Do you own 3 phase machines??

[Van Huskey]

Do you own any 3 phase machines and how do you power them, or did you buy a 3 phase machine and switch the motor to single phase?

[Rod Sheridan]

Hi Van, Diann has a 3 phase lathe.

It came without a motor, so I put a single phase motor on it.

Recently i put a VFD and 3 phase motor on it........Rod.

[Todd Burch]

I have 3. I bought a used 10 HP Kay Industries Rotary Phase Converter for $750 back in 2004.

10 HP Felder AD-751
5.5 HP Felder RL150 Dust Collector
3 HP Powermatic Oscillating Edge Sander

Next shop: Phase Perfect big enough to support existing stuff and a ~27" wide belt sander.
(and the RPC will be for sale at that point as well)

[Van Huskey]

Rod and Todd you posted while I was setting up the poll, vote if you come back through.

Todd, I forgot to add Phase Perfect (digital phase converters)

[Todd Burch]

I was the first to vote.

[Bruce Page]

I have two - I've been running them on the same static converter, a HD Phase-O-Matic since the early '90's.

[Larry Edgerton]

My shop is kind of like a dog pound, you are likely to find all different kind of mutts in there. My new shop is limited by the power coming in. I want a big wide belt because they are cheap used but there in not enough power coming down the road.

No three phase available, so I am on a 50 hp RPC and one static I have not converted back yet and one VFD. Like I said, mutts everywhere.....

I may go with a Phase Perfect or similar if the prices come down a bit and they prove to be dependable long term.

Larry

[Jerome Stanek]

We have a 7.5 HP screw compressor that runs of a roto phase We bought a larger roto phase to add more equipment and really like how it works. We need air 24/7 so the roto phase has been running 24/7 for over 2 years now.

[Paul Incognito]

The only piece of 3 phase equipment I have is an old Oliver planer.
The shop space I'm renting has 3 phase service, so I'm a bit spoiled. The rest of my equipment is single phase.
Paul

[joe milana]

Finally took the plunge to 3 phase with phase perfect. :) Now it seems the resellers have gobbled up all the used industrial machines & I can't find a deal. :mad:

[Rick Fisher]

Van ... pfft on not including Phase Perfect.. :)

I have 4 three phase machines.. See above for power supply..

[Van Huskey]

Finally took the plunge to 3 phase with phase perfect. :) Now it seems the resellers have gobbled up all the used industrial machines & I can't find a deal. :mad:

I have noticed a lot more dealers coming back into the auction scene...

[Erik Loza]

...Now it seems the resellers have gobbled up all the used industrial machines & I can't find a deal. :mad:

Not to stray too far off-topic but regarding this statement, I (new machinery seller, I mean...) have seen a drop-off in the number of used, industrial machinery available from the various auction sites or brokers. What I suspect is that all the old iron that ended up on the market as a result of the economic crash has been pretty much sold through by now and that those "bargains of the century" are getting harder and harder to come by. In 2010, for example, it seemed like every other phone call I took was from someone who either had just or was just about to pull the trigger on some giant SCMi planer, jointer, or edgebander. 2012: Not so much so.

Best,

Erik Loza
Minimax USA

[Cary Falk]

I have a 1 hp 3phase power feed on a VFD. I converted it myself. I guess my new Jet 1642 lathe is 3 phase on a VFD also.

[Michael W. Clark]

My first real stationary piece of woodworking equipment was a Grizzly 1023. My wife and I went to the scratch-n-dent sale in Springfield and I was prepared to buy a hybrid (I think they had just came out). She saw this saw and said "why don't you get this one, its only $300 more?". So I said "sure" (I love to take her tool shopping with me, she picks out really nice tools, got me 2 Festool sanders and an extractor for Christmas). Got home and realized it was 3ph. I bought a SPC and it works, but is quirky especially when doing a lot of start/stop operations. This is the reasoning behind my inquiring on the other post.

Mike

[Tony Zaffuto]

Since I have two shops (one in my basement and one at my manufacturing plant) I have multiple types of machines: single phase, 3 phase converted to single and 3 phase. I should be able to wage multiple votes!

[Ira Matheny]

I have 5 machines that are 3 ph. I also has 3 Phase power from my utility company. And do the 3 ph tools ever work!
Most of my 3 phase tools have been purchased for litterly a couple of pennies on the dollar.

