Would you consider this a serious blemish?

[Doug Richardson]

Greetings all!

I recently purchased a new cabinet saw. While the packaging was flawless, and the assembly was uneventful, I immediately noticed the following blemish in the right miter guide:


234184234185


I would appear to be defect in the casting that was exposed in the milling process. While shopping for saws, I did check the fit of the miters in their guides, but don't particularly recall examining the finish or the mill work of the guides. Would you consider this a serious defect, or just a "character trait" of the table. Have any of you seen this before? :confused: Opinions? Thank's in advance.....

[Ray Newman]

I would call the manufaturer/importer/dealer and ask for a new top or a new saw.

You do not know how deep this "blemish" extends further down into the metal, or if it will eventually start to crack as a result of the vibrations from running the saw.

[Todd Burch]

Depending on the quality of saw you purchased, this one might be one of the better ones.

Everything is relative.

[Bruce Page]

Doug, it wouldn’t motivate me enough to go through the hassle of replacing it. It will have no effect on functionality.

[Carl Beckett]

Everybody feels differently about these things.

Given my (from a relative standpoint) limited understanding of cast iron, and casting processes in general - I would not consider this a 'serious' defect. (and yes I understand stress/crack propagation, residual stress, fatigue, have designed investment castings in SST, etc etc.... but am not an expert on low cost offshore cast iron casting methods)

$.02

[Doug Richardson]

To give you a general idea without revealing the maunfacturer (for the purpose of relativity) ;-) , The saw retails (including delivery) for more than $2000, and is not manufactured in mainland China.....

[Paul McGaha]

Welcome to Sawmill Creek Doug,

It dosent seem serious to me. But I dont know. I suppose if I were you I would send the pictures to the manufacturer and ask for their thoughts on it, with the main question is it going to get any worse? And if it might, I would want a new saw.

Sorry your 1st post on the creek pertained to a problem on a new tool.

Edit-The more I think about it, The manufacturer may not have any idea if it's going to get any worse. Maybe you could get the manufacturer to agree to replace the saw if it got any worse. That way Doug wont be out the inconvienence of the replacement of the saw.

PHM

[John Cooper2]

For that kind of $$ I would not be a happy camper.

[Sid Matheny]

I can't tell a lot from the picture but it looks like sand casting holes and I would worry about how many others are unseen in the casting and how far down they go. For that price I would ask for a replacement!

Sid

[Erik Loza]

Seen a lot worse. Doubtful that would affect the structural integrity of the table but you did pay for a new machine. If it were me, I would see if the vendor would pro-rate me some type of discount or possibly comp me some tooling for this. Machine will probably operate just fine and is not worth returning if that is the only issue, IMHO. Best of luck with it.

Erik Loza
Minimax USA

[Paul M Miller]

It appears to be what is known as a "shrink" defect. It is cause when the outer surfaces of the casting cool and solidify while the inside is still molten. As liquid iron cools it shrinks in size, and since the outside surface is already hard and can not move, a void is created. It is considered a major flaw in critical parts such as truck axles (which are x-rayed before leaving the foundry), but I doubt it will ever cause a problem in a tablesaw top.


Paul

[Lee Schierer]

It appears to be what is known as a "shrink" defect. It is cause when the outer surfaces of the casting cool and solidify while the inside is still molten. As liquid iron cools it shrinks in size, and since the outside surface is already hard and can not move, a void is created. It is considered a major flaw in critical parts such as truck axles (which are x-rayed before leaving the foundry), but I doubt it will ever cause a problem in a tablesaw top.


Paul

I concur with the shrink porosity analysis. There is probably a significantly thicker area under the table right at that spot that was still molten when the outside cooled too fast. Most likely it will not cause a problem. You can easily fill it with some epoxy to keep out sawdust. I would recommend speaking with the manufacturer if it bothers you, but it does not appear to be large ehnough to be structurally significant.

