CMT Dado set models & quality?

[ian maybury]

I want to buy a good quality dado set to run on my Hammer K3 panel saw. Which brings the usual options into play - buy the 7in dia Felder slotting set which is very expensive, or go for a 6in dia US pattern stacked set which if a good one may even offer some advantages. (the K3 does not have the clearance to run an 8in dado).

The latter have not been widely used over here (Ireland), but as luck would have it a local re-seller has started handling CMT (whose router cutters I've had good luck with), and has offered me a 6in dado set. It's not necessarily the make I would have gone for given a free choice (the Infinity, Freud and Forrest top end sets get excellent reviews, and Rod has spoken highly of FS Tool) - but the cost with shipping and duty of importing from the US is too high to make sense.

Trouble is the information I'm getting from my guy here doesn't seem to fit with the story coming out when I dig through reviews in the mags.

There seem to be three levels of quality of dado set sold in the US - economy, middle and precision.

Wood magazine did a credible sounding review of 6in sets in 2009 and found that while decent the middle (?) CMT set 230.520.06 http://www.cmtutensili.com/show_items.asp?pars=SB~230.5~2 (http://www.cmtutensili.com/show_items.asp?pars=SB%7E230.5%7E2) wasn't quite as clean cutting and long lasting as the (precision?) CMT set 230.020.06 http://www.cmtutensili.com/show_items.asp?pars=SB~230~2 (http://www.cmtutensili.com/show_items.asp?pars=SB%7E230%7E2) that costs $195.

The latter pretty much matched the performance of the Freud SD 206 and Forrest Dado King.

Yet CMT (probably in the UK) are telling my guy that the 230.020.06 has long since been discontinued, and that the 230.520.06 is their top quality model. Which doesn't gel with the above. When I search the web there's lots of US suppliers offering the above 230.020.06.

It's possible that there is just an overlap between the two models since they seem identical in terms of numbers of teeth, grinding angles and so on, but the 230.020.06 has their orange PTFE coating and could I'm figuring use a higher grade of carbide and be ground more precisely.

Does anybody know what the story is regarding the US product offering, or have experience of either set? A complicating factor may be the availability of the 30mm bore and braking pin holes needed by the Hammer saw.

Thanks

ian

[ian maybury]

Hi guys. Just bumping this in the hope that somebody with experience of the CMT dado sets will come along at the right time.

ian

[Rod Sheridan]

Can't help with the CMT Ian, I'm running a 6 inch FS tools set on my B3.............Fantastic product.................Rod.

[ian maybury]

I'd buy the FS or one of the other top rated ones like a shot Rod. Trouble is that if I buy in the US it'll get very expensive by the time duty and shipping pile up to $100 more on top. The CMT while less well known is Euro made, tested well in the above review and locally available. I'll bite the bullet on a US source if necessary, but would rather not...

ian

[David Kumm]

Ian, I don't know what models CMT makes now their best dado was pretty much the same as the best Freud at one time. I have both from about 7-10 years ago and can't tell them apart. I think CMT also made the dado for Jesada here in the US back in those days and it was a good set as well. Dave

[Larry Edgerton]

I am not impressed at all with CMT quality, in fact I would say the opposite. They are in no way compareable to FS Tool. A dado set is a long term investment, most will never wear out a good set. I have a Forrest set that is over twenty years old and a FS Tool for a different saw. Both are awesome.

I had a problem where a defective CMT destroyed itself on the first cut, and destroyed a job I had over a 100 hours in, and CMT's response was basically "Oh well, stuff happens"

Go with the FS Tool or equal for just a bit more.

Larry

[scott spencer]

CMT has been a bit of a mixed bag for me...mostly good, but not all. Do you ever seen any Leitz or Amana blades where you are? Love my Dadonator, but like the other high end sets from here, it'd be really expensive to ship.

[Rod Sheridan]

Hi Ian, FS Tools is Canadian, do you have same duty issues with Canada?

Regards, Rod.

[ian maybury]

Thanks guys. The feedback on older CMT product seems as David says to be good, my caution is that it's possible that they have stripped some quality out of of their top end dado set to reduce cost, or that over here at least they are not selling their top quality item. I've tried to get clarification via their US and UK operations, but in the best Italian tradition they don't seem to be that bothered about explaining themselves.

We don't really get dado sets here Scott, although there's signs they are creeping back in after being put down for a while by the UK H&S Gods.

Think I'll try FS Tool Rod, your thought about Canada is possibly true in that it probably ups the odds of it sneaking in duty free. Technically it's probably subject to the same duty.

Can you say Rod exactly what model I'm looking for to get their best quality (as Larry and David suggest it's the kind of thing to buy for keeps), and what the story is on boring for the Hammer/Felder fitting? The website lists standard, safety and fine models - although they may not all be available in 6in.

