White steel, Blue steel, what's the difference?

[Dennis McDonaugh]

I see Japanese chisels touted because they use white or blue steel. What the heck does that mean? There never is an explaination of why white or blue steel would be desirable, or even what the chemical difference is between white and blue steel and high carbon steel. I've even seen copy saying Japanese chisels are made from old anchors. Why is that a good thing and why the devil are there so many anchors laying around Japan?

My personal experience with Japense chisels hasn't been good--poor edge retention and chipping. I assume its because they are hardened to RC65 which makes them more brittle than western chisels. I thought that was a result of the hardening process and not the content of the steel. Does anyone know the story behind the colored steel?

[Brent Smith]

Dennis,
As for the old anchor cast iron,I would imagine that just the age alone would make it desirable since it's done all the moving it's ever going to do.My understanding of blue and white steel is that white steel is a regular high carbon steel and that blue steel has tungsten and chromium added to give it a tougher edge.
I'd be interested to hear from anyone that knows more on the subject also.
As far as edge failure goes....what kind of chisels have you used? I have a set of Miyanaga blue steel chisels from Japan Woodworker and they are sweet.Never had a problem with edge failure or chipping.
Brent

[Tim Sproul]

white steel - comes wrapped in white paper.

blue steel - comes wrapped in blue paper.

I kid you not. Seriously. Chemically, the alloys are a bit different. In practice, few can tell the difference.

[Brent Smith]

Dennis,
http://www.woodworking-forum.com/woodworking/White_and_Blue_Japanese_Steel_936937.html (http://www.woodworking-forum.com/woodworking/White_and_Blue_Japanese_Steel_936937.html)
I found this on the UK forum.
Brent

[Tony Zaffuto]

Who knows what's hype and what isn't!

Last year I treated myself to a 5/8" dovetail chisel from The Japan Woodworker. I purchased one made from the better of blue and white steel (can't remember which!).

I do know that the chisel cost "about" $55.00 (I said it was a treat). I also know that I have never seen any of my other chisels (old Witherby's, Swan, Stanley 750's & Everlasting, old Sears etc.) take an edge like the new dovetail chisel. Further, and more importantly, it held the edge. Now, granted, given the cost, I wasn't swinging a 2 pound sledge on this chisel, and I did use it primarily for paring cuts.

But, subjectively, in the QS white oak I have been working with, the edge lasted at least as long as any other of my chisels.

Will I purchase a whole set of them? Emphatically NO! I don't own a matched set of any chisels. I buy for what I need at the time, or what I think I will need. Further, as I have never tried an L-N chisel yet, you can bet that's what my next need will be!

In closing, I got the motor block from an old Model A back of the garage and a chunk of I-beam cut to look like an anvil. Anyone care to create some hype and some chisels?????

[Dennis McDonaugh]

Dennis,
http://www.woodworking-forum.com/woodworking/White_and_Blue_Japanese_Steel_936937.html (http://www.woodworking-forum.com/woodworking/White_and_Blue_Japanese_Steel_936937.html)
I found this on the UK forum.
Brent

Thanks Brent. The steel composition doesn't look much different from western chisels--high carbon steel has between .8 and 1.5 percent carbon. Cheaper chisels having less and better chisels having more. It seems to me the big difference is hardening, R 60 vs R 65 or so. I guess they can be harder because the softer steel behind the cutting edge dampens the vibration and keeps the whole thing together.

I think my technique is the problem with the edges. I am not careful enough when I pare and end up prying with the edges and they can't take it.

[Dennis McDonaugh]

Who knows what's hype and what isn't!

Last year I treated myself to a 5/8" dovetail chisel from The Japan Woodworker. I purchased one made from the better of blue and white steel (can't remember which!).

I do know that the chisel cost "about" $55.00 (I said it was a treat). I also know that I have never seen any of my other chisels (old Witherby's, Swan, Stanley 750's & Everlasting, old Sears etc.) take an edge like the new dovetail chisel. Further, and more importantly, it held the edge. Now, granted, given the cost, I wasn't swinging a 2 pound sledge on this chisel, and I did use it primarily for paring cuts.

But, subjectively, in the QS white oak I have been working with, the edge lasted at least as long as any other of my chisels.

Will I purchase a whole set of them? Emphatically NO! I don't own a matched set of any chisels. I buy for what I need at the time, or what I think I will need. Further, as I have never tried an L-N chisel yet, you can bet that's what my next need will be!

In closing, I got the motor block from an old Model A back of the garage and a chunk of I-beam cut to look like an anvil. Anyone care to create some hype and some chisels?????

Tony, I ordered a couple LN chisels--one backordered. The other arrived last night and all I got to do was flatten the back and hone the edge. Took all of 5 minutes or so to get a mirror finish on a 6000 grit water stone. I can't wait to see how it works paring dovetails.

