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mike klein
06-19-2012, 9:58 PM
I have a customer who really likes the Alder wood frames, but wants them in BLACK with white engraving.
Anyone ever tried applying a black finish to these and if so what did you use, or should I just go to
Colorado Heirloom and purchase their colored frames.

Mike

Bruce Clumpner
06-20-2012, 5:33 AM
I'd vote to buy them, unless you're set up with a spray booth.

Mike Chance in Iowa
06-20-2012, 2:15 PM
Your timing couldn't be better. Yesterday, I picked up some white primer to try spraying a scratched alder wood frame. I plan to cover the white primer paint with some sort of flat or gloss black paint once it dries and then test it out.

Ross Moshinsky
06-20-2012, 8:45 PM
You have to paint it. Mask it. Engrave it. Then paint it again. I'd say the price just tripled.

Chuck Stone
06-21-2012, 8:51 AM
That'll work .. similar to the scratchboard technique. White primer! Perfect.. why didn't I think
of that??? (I've been using gesso with powdered marble and titanium oxide as a base!)

The laser doesn't go thru the primer, so all you're really taking off is the top coat of paint.
Fast and easy.

Yes, it means spraying primer and then spraying the top color..

Martin Boekers
06-21-2012, 10:34 AM
Your timing couldn't be better. Yesterday, I picked up some white primer to try spraying a scratched alder wood frame. I plan to cover the white primer paint with some sort of flat or gloss black paint once it dries and then test it out.

Mike, I have never used white primer. What things have you used this on? Glass, metals, plastic? I
am intrigued of the possibilities!

Mike Chance in Iowa
06-21-2012, 2:45 PM
I have brush-painted white primer on various wood & MDF items on a number of home painting projects, but never thought to try it with engraving until the other day. Here's the steps & results of my first attempt at working with rattle can white primer:

Material List
1 new spray can Rust-oleum Painter's Touch Ultra Cover White Primer (label on can says: 2x coverage. Also bonds to plastic. Wet or Dry Sandable. Use on bare or painted wood, metal, plastic and more)
1 old spray can HD Designs Semi-Flat Black (label on cay says: Interior/Exterior, Durable enamel Finish, For wood, wicker, metal & more)
1 4x6 alder wood frame

Steps
I sprayed 3 light coats of white primer, waiting 30 minutes each time before spraying the next coat.
I waited 1 hour after the last coat of primer and then sprayed 1 coat of black. It's an old can so it was a little fussy. I did not spray it as evenly as I would have liked.
I let it set overnight.
(I did not do any sanding on this project. I wanted to see how it would look without sanding.)

I selected fairly light engraving settings knowing that if it was too light, I could always do another pass. On my 45-watt engraver, 90/10 produced an interesting effect as you can see in the attached photo, but it had a long way to go to expose the white primer underneath.

I bumped up the settings to 90/15 and had to do 2 more passes to remove all the black. Most of my problem was tied to the black paint being thick in some areas and thin in other areas.

Cleaning the smoke debris was a challenge. The black paint does not have cleaning suggestions. When I wiped the paint debris off with a dry terry cloth towel, it left white streaks in the black paint where I wiped. I then tried cleaning the frame with a damp paper towel. That helped remove most of the streaks, but you can still see them when you tilt the frame at different angles. I then tried using Pledge sprayed on a paper towel and it helped a little more, but still not enough. Okay ... knowing better but not really caring at this point, let's see what DNA will do! I sprayed DNA on a paper towel and wiped the frame. Hmmm. It still didn't remove the white streaks, but it changed the slightly glossy black to a very dull black.

The 2nd photo was taken before I used DNA on the frame. As you can see, there is potential.

Next time I run into town, I'd like to see if Rust-oleum Painter's Touch has a semi-flat black paint. I like how easy & smooth their primer sprayed. I think I may try 4 coats of white primer next time just to make certain I have it thick enough.

234996234995

Mark Conde
06-23-2012, 3:08 PM
That's way too much time burned to be profitable.
There's tons of places to buy them from on the web. You just have to dig a little.