I'm a little cautious about the possibility that a maker might try to machine the Felder bore after grinding the teeth, as realistically it's the grinding that should centre everything up properly. FS presumably do it this way around. i.e. the Felder fitting isn't so to speak an afterthought.

Thanks

ian

[David Kumm]

Hey Ian, you are correct that generally you want the boring done before the sharpening. Forrest resharpens if you send a set in for reboring. The down side isn't fatal though as what will happen is some chippers will leave a slightly deeper trench which is pretty hard to see after assembly. I have one set that I short cut and it leaves a slightly uneven bottom but not enough to cause me to send the set in for sharpening. I have several sets I bought used since they are low usage. Felder bored sets come up on ebay - although 6" is more rare and CL fairly often if you can deal with the shipping. Dave

[Rod Sheridan]

53DL06

http://www.fstoolcorp.com/Templates/ecms.aspx/$FSTool/8f96d715-c3fa-4c15-a1ee-a5dc6fa23249/E44_E45.pdf

Would you like some photographs of it Ian?

Regards, Rod.

[ian maybury]

Thanks Rod. That was the sheet I got to, but I couldn't decide which type you had. A part number or similar would be useful - don't go to the trouble of a photo unless you have it to hand. I'm going to phone FS and see what they have to say anyway.

ian

PS I've since spoken to FS in Toronto. It seems the only model they offer in 6in is the 5/8 bore 53DL06 which they bore and drill to suit the Felder arbour. It has 24T outer blades which seems decent for a 6in cutter. There's nothing shown about the chippers, so I've no idea how many cutters they have.

I'm guessing that's the one you have Rod?

They actually offer a very nice line of tooling, although the catalogue shows inch bore sizes so metric may or may not be available.

The other thought that comes to mind is that there's no mention of shims in the data sheet, they talk about adjustment in 1/16in increments. Guess i'm wondering if they supply shims but don't mention them, or do I have to buy a set separately from somebody like Lee Valley? If this is so is the 30mm bore an issue? Whatever the system, does it allow fine adjustment of the cut width to match e.g. unpredictable metric or imperial ply sheet thicknesses?

Please pardon all the questions....

FS it turns out have a UK distributor whom I can contact tomorrow. They seem unlikely to have stock since dado sets are little used in the UK, but they might be able to order from Canada and supply. If so I can recover the tax, so that sounds promising.

[Rick Fisher]

I have an FS tool Dado as well.. Its fantastic..

I would compare CMT to Freud.. Not better, not really worse.. I have some of their router bits .. they are " okay " .. I have their mortising chisels.. They are a bit less than okay..

If I was going to buy a lifer dado blade, there are so many choices.. Tenryu will be very good.. FS tool was mentioned.. Forrest.. The CMT and Freud will be cheaper. Better than some, not as nice as others.

What about Lietz .. Must be pretty available in GB ?

[Jaromir Svoboda]

I do have CMT dado set and I like it.No tear out ,eaven without zero clearance insert and nice flat buttoms.

[ian maybury]

Thanks J.

We get Leitz blades Rick, but i've never seen a dado set offered. Probably because the US style stacked sets are not typically sold over here for the H&S related reason I mentioned above. There's a few possibilities to buy one, but they tend to be either the low spec variety from a discount house, or a woodworking supplier importing from the US and hoping to sell a few at the US retail plus a huge mark up. (more than what it would cost to import directly) I did a lot of searching over the past year, and this was all that came up.

There's even a perception that they are not permitted, although that doesn't seem to be quite true. The objection by the H&S people in the UK to them seems to relate to the fact that they require removal of the top guard and riving knife. Whatever the reason most saws are sold with an arbour that's too short to fit a dado - that may be by regulation, but it could also be the result of a shared liability avoidance strategy/agreement on the part of the manufacturers. They sell stuff like short rip fences that can't be extended past the saw blade too, especially on consumer grade equipment.

Quite why the rather more expensive carbide insert type slotting cutters (which seem to have similar requirements in use, and to create similar risks - albeit that they are more likely to be bought by professional users) are sold and presumably deemed OK is a little beyond me.

I've just spoken to FS's UK distributor East Midland Saw and Tool, but no answer yet as they needed to raise the right guy. I'm guessing (they haven't said anything like this) that they probably for the above reason don't sell many - or might not even not be prepared to sell them at all. It'll be Monday until I get some feedback.

ian

[ian maybury]

Just bumping this in case somebody with demanding experience of the current model 230.520.06 CMT 6in/150mm dado set is looking in - especially in respect of clean cuts in ply. It seems so far as I can establish (but this could be wrong) that they no longer do the all orange PTFE coated version of a few years ago.

If you have this model can you say if it has 20 or 24T blades and 2 or 4T chippers please?

It's turned out that getting supply of the FS Tool unit in Ireland is problematical, and the CMT is still available locally.

THanks

ian