[Jeff Duncan]

I agree that this is a personal decision and you'll have to be happy with it especially as it's a new purchase. I can tell you I have an industrial shaper with similar, well actually worse, casting imperfections in the top, (not the bottom of the miter slot). As mentioned they do not affect performance in any way.....but I bought mine used so I wasn't nearly as concerned with appearance. I will say I believe there's a LOT more concern with appearances of machines now than there may have been in the past. I'm sure I could find similar or worse defects in just about any of my machines. It's just these days guys seem to expect something close to perfection, and are more concerned with these types of things.

So in short I guess I'd call it a manufacturing defect....whether or not it's worth the hassle of replacing.....totally your call;)

good luck,
JeffD

[Don Jarvie]

Call and see if you can get a new top. The defect isn't going to hurt the performace of the saw, but you expect better when paying for top of the line.

Keep in mind if you want a new saw you have to pack up the old one and arrange to have it shipped back.

[Richard Hutchings]

I would stop thinking about it and start enjoying that perfectly operational machine. It does work perfectly right? I don't think it could ever be worth the hassle of returning it. YMMV
Thats just me.

[Howard Acheson]

I can't see anyway it would affect the performance of the saw. The miter gauge does not touch the bottom of the channel. If you feel some roughness with your finger, merely sand the spot with 220 grit sandpaper or emery paper.

[Mike Cutler]

If it was a more inexpensive saw, I'd just live with it. I've lived with more than a few defects due to price point.
> $2K is enough that you shouldn't have to live with it. You'll always look at the defect with regret.
I'd return it, or ask them to replace the saw top.

[Todd Burch]

For some perspective - when I bought my Powermatic PM66 back in Dec. '97, the local company I bought it from, assembled it for me, and then delivered it. Upon start-up (after they left), I noticed a slight wobble to the blade. I measured and called them. I asked what was allowable runout, and they said .030". Mine was .035". I asked them to come get it and bring me another. Since it was near year-end inventory time, they said they would not be ordering another for a month, so I had them just come get it. I then ordered off the 'net, and the next one was free of any measurable wobble.

I knew I would be using this saw for the rest of my woodworking days, (and, God willing, I have plenty of those left), and did not want to have to deal with the thought of runout every stinking time I turned the saw on.

So, mine was functional, and yours may just be cosmetic. What's the underside of the top look like? Is it all pocked too?

[George Gyulatyan]

If I was buying used, if it was disclosed by the seller and there were pictures and the defect was considered in the pricing, I might be wiling to live with it. On a brand new saw, especially >$2000 saw a certain level of QC is expected and I'd call the manufacturer, ask for a replacement table, or a discount off the purchase price, with the stipulation, in writing that if things got worse within a year, you'd return the entire saw for a replacement or full refund.

[Bruce Page]

Todd, you meant .003/.0035 right? .030/.035 would be extreme!

[Todd Burch]

Oh, yeah!! Thank Bruce.

[John Shuk]

I would stop thinking about it and start enjoying that perfectly operational machine. It does work perfectly right? I don't think it could ever be worth the hassle of returning it. YMMV
Thats just me.

I agree completely.

[John McClanahan]

If I bought a $2K+ saw, I would be contacting the company asking what else I might find if I keep looking. On the other hand, if I bought a used saw with this defect, I would fill the spot with epoxy and start using the saw.

John

[jim gossage]

Tuff call. Depending on the saw, replacing the top and getting ur alignments right could take 3-4 hours or more. If i asked for a new top, i would want the mfr to do the work. Otherwise, i would keep the saw but get some assurance In writing.

[Brad Patch]

Greetings all!

I recently purchased a new cabinet saw. While the packaging was flawless, and the assembly was uneventful, I immediately noticed the following blemish in the right miter guide:


234184234185


I would appear to be defect in the casting that was exposed in the milling process. While shopping for saws, I did check the fit of the miters in their guides, but don't particularly recall examining the finish or the mill work of the guides. Would you consider this a serious defect, or just a "character trait" of the table. Have any of you seen this before? :confused: Opinions? Thank's in advance.....

I'm in the use it and enjoy camp. My Delta Unisaw has two similar areas and the saw has worked flawlessly for 60 years.

