Moulder knives for the shop fox w1812. Unviversal number scheme?

[dirk martin]

My brother just aquired a Shop Fox W1812 moulder.
Where are the rest of you buying your knives?
And, when I go to Woodstock International, as an example I see they have a set of knives called their D3325 moulder set. Is that number "D3315" universal? Meaning, can I give that number to another knife company, and they know the profile I'm after?

I did a search on Sawmill Creek for "moulder knives", and I get threads with "moulder", and threads with "knives". I was hoping to only get threads with the phrase "moulder knives". And, yes, I used quotes.

[Peter Quinn]

Dick, any place that can grind corrugated insert knives can generally also grind knives for that molder. They use the Williams and Hussey bolt pattern, so specify a profile, and let them know its for a Shop fox/williams and Hussey clone. I get mine form Connecticut Saw and Tool, but I'd guess there is somebody closer to you, perhaps Wisconsin Knife Works? (http://www.oellasawandtool.com/ saw and tool ) is another good option. Dave's knives are great, I have a handful, he does Hussey knives too. Do a net search on "molding knives", there are tons of people out there. You can also get "combination knives" that have both a corrugated back and the bolt hole pattern for the W&H/shop fox molder. This makes sense for a profile that you might want to run curves on the shop fox but straights in the same profile would be easier to run and rip on a shaper. Or say you and he want to share a set of knives, you on the shaper, he on the molder?

AFAIK, there is no magic or universality to any of the numbers on the shop fox/Woodstock knives. I think they pulled those out of their posterior. Most grinders will make a template from a cad drawing then grind from that. If you send them either a drawing (need not be in cad in most cases), a sketch, a JPEG, or even an actual molding sample, they can generally match anything you can provide. Also check the Hussey site, they sell a good selection of top quality knives too.

[dirk martin]

AFAIK, there is no magic or universality to any of the numbers on the shop fox/Woodstock knives. I think they pulled those out of their posterior.

I'm not too sure about that, Peter.
When I do a Google search on that number: D3325, I get hits from Amazon, Woodstock, Elite Tools, Tools and More, Tools and Bits.com, and a host of other mfg's. So, I'm thinking those knife model numbers, may be somewhat universal....

For others that may be following this thread, here's some pricing for the Shop Fox D3325 Moulding Knives 1-3/4" Bead & Cove:Tools and More: $39.12
Tools and Bits: $35.18
Woodstock: $39.95
Elite Tools: $55.00
Belsaw: $39.95
Williams and Hussy: $80.00

[ed vitanovec]

wdr-sales.com I have bought knives for the Woodmaster and they have been great, Bill the owner will custom grind any knife profile for any machine at a resonable price. All the knives he has made for me have been from CAD files I have sent him.

[Peter Quinn]

I'm not too sure about that, Peter.
When I do a Google search on that number: D3325, I get hits from Amazon, Woodstock, Elite Tools, Tools and More, Tools and Bits.com, and a host of other mfg's. So, I'm thinking those knife model numbers, may be somewhat universal....

For others that may be following this thread, here's some pricing for the Shop Fox D3325 Moulding Knives 1-3/4" Bead & Cove:

Tools and More: $39.12
Tools and Bits: $35.18
Woodstock: $39.95
Elite Tools: $55.00
Belsaw: $39.95
Williams and Hussy: $80.00


Perhaps we are using a different Google? I get a bunch of random stuff with the number D3325, and a hand full of vendors selling Woodstock knives. I don't find other knife makers using the same numbers to denote their own knives of the same pattern, which to me would designate a " universal numbering scheme". There used to be a company called The Universal Millwork Company that produced a catalogue of moldings, they were appearantly one of the largest at the turn of the 19th century and many people seemed to follow their numbering scheme for moldings. Can you find another vendor selling the same profile with the same number NOT made by Woodstock INt.

[dirk martin]

I think so...
http://toolsandmore.us/shop-fox-d3325-moulding-knives.aspx

[Peter Quinn]

I think so...
http://toolsandmore.us/shop-fox-d3325-moulding-knives.aspx

Dirk, That is a shop fox dealer. Those are shop fox knives. They use the shop fox item number. Any shop fox dealer will use the same shop fox number for the same shop fox item. Here is a good independent molding knife maker. http://www.customouldingknives.com/Crowns.html. They have a very similar pattern available. It does not use item number d3325. It is not a "shop fox" knife, but they can make it for the the shop fox molder at your request by grinding it into the bar stock for the Hussey/shop fox molders. There is no "universal" component to the shop fox numbering scheme. They gave each knife a number, every vendor that sells their knives will use that number. Other knife makers will generally assign their own numbering scheme to their profile catalogue.

[dirk martin]

But if I was a seller of mouldering knives, I'd use the same numbers Shop Fox is, to make it a lot easier to communicate with my customers. Why would I make up my own numbering scheme, that nobody else would know? It seems it would be a lot easier to say to a customer "we make and sell knife D3325 for $29". They can see online what that knife looks like, at a hundred different websites.

[John Coloccia]

But if I was a seller of mouldering knives, I'd use the same numbers Shop Fox is, to make it a lot easier to communicate with my customers. Why would I make up my own numbering scheme, that nobody else would know? It seems it would be a lot easier to say to a customer "we make and sell knife D3325 for $29". They can see online what that knife looks like, at a hundred different websites.

Why would you use ShopFox's numbers for anything? The numbering scheme is not standard (the equivalent W&H knife is 1050, I think), and you would have to try and cross reference everyone else's numbers too. Picking ShopFox as some sort of standard seems a little strange. It would be like picking WoodRiver's router bit numbering instead of simply calling it a 1/2" roundover.

