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Dale Critchlow
04-04-2005, 10:44 PM
I am about to stain a set of maple dining room chairs I am making for my daughter. I have been experimenting with water soluble aniline dyes (Honey Amber) and have found some blotching.

Teri Masasuri describes finishing bird's-eye maple in the May/June 2003 issue of Fine Woodworking. In particular, she describes using a concentrated dye such as TransTint in clear shellac.

Questions: Would this give less blotching than using water soluble dye? Are there some downsides to using dye in shellac?

By the way, I did read the thread started by Scott Parks in October 2004 which had some good information including spraying of alcohol soluble dyes.


Thanks,

Dale Critchlow

Keith Christopher
04-05-2005, 12:17 AM
Dale,


Good advice will follow here I'm sure. But I always recommend going home on this sort of question. Homestead finishing has a forum moderated by owner/finish guru Jeff Jewitt. pop on over there and ask as well. Those folks LOVE finishing !
I can't tell how many answers I have gotten on there for finishing. I've far from a guru but man I sure get nice smooth shiny polys and more (note the use of the word MORE as I'm inept here) even staining/dyeing of woods. google it.


KEith

Jason Ochoada
04-05-2005, 12:29 AM
Hey Dale,

I am far from an expert but I recently sprayed a hard maple bed that I made with transtint dyes mixed in water. I was amazed how even the color went on. It was a great experience for me and I bet it would work for you also.

I haven't used the dye shellac option although it was suggested to me when I inquired about preventing splotching. I was just worried because I was trying to dye large panels that if I didn't move quick enough I may not have enough time to cover the whole panel before it would start to dry. In your case on chairs it probably would work great because you could cover all the surfaces quickly and evenly.


Good luck
Jason

Alan Turner
04-05-2005, 5:48 AM
I'll weigh in a bit here, although finishing is not my favoirte task. A dye, be its medium water or alcohol, will color maple to a greater extent than a large molecule "stain" becuase it will penetrate the hard maple more effectively. As far as using a dye mixed with shellac, this simply colors the shellac, and is part of the film finish. Chip it, and the color is gone. It is in the film, not the wood. It is generally called "toning". I use a toning shellac to even out color variations. or to slightly change a color. For example, on the hutch on my website, I used a toned shellac to achieve the color I wanted and knew that the piece owuld not be banged around. But, on a chair, or table, I would be more cautious with this approach. You can also use toning to repair a piece where there has been a patch, or a chip or scuff which exposes non-patina'ed wood (Is that a word?) Toning is not terribly light fast; it will fade with time in sun. If you are going to tone shellac, then cover the toning coats with clear coats for durability. And, be carefull in sanding back as you will remove dust nibs and color together. Finally, water is fine medium with a hand application, but alcohol as an agent is better sprayed as you can better keep a wet edge.

lou sansone
04-05-2005, 6:33 AM
a few questions I would ask are

1. are you working with hard maple or soft?
2. what grit have you sanded to ( assuming that you have not hand scraped the entire set of chairs)
3. how are you applying the dye? by hand or spraying it on.

lou

Jim Becker
04-05-2005, 9:43 AM
Adding the dye to the shellac (or any other "clear" finish) results in a toner. For the most part, the dye will not be penetrating the wood anywhere close to what it would if applied directly to the wood, whether you are using a water soluble or an alcohol soluble dye. Maple is challenging to color, but dyes are the best, IMHO, for the job. I primarily use water-soluble dye for this since it can be hand-applied. Alcohol soluble dyes are best sprayed on as they flash off so fast it's very hard to avoid or get rid of overlaps.

One technique that can be very nice with maple is to apply a water based dye, allow it to dry and then sand it back so that the dye only remains in the more porous figure. This can be repeated as needed to further highlight the effect. Once that is done, shellac, alone or dyed as a toner is used to seal things and adjust the overall coloration of the wood before moving to the chosen top coat finish. Many of the "really awesome" examples of figured maple I've seen were finished this way. Adjusting the color of the dye(s) used varies the effect.

One thing to remember about using dyes: After you apply them, the color will be "not" what you are looking for in the immediate sense. They will be dull and lifeless until you move forward with the next finishing steps. For this reason, it is ESSENTIAL that you do your finishing regimen all the way through on scraps of the same material your project is made with to insure that the final effect is what you desire. Plan for this when you are acquiring materials! You must have enough scrap to do several iterations as you adjust your regimen before you move on to the real project.