[Mike Heidrick]

Here is my 3ph lineup.

3ph 3hp jointer and FM50 VFD
3ph 5hp single stage DC and a SPC and ideler motor
3ph 5hp shaper and GE mini 300 VFD
3ph 1/2hp bandsaw feeder and Bonfiglioli Vectron VFD Nema4 IP65
3ph 2.2kw Chinese electrospindle on a Hitachi X200 VFD controlled via computer/Mach using RS485 and Modbus

Coming later 2012
20hp Roots Blower Vacuum for CNC and 30hp RPC and 3ph panel

Almost anything I want nowadays is 3ph only it seems. Plenty of deals in IL, MI, IN, OH is you look and are patient and can commit and drive in a moments notice.

[Kirk Poore]

I use VFD's on my lathe and my drill press. Particularly in the case of the DP, it means I don't have to turn on my RPC to make one or two holes. My other 3ph machines (bandsaw, shaper, planer, mortiser and tenoner) all run off of the RPC.

Kirk

[Mike Cruz]

Van, I saw the poll, and without seeing who started it, just KNEW it was you!

I have 3 phase motors on two of my lathes, one of my band saws, an on a belt/disc sander. ALL are run on their own VFDs. Reason 1: If I need/want to sell any individual machine, it can basically be sold as a single phase machine. Whereas if I needed/wanted to sell one that was powered by a static or rotory converter that supplied power to "the entire shop", it would have to be sold as 3 phase, and would undoubtedly be reaching a much smaller audience AND would go for less money. Reason 2: VFDs offer a wide range of functions that other converts don't...like variable speed control, overclocking, braking, soft start, to name a few. Reason 3: I don't have to run wires all over the shop (shop is already wired for single phase) to any machine that would need conversion. Each machine's VFD is right there at the machine with the individual controls for each one readily accessible.

[Kevin Nathanson]

I have 3ph power in a commercial space I am renting until I can build my own shop on our property. Currently <snicker> I have a 37" wide belt sander, 5hp tilting-spindle sliding table shaper, 5hp cyclone dust collector, a 2hp explosion-proof motor for my spray booth, and a 1-ton overhead hoist that are 3ph.

I guess if I get any bigger tools, I'll have to upgrade to four or five phase, but for now, three seems to have me covered.

K

[Peter Quinn]

Not to stray too far off-topic but regarding this statement, I (new machinery seller, I mean...) have seen a drop-off in the number of used, industrial machinery available from the various auction sites or brokers. What I suspect is that all the old iron that ended up on the market as a result of the economic crash has been pretty much sold through by now and that those "bargains of the century" are getting harder and harder to come by. In 2010, for example, it seemed like every other phone call I took was from someone who either had just or was just about to pull the trigger on some giant SCMi planer, jointer, or edgebander. 2012: Not so much so.

Best,

Erik Loza
Minimax USA

I'm presently looking for an SCMI T110, and I too am seeing that drop off. The auction archives list great deals over the last few years, those things seem to have dried up, and the brokers seem to have all the machines. I got a great deal on a barely used T-40 minimax a few years back (cheaper than a good router table) from a guy locally closing his shop, couldn't give away his 3 phase machines. So I added a rotary convertor big enough to run 7.5 HP and still did well. I'd still rather have a 15 year old SCMI used than one of those brand new Asian imports. Its easier to get parts!

[Scott T Smith]

I guess if I get any bigger tools, I'll have to upgrade to four or five phase, but for now, three seems to have me covered.

K


<snicker>

Van, you forgot one option... running 3 phase machines off of a generator. I run around 160 hp of 3-phase equipment off of a 400hp generator. Also have a 30 hp RPC for running the smaller, low voltage 3-phase equipment and 3 hp kicker type RPC slaved to a vertical mill.

[Mike Cruz]

Scott, not sure if he "forgot" it, or just realized that there would probably be 1 vote for running your shop off a 400 hp generator! That must be some kind of shop you've got there... PLEASE don't post pics of it. I don't want to retreat into a corner, and cry like a school girl in envy...:o

[Kevin Nathanson]

The fact that he is referring to "the low voltage 3 phase equipment" tells you all you need to know about the scale of Scott's shop.