[glenn bradley]

At $2k your above my "live with it" threshold. I share the concern that if this is present, what isn't showing? After a few years of use, even a perfect example will have battle scars but, this gives me structural concerns. If the saw had been around $1000, I would probably JB Weld it and move on. For $2k, swapping tops is not that big of a deal. I remove the top during an alignment anyway.

[Pat Barry]

If that's the only issue and the saw works like you expect it to then I would say report it to the company to get it noted on the record. I wouldn't make a demand for replacement, I would ask their service dept or experts what they think. Maybe they will offer to replace it because it fails their criteria, maybe they will say this is acceptable in the miter slot bottom which serves no function anyway.

[John Coloccia]

I'm usually pretty relaxed about cosmetic boo boos on new items, unless it's really bad. In this case, it makes me think that something went wrong with the casting process and that does cause me to wonder about what else is lurking. I'm with Pat. Call them up and see what they say. They may just replace it, or not. I wouldn't loose any sleep over it until/if they put the ball back in your court.

[johnny means]

I would fill it with something colorful and enjoy my unique machine:). If it bothers you, it's a defect and needs to be treated as such. If not, post a gloat:)

[Gary Herrmann]

Take a pic and send it to them. See what they suggest. That way it's on record. Then decide what you want to do.

[Pete Moe]

If it were me, I would contact the manufacturer to give them feedback on their product, whether I felt like pressing for a replacement or other compensation or not. I would document the exchange, in case there was a problem in the future. They may not care about such a flaw, but they might, and they should know - they may need want to refer it back to their supplier as a quality assurance matter.

On a $2000 investment, I would say ship me a new top...and use the old top as an extension. Or a coffee table.

[Michael Mayo]

Brand new product >$2000 means it is under warranty. That defect is a manufacturing defect and should be covered totally by the warranty. As such the company should fix it however they decide. I would at the very least expect a replacement top sent to me for that kind of money. Definitely call the company asap and find out what they intend on doing about this obvious manufacturing defect.

[David Kumm]

If the runout is low, the top flat, the miter slot and gauge fit tightly, I would contact just for the record but keep the saw. Unfortunately 2K machines still can have major flaws and you might trade for a prettier saw with a problem that really aggravates you down the road. Dave

[Ted Pitera]

I'm serious when I ask this, so don't laugh: What's your wife think?

It wouldn't matter what my opinion was on something like this, if I put out over $2,000 and the machine came with a visible flaw she would have her say. And it wouldn't be let it slide.

Enjoy your saw. Good luck, whatever you do.

[Phil Thien]

I'm a bit surprised that made it past QC.

I'd ask for a new top.

[Jerome Stanek]

I'm a bit surprised that made it past QC.

I'd ask for a new top.

I agree That one should be a discounted machine.

[Myk Rian]

That is minor porosity. Fill it with JB weld and be done with it.
Otherwise, it's a lot of bother for a small blemish.

[Matt McColley]

What you are seeing is minor pitting in the casting.

Years ago, I worked in a factory that made aftermarket oil pumps with cast iron bodies and we refered to this type of defect as "foundry" (i.e. it was a casting defect and would be set aside to be returned to the foundry for credit). When I worked the station at the end of the machinery processes, I would dunk the machined castings in a solvent to clean all of the cutting fluid and chips off, and then blow them clean and dry in a spray booth, checking for defects in the machining or the casting at the same time. Pump bodies with pitting were set aside for he forman to make the final call on. We ran ~ 900 pumps down the line in and 8 hour shift and I might pull out a half dozen for "foundry" of which the forman would disallow ~2 and return the rest of them to the line. (OBTW, my employer was in the US and had the reputation of supplying "better than factory" after market pumps)

Casting is not a perfect process and what's important is that the integrity of the part is not compormised. What I'm seeing in your photo looks very minor to me. But you may want to inspect the bottom side to make sure there is no heavy pitting visable there.

I'd be very curious to see if the mfg. would do anything for you or not. My guess is not. But please follow up if you decide to pursue it with them and let the forum know how it goes.

If it were my saw and the things that mattered (flat table, properly sized miter slots, etc...) were correct, I wouldn't send it back for that. You may do so, only to recieve a cosmetically unblemished part, that is wrong in some other way that really matters.