Tim Sproul
04-05-2005, 10:36 AM
"honey amber."

I'd think you might be better off just using one of the darker shellacs. Garnet. Seedlac. Get a pound of several different types.......give it a couple days to dissolve. You can easily control color intensity by how thick a layer you put on. With shellac, you generally control how thick by how many coats....and the "cut" of shellac you apply in each coat. Shellac gets fairly glossy as it gets thick....especially the lighter colored shellacs like super blonde and platina.

I've never been a fan of water soluble finishes for furniture - they raise the grain and increase the timeline for a finish schedule. The only water-base I like is paint when trimming a house. Another alternative is to use BLO. BLO will darken with age....and hard maple will also darken a bit with age although not to the extent that cherry does.

I also like your idea of finishing a chair with shellac....and would recommend you stay away from dyeing the shellac. In the future, the seat and back and lower legs and probably the rungs (who can resist propping there heels into the lower rungs of a chair??????) will show wear. With shellac, you can renew the finish in a matter of a couple hours, if not minutes. If you dye, you'll need to carefully document how much dye you add to how much shellac and get that ratio again. Otherwise you might wind up needing to refinish the entire chair.....rather than renew a few worn areas. You should still carefully document which color shellac you applied....can even write that on the bottom side of the seat apron.

Dale Critchlow
04-05-2005, 2:42 PM
Thanks guys for all of the great information. I need to do some careful studying of all of the messages and try Jeff Jewitt's forum as Kieth suggested.


Another Question: It seems to me that I can see the porous areas which will blotch when the dye applied. Will it improve matters if I sand those areas particulary well with a finer grit paper so they absorb less dye?


More Information: I am using hard maple and am leaning toward using water soluble dye. I have read that you should sand to about 150 grit for water soluble dyes to get better uniformity. So my plan is to both scrape and sand but finish with sanding. Scraping is to much more pleasant to do and faster than sanding.

By the way, there are eight chairs each with five curved pieces. Therefore I have lots and lots of scraps so I can experiment to my hearts content.

Dale Critchlow

Charles Hans
04-05-2005, 4:26 PM
Have you ever thought about Leather dyes? they will color wood very nicely and give vibrant color if that is what you are trying to acheive. Try Tandyleather.com fo their dye selection.

Charles Hans

Rob Millard
04-05-2005, 7:51 PM
I would be wary of adding dye to shellac, because of the difficulty in applying it without getting lap marks, especially on a piece as complex as a chair. I have had dark un-dyed shellac leave noticeable streaks, because I did a poor job of brushing it on. I have used tinted shellacs to color flat areas with great success, but I apply it very thin and build up the color slowly, something that might be difficult on a chair.

There are a few ways to overcome the splotching a common with maple. One is to apply a coat of thinned down liquid hide glue. This will control the absorption of the dye, resulting in a more even color. Another way is to brush on some distilled water, just prior to applying the dye. This is the same concept behind the conditioner sold for Minwax stains. As a side note, a woodworking acquaintance told me he uses the Minwax conditioner under water based dyes with excellent results. This seems unbelievable to me, because oil and water don’t mix, but he is an excellent woodworker, and I trust his word, although I have not tried it myself. The final option is to spray the dye on, almost dry, and not wipe it. This is almost certainly the way Jeff Jewitt will recommend, since this is where I heard it. It works beautifully, if you have control of your gun, something I’m not very good at. I use my spray gun much like a shotgun, set for a wide pattern, point, pull the trigger and I’m bound to hit something.

I’ve always sanded wood to 320 grit when using dyes. I’ve never been happy with a scraped only surface for any finish, especially water based ones, due to the raised grain.

Michael Pfau
04-05-2005, 8:09 PM
I have had good luck with Trans Tint. Put it on with a brush evenly. Let dry. The water based dye will raise the wood, sand lightly with 800 grit until all the hair is gone, this will take the dye off the top some and leave the dye in the pores. Then shellac as many coats as you want. I have had good results with this on hard maple, about 3 coats of shallac, and wipe on poly for 2 or 3 more coats.

