x4's that were pretty bad called the lumber company and they had a rep from their supplier come out. He went through some of it and said load it up and take it back they would replace it and send this bunk to a Borg.

[David Hostetler]

Most contractors do not have the time, or patience to sift through pallets of junk lumber, so they learn the suppliers that provide them with quality enough to get the job done right, and refund policies to take back the culls that always happen on a project. More often than not, there will be a smaller, contractor oriented lumber yard near you that specializes in this sort of thing. And in bulk pricing, the BORG, when you figure in the culls, honestly can't compete price wise. Too much time and labor cost wrapped up in using their materials. Now around here, Lowes does tend to sell better lumber than Home Depot, but that is like Saying a Volga is a better car than a Yugo...

[Ole Anderson]

One of the problems in going to your old time lumber yard: there aren't many of them around since the BORGs moved in. Same with good hardware stores. yea, they drove them out of business.

[Mike Cutler]

A good lumber yard is a valuable resource, but some of them can be just as bad as Home Depot. Fortunately I have access to a few mills,and lumber yards in addition to a Home Depot and the Lowes.
If I was doing a large project, at least as a home owner, I'd call the lumber yard and have it delivered. For the small stuff it's easier for me to go to the Borg' because the lumber yard is closed by the time I get off work.

I don't have any problems with electrical supply houses, but these plumbing supply houses are shooting themselves in the foot. They really need to tone down the attitude.
I needed a new gas water heater and they wouldn't sell me one, so I bought it online and it was delivered to the house. I understand the hesitation because of the gas aspect, but if the guy buying it has almost 30 years of experience with compressed gasses, inert and explosive, it's a good bet he's got a fairly good idea on how to install it correctly.

Larry Edgerton
Hemlock, Wow! You want to come to Connecticut and do some work for me.
My house was built in 1919, which kinda of precludes my abilities to get lumber at a borg, so I have a local sawyer that cuts to spec when I need to do work.
I needed a rough cut 4x4 and he didn't have time to start up the saw so he gave me a rough cut Hemlock 4x4x12' long. That was one heavy piece of wood

[Jim Rimmer]

There used to be a chain in Texas (and maybe other areas, too) called Payless Cashways. They were like the old time lumberyard but advertised themselves as the handyman's friend. Well, they weren't really the handyman's friend and apparently didn't do well by the contractors either. Or they just didn't see the BORGs coming. At one time they were a big supplier of DIY stuff and now they're gone. Foxworth Galbraith was another that started as a lumber yard for contractors, branched out into the DIY market and then got ambushed by the BORGs.

[John Baranowski]

The only reason I ever go to the BORG is because I know that I'm encouraged to look around (vs. lumberyard where I need to know what I want because everything is squirreled away in a warehouse without prices listed).

this is the same reason I go to the BORG as well. No prices or labels drives me nuts.


The "squirreled away in a building" you mention is actually an efficient system that is fast, but yes, you do have to know what you are after. What you are after is just another Borg.
I am a homeowner, not a contractor. Knowing every grade of construction lumber is more than I care to memorize, but I can tell good stuff when I see it. And having prices there enables me to determine if paying the extra $xx per board is worth it for the simple garage shelving i'm building vs the high end shed with all the trimmings.

[Ryan Mooney]

In case you haven't figured out what I am saying, I would suggest that you ask some better builders where they purchase their lumber, and go there.

Larry

This got me thinking that on the flip side if you're hiring a builder, maybe asking them where they buy their lumber is a good way to weed out builders as well... :D

[Greg Portland]

them: "We only do business with plumbers, not guitar builders"
me: "I install guitar shaped plumbing systems for eccentric millionaires and I have cash. Do you want to make a sale or not?"
I've found that most businesses will sell to me (non-business) if I'm paying via card or cash. To open an account they are a bit more picky. As long as I have my act together (e.g. model, part number, quantity) there has never been a problem.

[Erik Loza]

My wife and I recently finished a 6-month remodel to our home. We had a contractor handle since both of us work full-time and the thought of a divorce did not appeal to me. Regarding the lumber-thing, our builder uses a local lumberyard ("McCoy's") for all the lumber, Tyvek, OSB and ply, Hardie siding, etc. From the conversations I was part of, it seemed like one phone call from their office to McCoy's and the material was at our site the next morning. Now, the builder we hired is a small, local firm and I can absolutely see how the fact that they are more than likely long-standing customers of McCoys made sure everything was on time and was what they needed. This yard is open to the public and I have been in there several times. Interesingly, it is never as busy as the Home Depot or Lowe's which are nearby, so that leads me to believe that most of their business is builders like ours. Probably because those two big retailers cannot offer the level of service that the independent place does. So, it seems like they have a good niche worked out for themselves.