Of course, I'm pretty sure I've got a 400hp generator around here somewhere; I think it came with one of my Festools. Come to think of it, I WAS wondering what was in that size 82 systainer...

K

[Jerry Hillenburg]

Lucky to have 400 amp 3 phase service, but I only have four 3 phase pieces of equipment.

Ritter 46 spindle drill with pneumatic table.
Quincy 15 hp compressor.
Powermatic 7 1/2 hp 201 planer.
Agget 15 hp. dust collector.

[Van Huskey]

Scott, the one option I truely forgot was digital phase control, but that is kinda like making a poll about whats your daily driver and leaving off Ferrari...

I actually thought about generators BUT didn't put it in since I thought the only people that would be doing this were either the Amish or people that lives in far flung areas both of which I assumed won't have internet access... I stand corrected!

It is interesting that more than 50% of people that voted run at least one 3ph machine, however, now that I look at it the title of the thread may cause some 1ph folks from even coming into the poll. If there is one thing this forum has taught me that is not wood related is polls are hard to design properly.

[Mike Cruz]

Jerry, is my math off, or does that make 4 pieces of equipment?

[Scott T Smith]

Scott, not sure if he "forgot" it, or just realized that there would probably be 1 vote for running your shop off a 400 hp generator! That must be some kind of shop you've got there... PLEASE don't post pics of it. I don't want to retreat into a corner, and cry like a school girl in envy...:o


(grin). Mike, don't worry - my shop is not that nice.... mainly I'm setup to do some heavy work so I have a lot of equipment tonnage and HP. Kevin's shop is much nicer in terms of tool quality; there's a shop that will make grown men want to cry!

Van, the interesting thing about using a generator to make 3-phase is that is may be less expensive than having the service run to an existing shop (presuming that it is available), plus you then have standby power. My 400HP genny costs me about $20.00 per hour to operate, and I get everything prepared in advance so that once I fire it up I'm working steady (and quickly).

For a smaller shop, I picked up a nice deal on an older, used Onan 7,500 watt 3-phase propane generator that have hooked up to my house as a standby unit(less than $500.00 and it included an ATS). It consumes about 1.2 gallons per hour of propane, and will start a 5 hp motor. It is very quiet, and this would be a viable option instead of an RPC, especially considering the potential for double duty as a standby generator. It won't pull the air conditioning, but it keeps the essentials working (well pump, bathrooms, furnace fan, ceiling fans, fridge, microwave, TV, etc).

[ian maybury]

Our situation is a little different to the US, in that we have a low 60 or 80A rating on most single phase supplies here which rules out single phase motors larger than 3HP - certainly if they have to start under load.

3 phase power is very expensive, our monopoly semi state power company stitches up anybody needing supply with outrageous fees.

Many small shops (myself included) run rotary phase converters with transformers to step up to the required 400V 3 phase - a big advantage is that you can run multiple loads at once up to the rating of the converter. Some install a big one powering a series of hard wired sockets in the shop.

A VFD is also an option where a dual voltage 230V 3 phase motor is possible (EMC regs seemingly prohibit the use of voltage step up transformers on them though), and adds all sorts of capability including variable speed and ease of hooking up controls like e.g. a radio operated switch - as on my 4kW dust system.

One big advantage of both solutions (but especially the VFD which depending on the ramp setting can hold it to only a little above the nameplate value) is that they both ensure that the start up current on motor sizes that absolutely cannot not be run single phase (because it gets far higher than the supply can handle) is held down.

Both involved quite significant research and figuring out - to identify as solutions, figure out how to wire and install - but i've been pleasantly surprised at how seamlessly they function in use.

ian

[Larry Edgerton]

(grin). Mike, don't worry - my shop is not that nice.... mainly I'm setup to do some heavy work so I have a lot of equipment tonnage and HP. Kevin's shop is much nicer in terms of tool quality; there's a shop that will make grown men want to cry!

Van, the interesting thing about using a generator to make 3-phase is that is may be less expensive than having the service run to an existing shop (presuming that it is available), plus you then have standby power. My 400HP genny costs me about $20.00 per hour to operate, and I get everything prepared in advance so that once I fire it up I'm working steady (and quickly).