Keep in mind that +/- 0.000000 does not exist on planet earth, and every item ever made by human hands has a tolerance associated with it. If you want tighter tolerances, things can get really expensive very quickly. As a licensed engineer that worked for a decade in one of the ultimate "spare no expense" industries (nuclear power) I've seen the best that money can buy..... and even those parts were often not cosmetically perfect.... nor did they need to be.

IMO, the reason 90% of the woodworking machines on the market (even some top German brands ) are made in Asia, or from parts that were made in Asia, is largely because the average Joe Woodworker customer (including myself) is not willing to pay for the tighter tolerances that would require them to be produced in the west.

[Van Huskey]

What it appears to be is simply cosmetic, given where it is at I wouldn't worry about it BUT I would document an email with pictures to the company in case there are proplems down the line, though I doubt it.

I think Dave hit the nail on the head, if everything else on the saw is very good you risk trading a small probably negligable flaw for a saw with a flaw that actually effects performance...

[David Hostetler]

IF that is the only casting flaw, just a cosmetic issue nothing to see here, move along...

However I would be concerned about it. And considering the amount of money paid for the machine, I would be raising a stink with the manufacturer. That has the potential of leading to much more serious problems...

[Jerome Hanby]

In x number of years, the latest whiz bang saw company is going to come out with the model of your dreams and you'll be looking to sell this one and buy the new one. I'm betting from the way that you post that you'll feel compelled to point out the "flaw" to any prospective buyer, and they will be compelled to use that as an excuse to reduce their offer. Make the company provide you with the saw for which you paid them all that money. Personally, it would irk me every time I saw that "defect" on a product I bought new (for a new price). had i bought the same thing second hand for a good price, it wouldn't bother me at all...

[David Kumm]

this is not addressed to the OP but to the rest of us. Barring a structural flaw we can't lose sight of which is the lipstick and which is the pig here. We are critical of pits in the table- which is fair- but don't ask about the quality of the CI itself. You used to be able to find out the Meehanite ratings but no longer. We haven't a clue what quality of bearings are specd, how well the motor is made, the type or thickness of steel in the base, how it is welded, etc, etc. I like high quality a lot but we can't forget that the more we demand the cosmetics look good, the lower the quality of the parts we can't see. the law of unintended consequences force manufacturers to put money on the outside rather than where it counts. I'm looking at my Porter now- they slopped paint on it evidently in the dark but used ABEC 5 bearings because the buyers knew what was more important. In fairness, they are no longer in business so maybe the paint was important. Dave

[Gene Waara]

Send it back. It would bug me everytime I looked at it. Some have observed it is cosmetic. Technically true, but having bought OEM automotive castings, without ultrasonic testing there is no way to see how long and deep the porosity goes. A few years of sliding your miter gage can open up the defect even more and then it will be too late for recovery. For $2000 the top should be near perfect and this one isn't.

[John Piwaron]

That kind of defect is called porosity. Where I work that's a reject. I'd return the saw or expect a brand new perfect replacement part.

[jim gossage]

If the runout is low, the top flat, the miter slot and gauge fit tightly, I would contact just for the record but keep the saw. Unfortunately 2K machines still can have major flaws and you might trade for a prettier saw with a problem that really aggravates you down the road. Dave

I agree with David here - if the stuff that matters in terms of performance is pretty good, keep it. I complained about an out of flat sawtop several years ago. The process involved multiple phone calls, 2 service visits, and several hours for the manufacturer to replace the top. In the end, the top was no flatter and I had to spend another 3 hours to get everything aligned after the saw guy left. My point here is that you might go through a lot of trouble to get the saw or top replaced, and then have a lesser saw (new top is now 0.01" out of flat instead of your original 0.001, but still in specs) in terms of performance. I still feel I made the right call in my case because it was a performance issue; unfortunately, my original saw was not expensive or high quality so I decided I just needed a better saw instead of wasting time on a third top. I now have a SawStop and am very pleased.

