Replacing teeth on a saw blade

[joe milana]

Anyone ever had it done? I just received a High-ATB blade from the sharpener with three new replacement teeth. The three new teeth are a good .015 thinner that the rest of the teeth on the blade. Is this normal? The sharpener is gone for the weekend so I can't ask.

PS. This sharpener comes highly recommended on this site.

[Van Huskey]

Have had plenty of teeth replaced over the years, never noticed an issue with narrow teeth. I would have them fix it. When it is all resolved I think most of use would like to know who it was and how they resolved the issue. Thats is an issue not everyone might catch.

[joe milana]

I didn't want to start a rant thread, but I received a box from UPS with three blades inside. When I opened the blades & peeled the protective coating off, each blade had broken teeth. After further inspection, I could see sawtooth marks through the side of the box. I called the sharpener & even though they got to him ok, he suggested I use better packing next time. :confused:
The blade in question is a freud premier fusion. It features what I call a "side grind" on the teeth. I noticed the new teeth didn't have the "side grind", hence the micrometer reading.

Another blade was a Forest #1 grind box joint blade. After a call from the sharpener informing me that the blade had been modified, I explained that it was a #1 grind, and was suppose to be that way. He concurred...
When I opened & inspected the sharpened blade, it is now some sort of "staggered inverted vee shape" that is of no good to me.:mad: The sharpener agreed to "fix" it, but will have to grind about 1/16" off the top of the teeth to flatten them.

[Van Huskey]

It isn't a rant if you are being honest, complete and factual. Now if ever one and their sister come into the thread and "pile-on" then it becomes a "bad thread" and the moderators can take care of that, but it wouldn't be your fault.

Sometimes things go wrong and people deserve a chance to fix it, but if a trend emerges there are lots of good saw filers out there that would deserve the business more. What I don't like seeing if having to lose 1/16" of TC off your #1 grind blade through no fault of your own.

Good luck, I imagine they will make it right!

[joe milana]

I've had the worse luck with sharpeners....

[Larry Frank]

I would like to know who the sharpener is and how this is finally resolved.

I would be totally upset with the suggestion to grind off the top of the teeth to fix the problem. Not wanting to really rant, a saw blade is a investment that you make and you seem to have spent some good $$$$ to get the blades. Having someone do such a poor job on them would be very frustrating.

[Bruce Wrenn]

First, the side grind on the replacement teeth. Your sharpener may not be set up to do mulitple facets on a side grind (not all are), so he just made sure teeth didn't project past other teeth. Have you tried the blade to see how it cuts? On the WWII, stuff happens. Taking a sixteenth off the top of the teeth probably won't ever effect anything you do. How many times in your lifetime do you expect to sharpen your WWII?

[scott spencer]

That double side grind is one of the attributes that makes this blade leave a more polished edge than others...it simply puts more carbide on the cut for a longer period of time than standard side grinds. It's a key parameter that I'd definitely want to have duplicated as closely as possible, and is something that is probably best discussed prior to resharpening. Given that it's part of the stock grind, he should have duplicated it anyways. Fortunately, it's a small percentage of the teeth, so shouldn't really harm much as long as the new teeth aren't wider. I'd be curious to know how you make out.

[joe milana]

Thanks for the comments so far. I filed a claim with UPS, so we will see how that goes. They want five days to make a decision, and possibly inspect the damage, so I have to wait to send the blades back. I'll call him tomorrow to ask about the side grind.

[Matt Meiser]

If the blades ate their way out of the packaging, its not UPS's fault.

[joe milana]

If the blades ate their way out of the packaging, its not UPS's fault.

The blades were dipped, in their original sleeves, and wrapped in bubble pack. The box was badly crushed. We'll see what happens.
The thing that upset me is that the sharpener was somewhat indifferent to the damage & suggested that I use better packaging. I shipped the blades as described earlier, in a priority mail box. They got to him just fine.