Erik Loza
Minimax USA

http://i75.photobucket.com/albums/i315/erikloza/Montclaire%202012/DSC_0024.jpg
http://i75.photobucket.com/albums/i315/erikloza/Montclaire%202012/DSC_0019.jpg

[Dan Friedrichs]

I am a homeowner, not a contractor. Knowing every grade of construction lumber is more than I care to memorize, but I can tell good stuff when I see it. And having prices there enables me to determine if paying the extra $xx per board is worth it for the simple garage shelving i'm building vs the high end shed with all the trimmings.


Exactly. I can't stand how, at "proper" lumber yards, finding a price seems to involve someone typing away at an ancient PC for 30 seconds before being able to tell me. It would be REALLY nice if they'd even just print out a current price list (or put it on their website).

[Jim Becker]

The GC who did our addition only works with a local, full service lumber yard and now I buy from them, too. Even if you're only buying a few sticks, the folks pulling the lumber carefully choose the best pieces in the stacks...one by one. Very little waste and top quality. For only a few pennies, if that, more than the 'borg's "hula" lumber.

[Rich Engelhardt]

I am surprised there are still lumberyards or even wholesalers who won't sell to the public.. That mantra died a long time ago.. I would suspect that its dead but just hasn't fallen down yet in some areas.. lol
Really?
Not in my area.
The "trades only" places are doing pretty well - all things considered, such as the building slump.
When the borgs hit town in force, it had little effect on them since - they didn't compete for the same market share...

[Ronald Blue]

I guess it's all about how much it's worth to you to be coddled. If your a contractor I understand that the contractor oriented yard has big benefits. For everyone else it's what this is worth to you. My son is considering building a new home. He will act as the GC. The local yard was $20,000 higher on the framing lumber,exterior sheathing and siding, and roofing. Inside was drywall and sub floor. That's quite a few pennies more. Since he works a couple miles from 3 major borgs it isn't an extra trip to work out issues. Big difference on the bottom line. Everything comes at a price. For some reason it eludes me how buying fixtures at the local yard would assure you they will never be discontinued. I personally don't mind sorting through the pile to find what I like. I think most of this thread is a rant and a slam to do it yourselfer's but that is just my observation. Ironically I thought woodworkers were the ultimate do it yourselfer.

[Rich Engelhardt]

For some reason it eludes me how buying fixtures at the local yard would assure you they will never be discontinued. I personally don't mind sorting through the pile to find what I like. I think most of this thread is a rant and a slam to do it yourselfer's but that is just my observation. Ironically I thought woodworkers were the ultimate do it yourselfer.They (trades only places) buy from places like Progress and/or Nora, not from Utilitech..
Progress and/or Nora will discontinue items also -but -they don't leave you high and dry with what you already have..
It's no different than trying to find parts for some off the wall brand tool vs a name brand. I have a wonderful magensium framed Tradesman 18 ga. brad nailer. O also understand that if someting breaks in it, all I'll have is a real nifty fire starter...;).

Also - the decision to carry or not carry an item is made at the local level, not by a buyer in an offce a couple thousand miles away.

Good real life example here. All Builder's Square stores were shipped a few skids of barbed wire. Why? Barbed wire is a big seller in Texas.
Barbed wire happens to be against the law to sell in Parma Hts. Ohio...for all I know, those skids of barbed wire are still stiing in an empy building..
Product mix/items carried by the borg are made at a corporate level and the individual stores have little to say about what they carry.

I don't see where it's a slam to a DIY'er that there are jobbers out there that cater to a specific market.
Is it just becaus it's wood/kumber related, or does it bug you also that there are kitchen and janitorial suppliers that do the same thing?


I personally don't mind sorting through the pile to find what I like
No offence intended - but - it's not all about you and what you don't mind.
While you're culling material, you're holding up the guy on the forklift that wants to pick 3 bunks to fill an order..

[Matt McColley]

a lot of good info has already been posted.... I'll share my DIY on steroids experience, having build a house, a large add'n and a pole barn....

Make a detailed list of the lumber you need... add a small percentage for damage, miscuts, etc...

send the list to a couple lumber yards with good reputations and get quotes... then, try to deal with the same outfit on future projects and you'll build a good relationship with them..... (remember, these guys know the industry very well and can give you good advice, recommendations, etc...)

I set up a cash account with one yard, so that they could track my purchases and I could get a little discount.

I found that the quality of lumber at a good lumber yard is SOOOO much better than the big box stores....