[Pam Niedermayer]

Yes, they're called white and blue because of the paper labels; but they are somewhat different steels. I don't know all the ins and outs not being a metal worker; and I admit to not shopping at Japan Woodworker, therefore to not paying much attention at all to which type of metal is in there. However, there's a fairly good discussion of this on the Hiraide forum in the Toolsmithing topic, Blue vs White Steel - merits of both, at http://www.ibiblio.org/japanwood/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=7&sid=2d91e5c90776c3f969e3b38f222d7560

As to chipped edges, I'm fairly convinced at this point it's a result of using the edge incorrectly. For example, don't use a bench chisel to chop mortises, get a mortising chisel. Now in some cases something approaching work hardening occurs, something like breaking in a new car used to be. So be gentle for the first couple of uses/sharpening cycles, then wail away.

Pam

[Dennis McDonaugh]

Thanks for the link Pam.

[Don Naples]

Dennis:
Here is a link that will answer your question about the differences between these two types of steel.
http://www.hidatool.com/woodpage/wb.html
A general guideline to use for knowing which one you are looking at is if the hoop is smooth it is White Steel and if it has original peening marks it is Blue Steel.
Don

[Alan DuBoff]

white steel - comes wrapped in white paper.

blue steel - comes wrapped in blue paper.

I kid you not. Seriously. Chemically, the alloys are a bit different. In practice, few can tell the difference.Mine were wrapped in plastic, if I recall correctly.

What type of steel would that make them?:confused:

[Michael Perata]

If you hold a white steel chisel against the grinding wheel too long it will become blue steel. ;)

[Harry Goodwin]

Last few weeks bought seven new Japanese white steel chisels. My own poor interpretation was dissappointment that I had to work over the sides of three of them because they were not ground at all. A diamond hone worked great. Then a small scratch on one, not really a nick, and that steel was hard and didn't disappear easily. after a hard arkansas and a buffing wheel they are sharp and fine. My Crown paring chissels are just as sharp in my opinion. Harry

[Dave Burnard]

Dennis:
A general guideline to use for knowing which one you are looking at is if the hoop is smooth it is White Steel and if it has original peening marks it is Blue Steel.
Don

Hey Don, there's no causative correlation between the hoops and the steel type - it's just the preference of the maker or middleman who puts the handles on the chisel. It is true that cheaper chisels use less expensive handles and hoops and lesser grades of white steel - but there are very expensive white steel chisels with fancy handles out there.

[Dave Burnard]

Thanks Brent. The steel composition doesn't look much different from western chisels--high carbon steel has between .8 and 1.5 percent carbon. Cheaper chisels having less and better chisels having more. It seems to me the big difference is hardening, R 60 vs R 65 or so. I guess they can be harder because the softer steel behind the cutting edge dampens the vibration and keeps the whole thing together.

The japanese steels are higher in carbon content than their modern western counterparts, plus laminated blades allow you to keep the edge really hard, without worrying about breaking the body of the chisel. It also makes them easier to sharpen since most of the bevel in contact with the stone is just iron. And since the back is hollow, not much steel contacts the stone there either.


I think my technique is the problem with the edges. I am not careful enough when I pare and end up prying with the edges and they can't take it.

That is the problem. But it's not your fault - that's just the way we westerners are taught to use chisels - western chisels are designed to work that way. It's possible you have a bad chisel or two, there are more and more knockoffs out there now - sheesh even grizzly is selling "japanese" chisels now. If you have a good name brand, try modifying your technique.

I was just watching an old video of a japanese plane block maker. He was making plane blocks out of really well aged macassar ebony. Danged hard stuff. He used a 5 lb steel hammer and a short handled atsu-sized (firmer?) chisel about 30mm wide. He chopped out the whole big triangular hole for the blade less than a 1 minute. Good thing no one told him you can't use japanese chisels on hardwoods! ;) And the usual wood for plane blocks is Japanese Red or White Oak which are "live oaks" - also danged hard.

Anyway the technique in 30 words or less is: to cut the chips well enough so that they don't need prying, and then just flick the waste out of the hole. If you can learn to cut the chips cleanly and flick them away your troubles should be over. If you can feast your eyes on a video of a japanese woodworker chopping a mortice you'll see the difference.

[Dave Burnard]

I've even seen copy saying Japanese chisels are made from old anchors. Why is that a good thing and why the devil are there so many anchors laying around Japan?


Not all chisels and planes are made with old anchor chain iron, but many of the more expensive ones are. I've seen the piles of anchor chain and the cut up anchors to prove it (I have a small pile myself). There are also piles of old riveted bridge girders, boiler tanks, etc. The point is that it's wrought iron - pre Bessemer - and it forges more easily, has a fibrous nature which allows it to bend rather than fatigue crack, resists rust, is soft on sharpening stones, and it etches nicely to reveal wood grain or mokume patterns. The stuff is getting harder and harder to come by in Japan so the toolmakers really have to scrounge for it, but there is a market for it there so people do salvage it. Here it all just get's hauled to the scrappers yard where it gets melted together with old cars and whatever to make new stuff.