[Ole Anderson]

I'm no expert on sharpening, but I am not sure I would want the average filer to touch my side grind unless he had a tuned CNC blade sharpener. Think about it, what two factors are important to you regarding a blade sharpening: sharp teeth of the same design of the original blade and a smooth cut. Sharpness is a function of the grinds on the top and front of the tooth and doesn't really affect the smoothness the way the side grind will. Start grinding the sides and you reduce the effective set of the blade by reducing the width of the tooth. I may be all wrong here and I hope someone with first hand experience in precision blade sharpening pipes in.

If I were to ship blades, I would probably build a wood shipper with spacers between the blades so this couldn't happen.

[Jeff Nicol]

I have had some teeth replaced on acouple of blades over the years, and have used different sharpeners each time. I finally found a place that did all kinds of big industrial sharpening and they did a fantastic job on every blade, knife etc. But it was not long after they stopped taking small jobs form individuals due to a huge rise in their larger customers. Just proves when you do a good job your business will grow, sucks for me though!

But it sounds like to me the guy that did your blades does not have such a great bedside manner, or he would have bent over backwards to make sure you were satisfied, but that is just my thoughts on it.

I hope UPS takes care of the damage etc, days are tough enough without being able to rely on the services that keep them going.

Jeff

[Kevin Presutti]

As far as I know replacement teeth are made for thin kerf blades and full kerf blades. It is my understanding that these teeth are all fat prior to silver soldering to the blade body and then the whole blade is ground to the smallest most warn tooth. It sounds to me this order wasn't followed or else he mistakenly grabbed thin kerf replacements as opposed to the full kerf ones. Best of Luck!

[Stan Krupowies]

The thing that upset me is that the sharpener was somewhat indifferent to the damage & suggested that I use better packaging.

Wait! These were shipped to you from the sharpener and they got damaged? So that means the sharpener packaged them, right? And he suggested YOU use better packaging? Am I missing something here?

[joe milana]

Wait! These were shipped to you from the sharpener and they got damaged? So that means the sharpener packaged them, right? And he suggested YOU use better packaging? Am I missing something here?

The sharpener re-uses the shipping materials, therefore, it's "my fault".

[Jerrimy Snook]

Joe, I am sorry to hear about these unfortunate events. I respect your method of seeking resolution for this problem by asking SMC for advice while attempting to find a resolution with the saw service and UPS.

As a saw sharpener by trade, I have a different view of saw blades than most of SMC but I can attempt to explain the sharpening and repair process as well as the the geometry critical to returning your blades to factory fresh condition.

Your first concern was the thickness of the replacement teeth. I am uncertain whether you are referring to the thickness from the face of the tooth to the steel shoulder or the width of the tooth. I will assume the thickness, which could be explained by either too small of replacement carbide or too aggressive grinding. The thickness should not have an affect the cut but those teeth will need to be replaced again to get the full life out of that blade. If the width of the tooth is .015 narrower than the rest of the teeth, then they are essentially useless. A few teeth ground too narrow should not affect the cut the way that one wide tooth will.

Were you aware of any tooth loss or damage before you shipped them or were the blades damaged going to the sharpener?

As far as packaging... my recommendation would be to secure the blades to a piece of plywood that is the same size as the box and larger than the saw blades attached to it. The goal is to keep the blades separated from each other so that carbide is not touching carbide and to keep them from moving inside the box. We have used plywood boxes for repeat customers however there may be a surcharge with some carriers (UPS) for other than cardboard boxed shipments.

If I had ground your Type 1 Forrest improperly, I would have either rebuilt or replaced the blade.

The double grind on the Fusion blade is not as critical as the angle of the grind from the top to the base of the tooth (technically called the tangential grind). To duplicate this grind would require 2 setups for most sharpeners even with a cnc saw grinder. The importance should be in duplicating the tangential measurement.

I do hope that this is resolved to your satisfaction.

[joe milana]

Jerrimy, thanks for your comments, I'm here to get informed. Sorry for my vague description of my issues. The blades were originally damaged by the result of sawstop brake firings. The replacement teeth (three in a row) in concern are narrower as in the kerf measurement. ie. the blade has a .125 kerf. The replacement teeth measure about .110 kerf wise.
As far as packaging, I have a plywood carrier for local sharpening, but this is my first mail order sharpening adventure. I packed the blades the same way as I have received new blades in the past. In their sleeve, and wrapped in bubble wrap, and in a cardboard box. As I stated previously, the cardboard box was badly damaged.