Also, on my add'n, I had the contractor desk at HD quote my project and they were ~15% high.... and they don't deliver.

Make sure you have delivery details clear.... having the deliveries made in an organized manner, with the drops arriving at the right time and right place will save hours of your labor. Request a boom truck for delivery of panel products and roofing materials and have them plopped down on your second floor deck or roof...... I could have saved myself a hundred trips up and down a 20' ladder with bundles of heavy architectural shingles on my shoulder if I had only asked for a boom truck :^(

include nails, subfloor adhesive, typar, etc.... in your materials list.... make it as exact as you can.

Many lumber yards have one particular guy who works with the truss manufacturers and engineered material suppliers. He's the guy you want to talk to to speck out LVLs, Glue Lams, and trusses.... or at a the very least, double check your selections.

Who's going to do that for you at HD?

[Jim German]

I like the BORGs. I like having a website where I can check prices, check stock, check hours and locations. I like being able to wander around the store and look at products at my leisure.

I'm too intimidated to go to most trade type stores. I hate having to ask for a product without know the price, or being able to see it. I hate having to call a salesman.

[Bob Rufener]

We built our house a number of years ago-before the advent of the borgs in our area. We have a local lumber yard and I would definitely do the same thing. The lumber yard was sold by the owner to his employees and they are a good bunch of young guys. They are knowledgable and helpful. They have staff that will take your plan and come up with a close approximation of what sizes and quantities you will need for construction. They also bundle and deliver and will take returns on any unused lumber without questions. Good quality as well.

[Jim Andrew]

Near 40 years ago, I started my building business. At that time there were no "borgs", and the town I worked in had 4 lumberyards. I was a small builder, just doing 1 or 2 houses at a time, and the yards had their favorite customers, who got their material first. And they did not have salesmen to call on builders. It was a struggle to get the stuff on the job as I needed it, if we ran short, I had to get in my truck and drive to the yard, get a ticket and usually load it myself and haul it back to the jobsite. Usually killed about 1 1/2 hours. And those hours added up, and they did not pay. The first yard that got a salesman got my business. He came by to see if I needed anything, trying to pick up some business. I bought a few things, he made sure the price was right, and pretty soon I was buying everything from him. Things they did not have in stock, he would track down and even if he had to get them from a competitor, he would get and deliver. Got so he stopped by twice a day, and for me it was great. Like having a full time unpaid employee.

[ben searight]

Exactly. I can't stand how, at "proper" lumber yards, finding a price seems to involve someone typing away at an ancient PC for 30 seconds before being able to tell me. It would be REALLY nice if they'd even just print out a current price list (or put it on their website).

Believe it or not, lumber prices fluctuate constantly as do any other commodity. If you want constant, posted prices, you will pay more as the supplier would have to build in fluff to account for price increases.

I agree with you about the attitude at some supply places. A few years ago, the hardwood supplier I buy from would hardly give me the time of day, even though I was spending a few thousand dollars a year there. I was viewed as an annoyance because they were selling primarily to custom cabinet shops that were buying a truckload at a time. Now they call me every week to see if I need anything, even though I'm not a business. It's amazing how a lousy economy will improve customer service.

[Jim German]

Believe it or not, lumber prices fluctuate constantly as do any other commodity. If you want constant, posted prices, you will pay more as the supplier would have to build in fluff to account for price increases.

I don't care about constant prices, I care about having the price visible before I decide what I want. I don't understand how people make decisions on what to buy without being able to compare prices. I suppose if you don't care about it and just pass all the cost onto your customer it wouldn't matter to you. Still that seems like an easy way to lose customers.

[Adam Shapiro]

Around here it depends on what you're doing. The big builders usually don't buy at the Borgs, but a lot of small contractors do. There are plenty of yards and supply houses around, but if you're not a big enough account they make it pretty clear they're not interested in your business, or they'll charge you retail plus pricing. In addition, I know a lot of full time union guys who do reno's as sidework. Some turn out really quality work, but they need to order or get supplies over the weekend or after 3:30 and that's just not possible with most yards. That said, if a job is big enough to price out, I'd almost always rather deal with the yard if possible.

Supply houses are another story. I don't know how these are still in business. Just from personal experience, I've tried to buy from the big local electric house, and while they're willing to sell retail that make it clear they don't want my business. The last straw for me was realizing that going to the Borg actually took less time then standing around waiting until the salesmen finished BS'ing and eating donuts with the contractors who hung out at the house to take my order. Plus, they've generally got what I need in stock at the Borg, and the prices are significantly less (I ordered switches from the supply house for which they charged me $80/ea and then lost them in their own store for 3 days, I found them at HD in the meantime for $45).