Dave Macy
02-22-2017, 6:50 PM
Adding the dye to the shellac (or any other "clear" finish) results in a toner. For the most part, the dye will not be penetrating the wood anywhere close to what it would if applied directly to the wood, whether you are using a water soluble or an alcohol soluble dye. Maple is challenging to color, but dyes are the best, IMHO, for the job. I primarily use water-soluble dye for this since it can be hand-applied. Alcohol soluble dyes are best sprayed on as they flash off so fast it's very hard to avoid or get rid of overlaps.

One technique that can be very nice with maple is to apply a water based dye, allow it to dry and then sand it back so that the dye only remains in the more porous figure. This can be repeated as needed to further highlight the effect. Once that is done, shellac, alone or dyed as a toner is used to seal things and adjust the overall coloration of the wood before moving to the chosen top coat finish. Many of the "really awesome" examples of figured maple I've seen were finished this way. Adjusting the color of the dye(s) used varies the effect.

One thing to remember about using dyes: After you apply them, the color will be "not" what you are looking for in the immediate sense. They will be dull and lifeless until you move forward with the next finishing steps. For this reason, it is ESSENTIAL that you do your finishing regimen all the way through on scraps of the same material your project is made with to insure that the final effect is what you desire. Plan for this when you are acquiring materials! You must have enough scrap to do several iterations as you adjust your regimen before you move on to the real project.

Sorry for digging up an old thread Mr. Becker. But I have been trying to add transtint to a dye to use on rock maple and yeah, all the scrap I have tested on (by rubbing) looks horrible. So I want to try it as water based. Do I really just mix it with water? Do you seal it first with sealcoat to avoid the blotching? I'll then be finishing it with a topcoat of shellac (prob leave as 2# cut unless you advise otherwise). Either way I'll test but any info would be appreciated.

Brice Rogers
02-22-2017, 7:03 PM
When using transtint with water, I try to raise the grain first. Spritz it with water, let it dry and sand with 320, 400 or your favorite grit. Do it again and then apply transtint. Very little grain will be raised.

I tried using a sealer coat of shellac and did a subsequent application of transtint. It looked okay but I found that it didn't penetrate. When I rubbed on a friction finish (BLO, shellac and DNA) 90 percent of the dye came off.

George Bokros
02-22-2017, 7:09 PM
I finished a hard maple cabinet for my wife. I used TransTint dye mixed in water and applied by hand with blue shop towels and cotton cloths but I first applied Charles Neil Blotch Control and had no blotching what-so-ever. Finished with GF AmrSeal as top coat.

John TenEyck
02-22-2017, 7:14 PM
Dye doesn't penetrate wood very deeply, a couple of thou, at best. Using dye instead of toners because you think it won't chip off as easily is false logic. Ever sand through your sealer or first topcoat and right through your dye, too?

The only way I've found to get an even color on maple, hard or soft, is to spray the color on, whether it be dye in water or DNA, or a toner. Any other approach leads to blotching for me. Some folks call that figure. I'm not one of them. Figure is birdseye, curly, etc. Blotching is ugly. There are concoctions out there to help minimize blotching with hand applied color. I'm told they work. My solution was to spray.

John

Jim Becker
02-22-2017, 7:35 PM
I raise grain (sometimes) and knock off nibs, apply the dye, seal with de-waxed shellac and then finish with water borne top-coat. I don't personally worry about "blotching"...to me it's just the wood's figure. That's a personal subjective thing. :)

Wade Lippman
02-22-2017, 8:32 PM
I needed a quantity of 10/4 wood, and got a great buy on sycamore. It would probably have been beautiful natural, but I wanted it stained dark.
Blotched horribly. nothing worked, except tinted shellac. It is kinda like the transparent stain they sell for houses, but I was satisfied with it.

Jim Falsetti
02-22-2017, 8:48 PM
Dale - I have a quilted maple pencil post bed kit I bought from Barkley (think they are out of business now), and then finished myself. Their finishing instructions were spot on. I'll see if I can find them and send to you on a PM. Best, Jim