I spoke with an "authorized" freud sharpener today & said that the side grind is difficult to duplicate, but the replacement teeth should be the same width as the rest of the teeth on the blade. I'm not exactly sure what that means.

[Tom Walz]

Personally, I think Jerrimy is being much too polite but he is talking about a competitor and being very professional about it.

I am not that polite. I firnly believe that "If you don't like it, then it is not right." Not everyone in the industry uses this rule but many of us do. Jerrimy makes World's Best saw blades for Carbide Processors. Every saw blade we sell has a 100% satsifaction guarantee. If you don't like it we will replace, rework or refund all your money. Most top quality sharpening shops follow the same rule. Many of our huge competitors also follow the same rule.

There are thousands of sizes and shapes of carbide saw tips. Typcially they are brazed on and then ground down as described above. It is possible that someone did not have teeth with the right thickness so they used some a bit undersize.

Attached are 2 pics describing length and width of saw tips. Width is often called 'kerf' which works pretty well but is not techncially correct. "Kerf" is the width of the cut. So kerf is width of the tip plus gridn variation plus runout plus whatever the material does. (If the material tears out ((wrong blade design and / or dull blade) the kerf will be larger. If there is 'fiber spring back' in the cut ((wrong design and/or dull blade)) the kerf can be smaller.) It is possible that the kerf can be smaller than the width although this is very unusual.)

Tom Walz
Carbide Processors

[Tom Walz]

Sorry Joe,

I sort of ranted. I'll behave now.

Tom

[joe milana]

Thanks for the help Tom! I really appreciate it. :) I just notice something else about the replacement tips. The thickness (distance from face of teeth to shoulder) is about 2/3's that of the original teeth, so after a couple more sharpenings, there won't be anything left of them. As Jerrimy described. :mad:

[Tom Walz]

Dear Mr. Milana:

You are entirely welcome. Both Jerrimy and I believe that an excellent tool is eactly what the customer says it is.

Because people, such as yourself, are willing to bring these points up the whole industry of new tools and resharpened tools has taken a tremendous leap in quality. That sounds a bit grandiose, perhaps, but it is, nevertheless, true. A discussion of runout here resonates thoughout the industry.

There are very few discussions of runout anymore. A couple years ago the folks here told the industry what they liked and didn't like and the industry stepped up. Now TR or TIR (Total Runout or Total Incremental runout) is much, much better than it was.

The same thing is happening in resharpening.

[Van Huskey]

Jerrimy or Tom, if one or both of you have the time could you make a post detailing the steps and types of modern machines used to sharpen circular saws these days. Just identifying the exact grind seems duaunting to me but I am sure you guys can "see" it across the room... in the dark. Sure I can see the difference between a HI-ATB and TCG but there seems to be a lot of subtle differences within each main catagory.

[Jerrimy Snook]

Thank you Tom. The market I serve has a few good sharpeners so I tend to think the best of the industry. Sometimes blades come in that have been serviced elsewhere and you can tell that they didn't run well. Sometimes it is poor craftsmanship, sometimes it is a simple mistake. (Kind of like saying the top to bottom clearance on a saw tooth is the tangential when we all know that top to bottom is radial clearance.)

Joe, have you had any resolution with the sharpener?

[Jerrimy Snook]

Van are you asking about sharpening or design and application?

[Van Huskey]

Van are you asking about sharpening or design and application?


I am interested in the sharpening process which I am sure is less involved than designing. In my mind I see inspection and cleaning (not in that order) then a trip to and through a CNC machine but I don't know if it is one CNC with a single or multiple setups or multiple machines. I also don't know if you load them one at a time or if it is like a juck box and just feeds itself in order. I guess this stems from knowing enough to realize there are a ton of different grinds in the modern saw age and though identifying the grind is certainly second nature to you even that rudimetary step seems very complex to me. I certainly don't want to overburden your time and if their is a website with this info that would be great. I need to spend more time on Tom's site, I find I can only digest so much carbide at one sitting though... :D

[glenn bradley]

I've had the worse luck with sharpeners....