Chuck Stone
06-23-2012, 4:29 PM
That's way too much time burned to be profitable.
There's tons of places to buy them from on the web. You just have to dig a little.

i don't know about that.. it probably doesn't take much longer to do 10 frames than
it does to do one.. and you're not charging the customer for the time to let the
paint dry..
Plus, you're able to offer a product that isn't available anywhere else.

mike klein
06-23-2012, 4:52 PM
I'm going to check out the black frames that JDS Industries has to offer. They engrave bright gold or bright silver. I assume they are metal frames though.

Martin Boekers
06-25-2012, 10:22 AM
That's way too much time burned to be profitable.
There's tons of places to buy them from on the web. You just have to dig a little.

Mark, who sells wood frames that engrave to a color? I don't think I have ever seen that before.
This process is something new to me, using primer paint as a color base that the laser won't affect.

I wish I had some time to fiddle with it now.

Mike Chance in Iowa
06-25-2012, 2:49 PM
I agree that time spent on prep work can cut into your profit, but if I only need a few of these types of frames a year, I'm glad to know I have the ability to create a colored frame.

I did do another quick test and discovered the Rust-oleum primer can be engraved through. This is not automotive primer, but appears to be household paint primer. I picked up a spray can of white PlastiKote sandable automotive primer and will give that a try in a few days when I have more time.

Joe Hillmann
06-26-2012, 9:40 AM
If you are trying to find a white paint that the laser can't engrave into you might want to try titanium gesso. Depending on how much titanium is in in it the laser may not be able to engrave it and it is a nice, very bright white. This is just a suggestion as I have never played gesso before.

Chuck Stone
06-26-2012, 3:42 PM
If you are trying to find a white paint that the laser can't engrave into you might want to try titanium gesso. Depending on how much titanium is in in it the laser may not be able to engrave it and it is a nice, very bright white. This is just a suggestion as I have never played gesso before.

I have.. it works well. But gesso is brushed on, dried, sanded .. repeat 3x. Then spray on your color coat.
It works.. but something less time consuming would be nice

Can't see this pic all that well, but it's gesso with titanium white, sprayed black and then
etched with the laser to remove the top coat (black) it's MDF. Reducing the pic size loses
the detail.. and seems to put lines where there aren't any in person..

Joe Hillmann
06-26-2012, 3:51 PM
I have.. it works well. But gesso is brushed on, dried, sanded .. repeat 3x. Then spray on your color coat.
It works.. but something less time consuming would be nice

Can't see this pic all that well, but it's gesso with titanium white, sprayed black and then
etched with the laser to remove the top coat (black) it's MDF. Reducing the pic size loses
the detail.. and seems to put lines where there aren't any in person..


So, is the gesso unable to be engraved by the laser even if you try? Or do you just put it on thick enough that you won't engrave through it? Also if you can't spray it on then that makes the price so high you couldn't do sell it anyways.

Chuck Stone
06-26-2012, 7:30 PM
I think it's the combination of ti white and number of coats. I suppose you COULD spray it, but
I didn't. I just wanted to try it. But I don't think the time would be that much different for
spraying vs brushing when you consider the time/cost of cleanup unless you're doing
a lot of it. Slapping a coat onto MDF with a disposable foam brush isn't like working it into
a canvas with an artist's brush.. it doesn't really take much time

Dee Gallo
06-27-2012, 9:08 AM
Chuck have you tried a skinny foam roller? If you go slowly to avoid bubbles, it will give you a fast even coat. 1-2-3 sand, you're done. Just do each coat perpendicular to the previous coat. Personally, I'd just airbrush using a #5 tip - easy.

cheers, dee

Chuck Stone
06-27-2012, 9:46 PM
haven't tried a skinny foam roller .. haven't seen one!
I'll check next time I'm near paints..

Doesn't give you peaks?

Mike Chance in Iowa
06-28-2012, 2:40 PM
A follow-up on the PlastiKote primer - I was able to engrave thru that too. Since this thread's subject is so different, I'll create a new thread with the subject of primer....