[Cary Falk]

Fo $2000+ I would at lease contact the company and see what they have to say. I would probably be ready to fill it in with epoxy if they don't care(provided you are happy with everything else about the saw). Since it is in the miter slot it wouldn't bother me as much as it being on the working surface. If you get a replacement, you run the risk of getting something with looser tolerances where it counts as others have said. I would be interested in the company name and response once the issue has been resolved.

[Jeff Duncan]

this is not addressed to the OP but to the rest of us. Barring a structural flaw we can't lose sight of which is the lipstick and which is the pig here. We are critical of pits in the table- which is fair- but don't ask about the quality of the CI itself. You used to be able to find out the Meehanite ratings but no longer. We haven't a clue what quality of bearings are specd, how well the motor is made, the type or thickness of steel in the base, how it is welded, etc, etc. I like high quality a lot but we can't forget that the more we demand the cosmetics look good, the lower the quality of the parts we can't see. the law of unintended consequences force manufacturers to put money on the outside rather than where it counts. I'm looking at my Porter now- they slopped paint on it evidently in the dark but used ABEC 5 bearings because the buyers knew what was more important. In fairness, they are no longer in business so maybe the paint was important. Dave

David hit the nail on the head! I've seen this trend happening for a long time now. The general concept that all these mid-range machines are made in the same Asian plant and just use different paint has been touted as truth for years. "Why pay more for the same machine with different paint?" With no attention to the important things, like quality control, grade of bearings, quality of machine work etc etc.. Guys will readily buy a machine with Chinese bearings, then turn around and tell someone else not to use Chinese bearings as a replacement? They buy machines with Asian motors, then turn around and recommend only Leeson or Baldor as replacements to others? There's a real disconnect here and it's directly correlated to the wallet;)

As for Porter, most likely gone b/c they produced a high quality machine less people wanted to pay for. Back in those days I don't believe people were as concerned with perfect as there was no such thing. Machines were still made individually by actual people and had character flaws. The farther you go back the more pronounced it is. If you put something like my old Wysong drill against a Grizzly version, (if they had one), my machine would never get sold. It's ugly as heck and the castings are on the rough side....and that's putting it nicely! Yet it's already served a couple generations and will outlast any cheap Asian import made today. The notion of spending less money and getting a "perfect" machine sounds like fools gold to me:confused:

but I still sympathize with the decision....
JeffD

[Cary Falk]

David hit the nail on the head! I've seen this trend happening for a long time now. The general concept that all these mid-range machines are made in the same Asian plant and just use different paint has been touted as truth for years. "Why pay more for the same machine with different paint?" With no attention to the important things, like quality control, grade of bearings, quality of machine work etc etc.. Guys will readily buy a machine with Chinese bearings, then turn around and tell someone else not to use Chinese bearings as a replacement? They buy machines with Asian motors, then turn around and recommend only Leeson or Baldor as replacements to others? There's a real disconnect here and it's directly correlated to the wallet;)

As for Porter, most likely gone b/c they produced a high quality machine less people wanted to pay for. Back in those days I don't believe people were as concerned with perfect as there was no such thing. Machines were still made individually by actual people and had character flaws. The farther you go back the more pronounced it is. If you put something like my old Wysong drill against a Grizzly version, (if they had one), my machine would never get sold. It's ugly as heck and the castings are on the rough side....and that's putting it nicely! Yet it's already served a couple generations and will outlast any cheap Asian import made today. The notion of spending less money and getting a "perfect" machine sounds like fools gold to me:confused:

but I still sympathize with the decision....
JeffD

So at what price point can one expect perfect? This is a $2000+ saw so I would guess it is not Grizzly and it is probably more than likely Jet. My point is all of my Grizzly tools have been as close to flawless as you can get. Some bad things slip through at any price point. I work in an industry that uses mutlimillion dollar tools and not one of them works straight out of the box. If this is in fact something other than Grizzly and you paid for a name with a perception of a higher quality, I think the company should step up to the plate. If their spec says that this kind of flaw is acceptable then so be it.