For a smaller shop, I picked up a nice deal on an older, used Onan 7,500 watt 3-phase propane generator that have hooked up to my house as a standby unit(less than $500.00 and it included an ATS). It consumes about 1.2 gallons per hour of propane, and will start a 5 hp motor. It is very quiet, and this would be a viable option instead of an RPC, especially considering the potential for double duty as a standby generator. It won't pull the air conditioning, but it keeps the essentials working (well pump, bathrooms, furnace fan, ceiling fans, fridge, microwave, TV, etc).

This is something I may have to look in to. My new place is one of the last places on the road to a huge state forrest, and no three phase, little chance they will upgrade. If I ever get a big wide belt it will be my only real option. Its fourty miles out my back door to the next house, so its worth the tradeoff.

I have been eyeing military auctions and sometimes the big diesel generators go for what looks to be scrap pricing. I have some reading to do before I jump.

Larry

[Frank Drew]

When I opened my shop in 1981 I was lucky that 3-phase ran along the highway less than 100 yards away, so I didn't have to pay a premium to have it run to my building. The electric company wanted a load letter, though, detailing what h.p. equipment I'd be using so that know whether it was worth their while to hook me up.

So, most of my equipment was used 3-phase, even my bench grinder.

[David Kumm]

I run mainly three phase with a PP as primary, A Kay as a backup with a double throw switch, and vfds where speed control is needed. 10 hp is my limit. Used industrial has tightened up some although sliding table saws are cheaper than ever. There is more interest in used Euro but anything with early circuit board electronics is risky. Dave

[Peter Quinn]

Used industrial has tightened up some although sliding table saws are cheaper than ever. Dave

I see that too. Wonder why that is? I have a sneaking suspicion lots of shops are adding a CNC and losing an extra slider to make room though I have no substantial facts to support that hypothesis. Any thoughts?

[David Kumm]

I see that too. Wonder why that is? I have a sneaking suspicion lots of shops are adding a CNC and losing an extra slider to make room though I have no substantial facts to support that hypothesis. Any thoughts?

Peter, I agree but have no proof. Beam saws and CNC. I will try to remember to ask in Atlanta. All table saws seem weak. Jointers have gotten stronger, planers to a lesser extent. Shapers solid at 4-5K. Old US shapers are well built but lack speeds and generally good fences. I bought a SCMI SI 16W, replaced bearings and some missing parts and have less than $3500 in it and don't consider it a bottom feeder deal. Dave

[Van Huskey]

Peter and Dave, I think the CNC is a big part of it but I wonder if the average hobbyists has finally started moving into this market ( a little late maybe) and are starting with the simple machines. The jointers seem to be the biggest rebound in proce around here and they are very simple, though table saws are simple they are still weak BUT most people moving this direction are probably happy with their cabinet saws AND used saws usually don't have riving knives nor are they Sawstops. Planers are more complicated and more daunting to buy used, sliders take a lot of room and to the average buyer look pretty complicated...

Dave, have you been able to access if your slider purchase was a boon or bust?

[David Hostetler]

Even in light commercial buildings around here, 3 phase power isn't easy to come by. And I am just a home Hobbyist, so it's single phase power only for me. any consideration of a 3 phase machine for purchase would have to include the cost of repowering the machine with single phase power, and that generally makes 3 phase equipment not such a good deal...

[Erik Loza]

Just some food for thought... If a customer tells me that they have only 1-ph. available and we are talking about only a couple of units, such as a combined machine and a bandsaw, then buying native 1-ph machines makes sense. If someone told me, even a hobbyist, that they were looking at more than, say, three machines (a slider, a jointer/planer, and a big bandsaw, for example...), I would strongly encourage them to consider 3-ph if for no other reason than the power bill and the fact that the motors would run forever. A $2K phase converter doesn't make sense for $10K worth of machines but if we were talking about, say, $20K, then the initial investment/long term savings ratio starts to make sense. Just my 2-cents.

Erik Loza
Minimax USA

[Jeff Duncan]

I also have noticed a bit of tightening in the used market, but I wonder if it's b/c we've reached a point we're most of the weaker shops have gone under and things are finally starting to even out? Having said that we just had a large auction to the south of me in Connecticut with large Griggio shapers selling for under $2k....some even went for under $1k!