[Mike Watts]

Really interesting and timely thread. I am getting ready to do a major renovation. Replace deck, move walls, redo MB and kitchen and have been wondering about this issue. I live in Hampton Roads, VA and the closest non Borg is 84 Lumber. There are a couple of local yards across the bridge in Gloucester also. Anyone have any recommendations in my area?

[Rick Fisher]

I am actually familiar with 84 .. they are huge .. I would be willing to bet they will treat you right..

I would be shocked if a local lumberyard was $20,000 high on a house if the quote covered lumber, roofing and drywall.. Most normal sized homes are less than $20,000 for those three things combined.. In BC right now, framing lumber is about $5.50 a foot .. 9 foot walls, crawl space.. Roofing .. typical house is $4500 .. Drywall .. Typical house is $5500 ..

A 2000 sf house might cost $20,000 for the whole package.. If the house was $3000 sf .. but two floors.. I dunno .. It would be hard to spend $30K .. To be $20 K high .. someone made an oops..

Sounds like a math mistake ..

If they are higher than the Home Depot, they are making money .. My dream would be to have a Lowes and Home Depot as my only competitors .. Much easier to compete with than smaller family owned style lumberyards and consistently good margins.. I think HD finished the year at 34% in 2011 .. Lowes would have been the same ..

[Mike OMelia]

I'm not a contractor but I do know the difference between a Borg and a lumber yard. +1 on all of the above. If I'm into a serious project, I'm heading to Wilson's Lumber. If I need two 2x4s, I'm heading to the Borg. It's closer and more convenient. Btw, Lowes will take anything back. So I would not take that as an issue. I recently bought 4 door bottom seals and a can of black rustoleum paint. Painted all 4. Paint would not dry! Not even 24 hours later. So I threw them and the paint in a garbage bag and took them back to Lowes! Next paint worked much better. :)

Mike

[Dan Friedrichs]

Well, I'm building a deck and decided to try out a few "proper" local yards, rather than HD or Lowes. I bought PT framing lumber from one place, whose prices were about on par with HD. I ordered 8' 2x8's, since I intentionally made many of the joists 8' long. Without warning me, the yard delivered me 16' sticks, instead - later telling me that they don't stock 8'ers, and that I "ought to have a saw" to cut them in half. Is this typical lumberyard customer service?

I ordered cedar from a different yard. The stuff they sent me was trash - 2' long checks up the ends of boards, stuff that was twisted and bowed and had knots fallen out of it, etc.

I wish there was a yard like Menards where I could pick my own...

[Steve Kohn]

I just finished building a 16X20 foot deck with my son on the back of his house. All of the 2X8 joists, posts, railings, and the decking came from Menards. The ordera were simply phoned into the store. Menard's picked the orders, banded the material, and delivered it as requested on his property within an hour of when he wanted it. The quality of the pressure treated wood was so good we didn't have to take one stick back. The one bad joist and one bad deck board were were able to be used as shorter pieces.

I really think the quality of wood is far superior at Menards than any other BORG. Menard's is the only place I go for any kind of wood, whether its PT, cedar, plywood, or #1 pine. The only exception is when I'm building something out of premium hardwoods. That is picked out any any one of several hardwood dealers.

[Rick Fisher]

At our yard, they would have cut the 16's into 8's before shipping them but if we didn't, it would rarely be a big deal ..

[Matt Meiser]

Around here the locals don't try very hard to get business from the average consumer. The one closest to me was open from sometime in the morning until 5PM M-F. That's it. I say was because now a feed store owns the property. The next closest one tries a little harder and is open until noon on Saturday and 6PM on the weekdays. I do use them when I need more than a board or two because they'll deliver very inexpensively. If they didn't it would be much less likely that I'd use them. They do have a lot nicer material but its still a pain for me to get there. The 3rd closest tried to charge me $50 for delivery a week after they delivered to my mom for free. Granted they had delivered all the construction material for her kitchen remodel, but that's a big difference. They have been running ads on the radio proudly bragging about the owner "Cranky Hank" which is pretty much my experience the 1-2 times I've gone in.

Then again, you can buy this gem at Lowes near me:
237423

[Michael Arruda]

Unfortunately, There is no other option in the high desert that I know about. 84 Lumber went out of business quite a while ago, H&E Closed down a couple years ago, Barr lumber went out of business earlier this year... I don't think there's any other options up here but 2 Lowes and 3 HDs. (1 Lowes closed, too)

I have to drive 60 miles one way down the hill to Peterman Lumber to purchase anything else.

-Michael