Dealing with hard,hard maple?

[Terry Therneau]

I'm working on a cradle for the first grandchild. The wood is from a maple tree in my parent's front yard (third base when we played ball), which has been air drying for the last upteen years in the upstairs of my barn waiting for the right project. Swirly grain, some bark inclusions-- really pretty. I got a local shop to plane the largest board (19" wide by about 11' long and flat as a woodworkers bench) using their 24" helical knife Northfield and it left some chip out. I thought "I'll hand plane the flaws", but I can't physically push the plane. So pulled out the sander. I draw 8's across the board with a carpenter's pencil, sand them out, draw more, etc so as to stay reasonably even. I ended up with the 3x21 belt sander and 50 grit paper, and it still takes a half dozen passes to remove a line, about an hour for one of the two (solid) sides.

I've never worked with something this hard. My normal for curved parts (and this is half curves) is to make a pattern of mdf, sand it to perfection, bandsaw close to the line for the actual wood, then use the shaper + pattern to get a copy. (3-wing HSS 1.75" cutter with matching bushing -- works like a charm). But I was get chipping with newly sharpened jointer knives, so I thought I'd better test first on a larger scrap. Didn't work worth a darn. It sounds like you are working a mixture of wood and window glass, and looks as you would expect from the sound.

I'm looking for suggestions. Baby is due at the end of July so I need to make progress. It bandsaws smoothly, and rips well (0 clearance insert, Freud blade). Just devote my next week to sanding?

Thanks in advance for any ideas.

Terry T.

[joe milana]

Try taking super light passes on the jointer, try changing directions to eliminate the chip out. Also, you might consider using a router & spiral bit for your pattern cutting as opposed to the shaper. Use high speed & quick light passes, and climb cut when possible.

[John Michaels]

Do any of the cabinet shops in the area have a drum/belt sander. You would probably have to run the wood through the sander quite a few times to remove the chipout, but this would likely be less tedious than the type sanding you've done already.

[Van Huskey]

+1 on drum or widebelt for the slab. For the pattern work I agree with a router climb cutting with VERY light passes, the high number of cuts per inch should work but have several bits ready for the job...

[scott spencer]

I feel your pain Terry! BTDT with our island top made from hard maple that I salvaged from bumper boards at work....taking a small sander to it is like bailing out the Titanic with a bucket. A shop with a wide belt sander sounds like the best approach to me.

[Peter Quinn]

You could try a Byrd head with a bearing for the flush trim. Amana makes a pretty effective version too. Much better results than a 3 wing. Ive seen some wild old growth cherry with gnarly grain comeout babys bottom smooth off a byrd head. Also remember to pay close attention to the grain direction on the maple. You may have to flip the work over and change bearing to which ever position it wasn't ( top to bottom or vice versa). Obviously you can't climb cut curves on the shaper, but you can run half a curve, pull out, then change the bearing and run the other half so you are always running down hill relative to the grain. You could also get a sanding head depending on which shaper you have. Mine has a slow (1700 rpm) speed for pattern sanding, if not they make a DP version. Do not run a sanding head on a shaper above 2000rpm or burning is likely.

For the slab, wide belt is your friend there.

[Phil Thien]

You need either an appreciation for a little bit of chipout, or an abrasive planer, for that stuff.

Just finished a project with some very hard maple. The bandaw made some funny noises cutting the stuff, and the planer taking less than 1/64th inch cuts left some rough surfaces. I was able to work around the problems.

[Bill White]

Believe it or not, I had some white oak used in a table top that was that hard. It wouldn't sand with my ROS. Had to use a card scraper to slick it up. It is amazing how hard some common woods can be.
Wide belt sander will work if ya can find someone with one.
My top was too big for a wide belt.
Bill

[Michael W. Clark]

Just made some doors, drawers, drawer fronts, wainscoating, and cabinets with hard maple frames (basement wetbar). Take veeery light passes. I was taking 1/64 on the planer on high feed rate and still getting chip-out. I had to run slow speed and between 1/64 adn 1/128 passes with the grain on finish passes. For jointing, I have an old Rockwell 6" where I just installed new knives. Again veeery light passes. I raised the infeed table until I wasn't making a cut, then lowered it a whisker. For sanding I used a Festool Rotex and RTS. I didn't have any trouble sanding, but it was slower and the paper wore pretty quickly. Some boards were worse than others. I did dovetail drawer boxes but didn't have any trouble with that.