My shop is mostly 3 phase machinery. I have 3 phase from the power company so I go out of my way to avoid single phase equipment;)

JeffD

[joe milana]

I also have noticed a bit of tightening in the used market, but I wonder if it's b/c we've reached a point we're most of the weaker shops have gone under and things are finally starting to even out? Having said that we just had a large auction to the south of me in Connecticut with large Griggio shapers selling for under $2k....some even went for under $1k!

My shop is mostly 3 phase machinery. I have 3 phase from the power company so I go out of my way to avoid single phase equipment;)

JeffD


My theory is that the broker network gobbles up machines faster than ever and sets the market price high. Private sellers are browsing the broker sites to find the value of their particular machines and pricing accordingly. I know there are exceptions...

[David Kumm]

Erik, I think the cost of three phase is overstated. There are lots of ways to get into RPCs or VFDs for under $1000. i even got a used PP for just a little more. This is one of the areas where a little free education pays off big. Dave

[Erik Loza]

No disagreement, Dave, except to say that I typically talk new pricing on a rotary unit, like Kay Industries. The customers who call me are wanting something new, warranty, phone tech support, one-stop shopping, that sort of thing. You are absolutely right that there are lots of deals out there for those so inclined. I just talked to a gentleman the other day who asked me if I thought he might be able to get $500 for his 10hp rotary converter, LOL.


Erik, I think the cost of three phase is overstated. There are lots of ways to get into RPCs or VFDs for under $1000. i even got a used PP for just a little more. This is one of the areas where a little free education pays off big. Dave

[Rod Sheridan]

Done...............Rod.

[Rod Sheridan]

Just some food for thought... If a customer tells me that they have only 1-ph. available and we are talking about only a couple of units, such as a combined machine and a bandsaw, then buying native 1-ph machines makes sense. If someone told me, even a hobbyist, that they were looking at more than, say, three machines (a slider, a jointer/planer, and a big bandsaw, for example...), I would strongly encourage them to consider 3-ph if for no other reason than the power bill and the fact that the motors would run forever. A $2K phase converter doesn't make sense for $10K worth of machines but if we were talking about, say, $20K, then the initial investment/long term savings ratio starts to make sense. Just my 2-cents.

Erik Loza
Minimax USA

Hi Eric, I wouldn't expect that it would cost less for a hobby user to run 3 phase machines compared to single phase. Once you account for the losses in the phase converter it would either be a wash, or a loss.................Regards, Rod.

[Van Huskey]

Even in light commercial buildings around here, 3 phase power isn't easy to come by. And I am just a home Hobbyist, so it's single phase power only for me. any consideration of a 3 phase machine for purchase would have to include the cost of repowering the machine with single phase power, and that generally makes 3 phase equipment not such a good deal...

In many if not most cases repowering a 3ph machine with a 1ph motor is usually not the most cost effective way to power it.

[Mike Cruz]

Oh, heck yeah! If a machine has 2 hp 3 ph motor, you can add a NEW VFD for $150. You'll have to search far and wide for a new 2 hp 1 ph motor for that price. Now if you have to/want to upgrade the hp, you end up a little more on the "even" side with a used 3 ph motor and a new VFD...being about the price of the upgraded new 1 phase motor. But with the VFD, you get all kinds of options that a 1 phase motor will not give you.

For example: If your machine has a 2 hp 3 phase motor, you can the FVD for about $150 as I said earlier. If the machine has a 1 hp 3 phase motor, and you want 2 hp, here's what you do... Buy a used 2 hp 3 ph motor for $100. Buy a new VFD or $150. That is $250 in. BUT you can sell the old 1 hp 1 ph motor for $50-100 depending on age and condition. So, out of pocket is $150-200.

But if you just changed the motor over to single phase (with the upgrade of hp), about $200 is what you'd pay for a new 2hp 3 ph motor.

And I think you are WAY better off with the 3ph motor and VFD.

[Jeff Duncan]

So where is everyone????