[David Kumm]

So at what price point can one expect perfect? This is a $2000+ saw so I would guess it is not Grizzly and it is probably more than likely Jet. My point is all of my Grizzly tools have been as close to flawless as you can get. Some bad things slip through at any price point. I work in an industry that uses mutlimillion dollar tools and not one of them works straight out of the box. If this is in fact something other than Grizzly and you paid for a name with a perception of a higher quality, I think the company should step up to the plate. If their spec says that this kind of flaw is acceptable then so be it.

Cary, I think Grizzly gives good value for the price but is a long way from "as close to flawless as you can get". I've never seen a Felder I consider flawless, or SCMI, or a Mercedes. We accept imperfection in everything because the overall good outweighs the bad. I just bought a 10' SCMI slider for less than 2K and although pretty ugly, it's closer to perfection in my world than any new 2K saw. Again, I think the OP's question is fair, just not sure that 2K can get both a well built and flawless looking saw. Dave

[Chuck Wintle]

i would press the manufacturer for a new top....the blemish may be a sign of a more serious flaw in the metal....and don't wait too long. show them with pictures that the flaw is there.

[Cary Falk]

Cary, I think Grizzly gives good value for the price but is a long way from "as close to flawless as you can get". I've never seen a Felder I consider flawless, or SCMI, or a Mercedes. We accept imperfection in everything because the overall good outweighs the bad. I just bought a 10' SCMI slider for less than 2K and although pretty ugly, it's closer to perfection in my world than any new 2K saw. Again, I think the OP's question is fair, just not sure that 2K can get both a well built and flawless looking saw. Dave

David,
Maybe I should rephrase what I said. My Grizzly are as flawless as any comparable tool 2x+ it’s price. I know nothing is perfect at any price. My saw probably cost ½ what the saw in question cost and mine doesn’t have that blemish. My question was simply “At what cost is that blemish unacceptable?” If company “A” says they they are just as good as everybody else at ½ the price, is that flaw acceptable? If company “B” says that they are better then “A” and charge a premium for it, is that flaw acceptable when “A” doesn’t have it?

Not directed and anybody specific but I always laugh at the better bearing excuse for cost differences. I have replaced enough old bearings to know the cost between cheap and good bearings is not the much. So my bearings fail in 5 years instead of 10. I replace the bearings with better bearings and I am still $$$$$ ahead. No body ever accounts for name recognition and middle man costs etc. I also found it surprising that sumbody admitted that fit and finish of old tools suck or at the lease not any better than it is today. It have thought the same thing of the tools that I have rehabed. There is a whole forum that would have you think otherwise. Sorry about the rant.

[David Kumm]

Cary. I'm not sure about the best for twice the price but get and agree with your points. The bearing example isn't the best. I think it is more subtle than that. Cheat a little on the steel, put in a cheaper starter, reduce the diameter of the cutterhead and the shaft it runs on to use a smaller bearing and assembly. Unless we get as picky about that stuff as what we can see, we are asking for effort to be placed incorrectly IMO. And yes, old machines were not great looking and did not always have much cosmetic appeal- except in Europe prior to the 80s. Bearings in old equipment do tend to be very expensive to replace so factor it into the price if you buy old. Dave

[Van Huskey]

Why are we trying to make it about specific brands? The OP went out of his way to keep brand out of it and based on what he said it could be any one of the major Asian importers, they all sell cabinets saws including shipping that run over $2,000...

BTW there is an inadvertent and I am pretty sure I know who built the saw.

Cary, I think most people site bearings since it is an OBJECTIVE way to see differences many of the other differences tend to be subjective. The natural assumption (rightly or wrongly) is if a manufacturer uses a high end bearing they are less likely to cut other corners than a manufacturer that uses low end bearings. Certainly there are plenty of examples where the fit and finish of old iron doesn't match that of a modern Asian machine but they were building for a different customer, and industrial customer doesn't care about sloppy paint etc like the hobbyist tends to, they want a machine that will run 3 shifts a day for 30 years and that is what they got. If anyone thinks that the Asian importers sell machines with the durability and quality of a Porter 300CM, Oliver 299 or a Northfield #4 they are simply mistaken. I am not of the mind used machines are for everyone but every old used machine I have bought has provided me with a better machines than I could have bought new for at minimum 3-4 times the price. I also think the appreciation for old iron only comes with actual ownership especially if one has current tools to compare them to.