Sorry about your poor experiences Joe. I know your far from the left coast and so shipping my squash the deal but, I'll mention this for all our members benefit. Our way too modest member, Jerrimy Snook of Snook's Saw in Oregon does top notch work in the areas of cutter design. They also do sharpening service and I would confidently recommend them to my fellow Creekers (and that's high praise). The web site is acting a bit wonky for me right now but, they are in Salem, OR at 503-581-2570.

When I ship blades, I cut two 11" squares of scrap 1/4" ply, soften all the edges and drill a hole in the center. I wrap the teeth with old plastic tubing, cardboard or whatever, sandwich the blade in the pieces of ply and put something the center to keep the teeth from reaching beyond the outer edge. This whole rig gets wrapped in cardboard and taped up for shipping and is not near as involved as it sounds now that I write it down ;-)

P.s. Jerrimy, that crosscut blade you set me up with goes through 8/4 pecan "like buttah".

[Matt Meiser]

Actually shipping isn't too bad with Flat Rate boxes and they get there fast. You can protect them as well as you want with wood as long as it fits inside the flat rate box. I even recently shipped a tubing bender that probably weighted 40lb. I built a wood crate that JUST fit inside the large flat rate box--for all intents and purposes the box was just a wrapper around a wood shipping crate. The Post Office will even give you the boxes free, even deliver them to your house, again free.

[joe milana]

Sorry about your poor experiences Joe. I know your far from the left coast and so shipping my squash the deal but, I'll mention this for all our members benefit. Our way too modest member, Jerrimy Snook of Snook's Saw in Oregon does top notch work in the areas of cutter design. They also do sharpening service and I would confidently recommend them to my fellow Creekers (and that's high praise). The web site is acting a bit wonky for me right now but, they are in Salem, OR at 503-581-2570.

When I ship blades, I cut two 11" squares of scrap 1/4" ply, soften all the edges and drill a hole in the center. I wrap the teeth with old plastic tubing, cardboard or whatever, sandwich the blade in the pieces of ply and put something the center to keep the teeth from reaching beyond the outer edge. This whole rig gets wrapped in cardboard and taped up for shipping and is not near as involved as it sounds now that I write it down ;-)

P.s. Jerrimy, that crosscut blade you set me up with goes through 8/4 pecan "like buttah".

Thanks for the referral Glen. I'll add him to my "short list". I'll definitely do as you describe for packaging, even though it may or may not have saved the blades in my situation, based on the extent of the damage to the box, and as matt suggests, make it fit a priority mail box, which is 2-3 days to anywhere in the CONUS.

I'm still waiting to hear from the sharpener, so no progress has been made, but when I do, I feel much more informed thanks to your comments.

[Tom Walz]

Dear Van,

I find that I am quite capable of telling people more about carbide than they ever wanted to know.

Essentially I supply Jerrimy and others with carbide, braze alloy, etc. A few years ago I came up with a couple really superior materials for saw teeth. Jerrimy went to the time and trouble to learn how to make them work extremely well.

I am pretty much material science and application. Jerrimy is definitely the expert on tool design and manufacture.

Yes, In my opinion also, Jerrimy is very modest. However I have had a great number of people make big promises and not deliver. I far and away prefer someone, such as jerreimy, who says he will try then delivers a beautiful job.

Tom

[fRED mCnEILL]

I took my Forrest miter saw blade, that had been sharpened once, back for resharpening. When I put it on the saw and went to use it, it made the weirdest sound and when i tried to make a cut I thought it was on backwards. When I took it back they examined it, looked up the specs for a Forrest blade and determined that during the sharpening, they had put the wrong specs into the computer and ruined the blade. So they simply said that "stuff" happens, appologized and gave me a brand new blade. I thought that was pretty good customer service. Incidently, their name is European Saw Sharpening Service in Surrey, British Columbia.
Regards

Fred.