At this point there are 189 votes, with a membership if close to 64,000 that's a pretty small sample! Even if 75% of members don't own any machinery that's still a small sample! Over 1200 views and only 189 votes.....hmmmmm I'm not sure what that says....but it must say something:confused:

JeffD

[Mike Cruz]

It says a couple of things: It says that Van was right that he miss titled the thread...making 1 phase only owners skip the thread; it also means (by the high view count) that a lot of people that responded/voted came back to look at what others wrote...which in turn makes it a good thread because people didn't just answer and leave, they answered and kept tuning in. I, for one, have probably checked in (viewed) at least 10 times...

Though, I do agree that there have to be more than 200 of us with 3 phase machines. But do remember...there probably aren't 64,000 "active" members. While they may be "active" in that they check in from time to time, I don't think that all 64,000 check in all that often. Not to mention not all 64,000 are woodworkers...we have all sorts here, and a bunch of Neanders, too.

[Van Huskey]

Mike is probably right on all counts. I do think I should have constructed a better title to get more of the single phase only folks in.

Over time I have learned at least I should make a test poll, figure out what I am doing wrong (I always screw them up) and do the same thing again based on what I have learned.

[Mike Cruz]

I'm right there with ya, Van. Except for my record braking 1000+ votes poll which I TOTALLY didn't see coming as a big poll. I was just shooting from the hip... But other times when I thought it would draw a huge crowd....beans...

[Van Huskey]

I'm right there with ya, Van. Except for my record braking 1000+ votes poll which I TOTALLY didn't see coming as a big poll. I was just shooting from the hip... But other times when I thought it would draw a huge crowd....beans...

I actually thought about that poll. The other thing is if it hangs around near the top for a while, they tend to get about 200 votes in 2-3 days then if they drop off the top they are gone. I suppose a lot of members just drop by once a week, if it stays at the top then they vote. The one thing I will note is I rarely see any significant difference in the distribution after 100 votes or so. With this poll I think the distribution of the way people power 3 phase is probably accurate, however based on the title I think it presents a skewed view of folks with just single phase machines.

[Mike Cruz]

You know, Van, VFDs were in second place almost the entire time (at least by my count), but they just got passed by RPCs!

[Van Huskey]

I am just sad nobody starts their 3ph machines like a weedeater... :mad:

[Mike Cruz]

You know, when I got my first 3 phase machine, the guy that was hooking it all up for me told me I could do that... I looked at him a little funny, thinking he was kidding, but apparently he wasn't...

BTW, Van, I think you did an excellent job with the poll...You really included pretty much every option. Seems well thought out.

[Ryan Wood]

I have no need for 3 phase because my shop is so small I dont think that I could fit a machine thats so big it needs 3 phase power. I just wish that I had 220 in my shop but I hope to change that some time this summer and am going to have one 220 plug added and 8 110 plugs on 2 circuts.

[Michael W. Clark]

I am just sad nobody starts their 3ph machines like a weedeater... :mad:

Anyone remember the woodworking show that was on DIY network for a shortime with this guy and his helper that were working in a small shop and always talked to the camera crew? It was short-lived but I think he had an old BS that he would pre-spin then start it, I assumed it was 3-phase. I didn't much care for the show but Van's post made me think of it.

[Mike Cruz]

Ryan, 3 phase equipment isn't necessarily any bigger (though sometimes it is) than single phase equipment. For example: My lathe is a Powermatic 90. It came in either 1 ph or 3 ph...depending on whether it was purchased for "home" use, or if it went to a school. Likewise, my Powermatic belt/disc sander is 3 phase. But it comes in the exact same size/model with a single phase motor. Granted, both machines that have single phase motors are 220, but I don't see any reason why they couldn't be 110 single phase. Both pieces of equipment came with 1 and 1.5 hp motors respectfully...well small enough for 110.

Things change however when you get to 5 hp and above, and that is where the big machines with 3 phase come in...and yeah, I probably don't have room for those either.

[Van Huskey]

You know, when I got my first 3 phase machine, the guy that was hooking it all up for me told me I could do that... I looked at him a little funny, thinking he was kidding, but apparently he wasn't...

BTW, Van, I think you did an excellent job with the poll...You really included pretty much every option. Seems well thought out.

I honestly have never seen anyone start a MACHINE like that BUT I do know of people that start the 3 phase idler motor for their RPC like a weedeater. When it is up to speed the motor runs at reduced hp just like a using a SPC.