David Eisenhauer
02-22-2017, 9:21 PM
I have sprayed (I use HVLP equipment that does not create the hurricane of overspray, etc that my older type spray equipment did years ago) an amount of water-cut Transtint dye to hard maple over the years. I use water rather than alcohol because the alcohol dries so fast and is less forgiving of application errors. I have read that using alcohol does eliminate the grain raising step, but I don't mind the grain raising step. On Hard Maple, I have always only used a lighter Honey Amber type color to basically just even out-warm up the light colored maple as opposed to adding in a lot of color. Colors can be mixed. I quite often use "Amber" underneath the main color to create some "glow" (as in the difference between Golden Oak and Oak). My typical process: I sand to 220#, wipe down the surface with a damp (water) sponge to raise the grain, scuff (by hand) sand with 220# to knock down the raised grain and then spray the color on with a light, "dry" coat cover so I do not have to wipe the applied color down. It takes a little practice spray on some cardboard to get set up right before doing it. Note: I usually only spray the dye when I am worried about blotching and normally rag it on for stuff I am not worried about so that I keep the color out of my spray equipment. I usually sand exposed end grain to 320#-400#, but all else 220# only. I plan hard to avoid spraying vertical surfaces any way at all possible, including making for a more inefficient spray schedule, to avoid having to wipe but it dries so fast it is not really an issue FOR ME. After putting on the color, I then spray on one coat of dewaxed shellac, followed by three-four coats of a water based topcoat. All of this stuff dries quickly and I can put my three-four coats of topcoat on in a longish day if the weather is warm and dry. If I need more (darker or changed slightly) color, I add in some dye to the topcoats to create a toner. I have found that I tend to use a toner more when trying to make the color match on the hardwood face frame and cabinet doors to the color of the hardwood plywood carcase. I write down my final finish schedule on my project plans and can retrieve it when needed and have provided the finish schedule to clients to have for any repair work down the road. I use Target Coatings for my spray shellac and topcoats, but there are other brands that work fine for other folks. As stated above, you need to add on some shellac and topcoat to the dried dye to truly see what the final result will be after trying some color on scrap. Finishing is not a real mystery after reading some of Jeff Jewitt's and Bob Flexnor's books. In my opinion, some folks should try to go a little further beyond just smearing Watco or something similar on everything because an oil soak-in type finish is not very protective at all. In my case, I invested in some decent spray equipment, but it also can be done with brushes, rags, pads, etc.

Dave Macy
02-22-2017, 11:46 PM
Thanks everyone. Yeah, spray would be great but I don't have the money for a setup or the room, so it will be either rub on or brush (prefer rub). Thanks. I got two coats on with water/dye tonight so will see in the morning before school.

roger wiegand
02-23-2017, 8:28 AM
I have had much better success using transtint and other dyes in alcohol rather than water. No issues with the grain rising, faster dry times, and better uniformity in my hands. I flood the surface with the dye. let it sit for a minute, and then wipe up the excess. Very low tech route to a nice result.

Wes Ramsey
02-23-2017, 12:42 PM
My only experience with aniline dyes is on turnings, so I don't know how well my methods will work on larger panels. I've read that spraying is the ONLY way to get consistent color across all the various grain structures. I don't have a sprayer so I had to come up with a different method and I found that mixing the dye to a lighter shade (much lighter) than needed and flooding the surface does a good job of coloring evenly. Multiple applications may be necessary, but short of spraying this is the only way I've found to get the color even.

Dave Macy
02-26-2017, 12:04 AM
I've decided that I'm done working with maple. It's horrible and I haven't been happy with any finish I've tried. I've tried a ton of different tinted shellac mixtures with dye, and some dye mixed with water, I've tried Waterlox, I've used regular Minwax stains etc. They're all bad but maybe it's just me. Maple is just the devil. I spent so much time working on the table and now the finish is, well.... junk.

David Devers
10-09-2017, 3:05 PM
<p>
I know this thread is kinda old but wanted to throw in my 2 cents for anyone searching for this topic like I was.</p>
<p>
If you are trying to stain a blotchy wood, I&#39;ve found Daly&#39;s Benite wood conditioner to work very well. I&#39;ve used Benite on douglas fir and maple, and it always gives me a blotch-free stain or finish. Basically, you just lay down a wash coat of Benite with a brush. Let it dry for 24 hours. Then apply your stain or finish. Works great for me. I&#39;ve tried alot of other methods mentioned here and had mixed results. Always get great results with Benite and am surprised it&#39;s not more common.</p>

John TenEyck
10-09-2017, 9:08 PM
Dave, I've never heard of Benite. Does it work with WB dyes and stains or only OB? Thanks.


John