[greg scala]

My understanding is that blue and white are the colors of the paper that the steel is wrapped in, as delivered to the chisel maker.

[Frank Fusco]

Tony said (I'm sure rhetorically)...."Who knows what's hype and what isn't! "
I think he nailed it.
There seems to be an irrational love affair with Japanese made tools the past several years. They may be fine. I really don't know. But Europeans have been making excellent tools for centuries and those skills were brought here.
Some may like the style of Japanese saws (thin, flimsy, pull cut), I say, if that's your 'thang' fine. But are they "better"? Very unlikely. The difference is in the advertising copy IMHO.

[Frank Desaulniers]

I think the difference is in what you prefer. No ads have told me that I prefer Japanese saws in general...they are smaller for equal sawing power (easier to store and carry around), take less effort to use, and their ergonomics make them easier to use in a variety of sawing positions (try using a Western saw over your head, or to saw at eye level). Sharpening is not a problem with disposable blades, which are generally of very high quality and inexpensive. I see many advantages. They have become quite popular since the seventies and are still increasing in popularity (who would have thought I can buy one at my local hardware store these days). I don't think their popularity was due to advertising at all (I've never seen many ads at all for Jap saws, certainly hardly any ten years ago). Japanese planes, on the other hand, are a different story (less advantages IMO, and they haven't enjoyed the same success for simlar (though opposite) reasons (advantages vs. disadvantages) IMO, not because of lack of advertising.
As for steel and Japanese chisels, I think Japanese steel is superior to Western steel in several respects (noteably the ability to hold an edge). Once again, I think J chisels have become popular for very good reasons, thoug not as popular as the J saws ($$$ and ease of use probably being a big factor here), not because of advertising.

[Dennis Peacock]

Mine were wrapped in plastic, if I recall correctly.

What type of steel would that make them?:confused:

Alan,

That would be the more expensive Clear Steel. I have an entire set of those. The only problem I've had with them? All you can ever see is the handle of the chisel. :p :D

[Eddie Darby]

Fine hand paring work, and the need for a really sharp edge....White Paper Steel chisels.

"Unalloyed carbon steel, for making laminated blades. Fine martensitic structure. Excellent sharpenability, comparable to sword steel.
C = 1.1 - 1.2%, Si = 0.1 - 0.2%, P < 0.025%, S < 0.004% "
===============================================
Harder wood and more pounding ..... Blue Paper Steel chisels.

"Slightly alloyed carbon steel, for making laminated blades. Martensitic structure with a somewhat coarser grain. The embedded carbides make it somewhat tougher and more resistant to wear.
C = 1.1 - 1.2%, Si = 0.1 - 0.2%, Mn = 0.2 - 0.3%, Cr = 0.2 - 0.5%, W = 1.0 - 1.5%, P < 0.025%, S < 0.004%."
==============================================

Really tough pounding ....HSS Japanese chisels.

"HSS Chisels (Koyama Nomi)
No one has the luxury of always working with perfect wood. Knots, glue joints and other objects embedded in a piece of wood can ruin a freshly sharpened blade and frustrate even an experienced woodworker. These chisels made of Hitachi HSS make such problems a thing of the past. Unlike normal HSS, whose coarse structure limits its potential sharpness, this innovative material has an extremely fine carbide structure which allows it to take and hold a very sharp edge. Very hard (approx. 66 RC) and tough, these chisels are able to withstand the rough handling which is often unavoidable when working on site. They may also be sharpened with a dry grinding machine without compromising the hardness of the steel. The chisels come assembled, sharpened and ready to use."

All quotes are from this German tool company that has some nice info on these steels, as well as other steels, and also sells the steel in stock blanks for those "Do It Yourselfers" .

http://www.dick.biz/

[Alan DuBoff]

Alan,

That would be the more expensive Clear Steel. I have an entire set of those. The only problem I've had with them? All you can ever see is the handle of the chisel. :p :DSomehow I missed this yesterday, but a good way to start a Monday...with a nice smile...:)

You gotta really watch the edge closely when you sharpen the clear steel edges, really hard to tell when you have a good sharp edge...:D

[Dennis Peacock]

Somehow I missed this yesterday, but a good way to start a Monday...with a nice smile...:)

You gotta really watch the edge closely when you sharpen the clear steel edges, really hard to tell when you have a good sharp edge...:D

ROFL!!!!!! Glad you pointed that out. I'm working on finding all mine so I can sharpen them.....I've found 3 handles so far. Thanks for a good sense of humor Alan. :D