[mreza Salav]

To reduce chip outs while planing I'd spray a bit of water on the board and let it soak a bit (use distilled water if you have) and take very light passes.
When the surface is wet you'd get very little (if any) cheap outs.

[Carl Beckett]

I have used hard maple a lot. Currently a batch of chairs

It's a pain. ( lots of cussing and swearing)

Sand when possible. Light cuts, spiral bits, etc etc all good advice. It does dull blades fast

For hand planing make sure your plane is SHARP and close the throat down. Then go to the scraper for cleaning it up

The goods news is that if you get it the way you like it, it will last forever

[Brian Kent]

I agree with the use of a drum sander. I also recommend any of the high angle planes from Mujingfang that are called "polish planes". Very good blade, angle, and effectiveness on hard, crispy, confused grain.
http://www.japanwoodworker.com/product.asp?s=JapanWoodworker&pf_id=98%2E107%2E3155&dept_id=13602

[David Posey]

You could also use a water/denatured alcohol mix for this. With the handplane, how sharp was the blade and how deep was your cut?

If this won't work or is way too much effort then I'd try card scrapers or find a wide belt sander.

[Van Huskey]

I agree with the use of a drum sander. I also recommend any of the high angle planes from Mujingfang that are called "polish planes". Very good blade, angle, and effectiveness on hard, crispy, confused grain.
http://www.japanwoodworker.com/product.asp?s=JapanWoodworker&pf_id=98%2E107%2E3155&dept_id=13602

Don't mean to hijack but this ineterest me.

How would this compare to a scraper plane in use and results?

[Dick Strauss]

I had the same issue when trying to use a Delta 15" planer on really tight tiger maple (10 complete grain reversals per inch). I tried all of the tricks (skewing, wetting, etc) and still had chip out using the Delta single speed planer with freshly sharpened blades.

Try finding someone with a variable feed rate planer. I used a neighbor's Woodmaster 18" at medium speed and still had the issue. I kept slowing it down until it was running very slowly but was cutting very cleanly (by taking lots more cuts per inch) and had really good luck. It took me several days to plane over 100 bf of this material and some 10/4 cherry slabs, but it was worth it.

[Terry Therneau]

Gentlemen,
Thanks for all your input.
I went back to the bandsaw and cut much closer to the line, put a new carbide bit in the router, and life is good. About 3/5 of the curves are done. On the last cut the bit stopped wanting to cut; +1 to the person who suggested I'd go through multiple bits before I was done. The curve wasn't perfect but a scraper cleaned them up quickly, and was fun to use besides.

One reason I like the shaper over the router is that it reverses, so I can do both parts of a curve without re-attaching the template. A pair of bits, one top and one bottom bearing, is another choice suggested above, one I hadn't thought of. If I took the time to really sharpen the shaper bit, i.e., shave hair, it likely would do a good job on this as well.

The remaining boards were 12" or less so I could use my own planer. It's a Solem, a model that none of you have likely ever seen ( http://www.vintagemachinery.org/mfgIndex/imagedetail.aspx?id=756). It has separate motors for the cutterhead and the feed, and I have a VFD on the feed motor so I can slow the feed way down. I'm getting no chip out on the remaining boards using that strategy with newly sharpened knives.
(For the curious, that "skirt" that forms the stand is 1/2" cast iron and weighs around 350 lbs on its own.)

I had one bad moment when I tried to climb cut a spot -- going the wrong direction --- when that stuff grabs I cannot hold it back (and I've climb cut before). A quick szoop and I had a wooden fan 6" long and 1/2 deep. I had to redraw the curve of the top of the headboard to get under it, but luckily the new shape is actually more pleasing than the old. What I did was stupid of course and I'll do my best to avoid a repeat. Close with the band saw, no more climbs, and cut down into the grain on curves.

The place where I buy my hardwood has a wide belt, and I'll be going back to run the 3 largest parts (which came from the big board) through it.

Terry T.