[dirk martin]

Why would you use ShopFox's numbers for anything?.... It would be like picking WoodRiver's router bit numbering instead of simply calling it a 1/2" roundover.

Because if you do a search on Google for that number, you get about 1000 hits, making it easy for customers to see the profile.
Your router bit example doesn't quite apply. Calling that router bit a 1/2" roundover works fine, but what would you call the D3325 moulder knife?

[John Coloccia]

Look, Dirk. You asked if the numbers where universal. We're telling you it's ShopFox's own number (Woodstock's, I guess). Now you're saying that everyone should standardize on their numbering scheme. If anything, I would think that people would tend to standardize on William and Hussey's numbering scheme, so maybe send an e-mail to Woodstock and let them know that you're unhappy that they invented their own scheme.

But to answer your question, I would call it a Woodstock D3325 moulding knife. I would call the William and Hussey 1 3/4" moulding knife a William and Hussey 1050. If Woodstock exactly copied the W&H 1050, I don't know. They may not be the same profile. If you're hung up on getting Woodstock's exact profile, you'll have to buy Woodstock's cutter, compare it to another manufactures cutter to find another manufacturer that matches it perfectly, or take it to a tool maker to copy. Those are the options as I see them.

Show me just one of those 1000 hits that isn't selling the Woodstock D3325 cutter. You may surprise me, but I don't find one that isn't a Woodstock/Shopfox part. It's just people selling the Shopfox cutter. This has already been mentioned. If you don't want to bother to notice that only Woodstock happens to be using that random number for some random profile they happen to make, then I don't know what else to say. I'm open to being wrong and to having that be some sort of standard, but it looks to me like a random number given to a random profile.

[dirk martin]

There are so many selling the D3325 profile, that don't even mention Woodstock, that it's too hard to tell if they are making that profile themselves, or simply reselling Woodstocks. If you began making that profile, and selling it, I doubt you'd call it the "Woodstock D3325 moulding knife". That would lead folks to believe you're buying from Woodstock, and reselling them. But, I still think it would be smart to call it, simply "Moulder Profile D3325", and then, like I said, everyone could easily see what that profile looks like. There are plenty of sellers now, of profile D3325 that don't even mention Woodstock...which leads me to believe others are doing just as I would.

[Peter Quinn]

Dirk, Shop fox is a Johnny come lately small potatoes player in the molding world. Not only is their numbering scheme not universal to other knife manufacturers, there is no reason nor likelihood that it ever should be. They offer only a small number of the nearly infinite variety of potential molding profiles, they barely cover even the basics with their offering. Every vendor you listed initially is either selling Woodstock knives (the tooling brand name for Grizzly's retail arm, Shop Fox) or you are incorrect. Williams and Hussey does not list anything numbered D3325 on their site. THey are the inventors, designers, originators of this class of small molders. If anyone's numbering scheme should be followed as universal, IMHO, it is theirs, not Shop Fox. All the other vendors you list are reselling woodstock Int knives, without exception. They are all shop fox dealers, without exception.

The profile represented by shop fox's D3325 is a fairly popular bed molding (like a small crown, but the last curve is convex, thus representing strength, as if to hold up what is above it, rather then terminate a transition, but lets not get into that now....) You can find a similar example in the catalogue of nearly every knife MAKER. Shop fox copied and offers a few basic classic profiles popular in this country. Every reseller you have listed is a shop fox dealer, I doubt most of them have the capacity to make their own knives, but in any event it appears advantageous to them to simply sell the inexpensive knives offered as the Woodstock brand. Does this make it any clearer? There is only one MANUFACTURER making D3325, there are lots of people selling woodstock knives, just like there are lots of people selling cheerios and duracell batteries. The number a given manufacturer assigns to a given profile is largely random and completely irrelevant.

http://moldingknives.com/
http://www.woodmastermoldingknives.com/
http://www.wmooreprofiles.com/
http://www.customouldingknives.com/
http://www.williamsnhussey.com/collections/in-stock-knives
http://www.oellasawandtool.com/

These are all knife makers. Just a small selection of them. See any D3325 knives on theses sites?

[dirk martin]

See any D3325 knives on theses sites?

Ummmm, yeah. Moldingknives.com has this on their website:

235032


The number a given manufacturer assigns to a given profile is largely random and completely irrelevant.
I think that should read "some manufacturer's", rather than "a given manufacturer". I argue they'd be steps ahead, if they simply copied Woodstocks numbering. Wouldn't it be nice if you could simply call Woodmaster and ask their pricing on the D3325 knife? Instead you've gotta try and figure out their equivalent.

Also, I have a relative in Montana that is a machinist, and he plans on getting into the moulding knife mfg business. I told him I'd create his website. He plans on using the same numbering scheme that that Woodstock is...or maybe W&H. When he's up and running, the statement "there is only one manufacturer making the D3325", won't be true. And, I honestly doubt there is only one, even today.

Your argument that there are lots of people selling cheerios and duracell, doesn't quite hold water. Cheerios and Duracell are trademarked, thus there can only be one mfg of those. D3325 is not trademarked, thus, anyone can make that profile, and call it D3325.

I'm finding this an interesting discussion, thanks for partaking.

[Bill ThompsonNM]

Two important points: The first, made already, Shop fox is really a Latecomer to the party with fewer knife options than others, not a good idea to use that as a standard for naming. Point 2, the real place you should be looking for standards is the industry who sells trim and molding. When I first bought my W&H, it came with a book from something like the western pine trim association (unfortunately its in storage ) which had trim names and designations. Their knife naming came from that document. Today if you google for molding profiles, it appears that there are a number of references and standards. It would appear that designers and architects do not have a master catalog of profiles. Knife names are sort of irrelevant since its the end result of trim that's specified whether it's made on a molder or shaper or by hand with a molding plane.