[Chuck Wintle]

I would call the manufaturer/importer/dealer and ask for a new top or a new saw.

You do not know how deep this "blemish" extends further down into the metal, or if it will eventually start to crack as a result of the vibrations from running the saw.
What Ray said!

[Jeff Duncan]

So at what price point can one expect perfect? This is a $2000+ saw so I would guess it is not Grizzly and it is probably more than likely Jet. My point is all of my Grizzly tools have been as close to flawless as you can get. Some bad things slip through at any price point. I work in an industry that uses mutlimillion dollar tools and not one of them works straight out of the box. If this is in fact something other than Grizzly and you paid for a name with a perception of a higher quality, I think the company should step up to the plate. If their spec says that this kind of flaw is acceptable then so be it.

So you find your Grizzly tools to be close to flawless? I also don't want to start a rant against any particular manufacturer, but I've owned Grizzly equipment and flawless is not a word that comes to mind. I've also been "under the hood" of my machines more so than maybe the average user, so I've seen a bit of the 'cost savings'. David expressed it better than I but I think my point is still valid. A quality paint job and a polished top are nice, but don't necessarily signify quality of build;)

So you ask at what price point should one expect perfect.....I don't believe anyone with a solid foundation in reality should ever expect perfect. I believe the more an item costs relative to similar items, the better the quality should be in general. Or put another way, a $2k cabinet saw should be a better quality than a similar $1k cabinet saw. But if the $2k saw is better quality, yet a lesser quality of "appearance"....where does that leave you? I have a Martin shaper in my shop which when new would have been one of, if not the most expensive and best quality shapers available. It's not nearly as cleanly painted as my previous shaper a Powermatic 27. Nor is the top as shiny, (Powermatic seemed to like their polished tops), even accounting for it's age and condition. In other words the eye candy part of the machine is less than the Powermatic, does that indicate the quality of the machine? Should the original owner of the Martin have demanded better:confused:

I made a point in my first post that this is a personal choice, and while everyone here has an opinion, none are necessarily right or wrong, contrary to what some may think. The only right answer is the one the OP comes up with as one the satisfies his needs. The pitting in the top is a judgement call IMHO. Is it a defect....yes, sure it is....considering it's intended purpose, is it something that needs to be replaced???? What I'm saying is everything made by human hands has a defect...some are just more noticeable than others. That's why manufacturers regardless of product have some sort of quality control system in place.....to remove the defects deemed unacceptable.

You say you laugh at the bearing argument but then concede the bearings fail quicker? How much time do you have to spend replacing those bearings? Even a hobbyist has to have some value of their time? For me if a tool goes down I lose time which means I lose money. Which means the cheaper tool didn't save me anything. Add in all the other elements of cost savings used by the manufacturer and the cheaper tool is much more likely to break down and is going to end up costing me more than the higher quality tool down the road;)

I do agree with you that those guys over at the "other" forum are way too into the "looks" of their tools for my taste:) I would't use the term "fit and finish" as much as appearance. "Fit and finish" to me implies how mechanical parts fit together as well as how well their finished. On my older stuff the "fit" is usually pretty darned good, depending on the actual machine, and I'm talking about industrial machines here, I just don't own any of the smaller stuff to be able to speak to it. What's rough are things like the castings, and paint jobs. The castings impart nothing to the function of the machine. As such they were secondary to building a quality of machine that will perform quite literally for generations. So they didn't spend a lot of time grinding and making them pretty. In areas where it counts things are better than most of what you can buy today new. For example going back to bearings, my older machines have bearings that can be maintained vs newer equipment which is almost always of the sealed bearing type. A well maintained greasable or oiled bearing can last virtually forever....a sealed has a very finite lifespan. Replacing bearings is something that may be fairly easy on a small consumer grade machine, but on bigger equipment can be quite involved. Now whether or not the older machines are better than new....that's a whole different subject I'm not getting pulled into here:p

there's my rant...time to go home;)
JeffD

[Cary Falk]

Jeff,
I think you read my second post where I clarified that I would put my Grizzly against others in it's class. I also stated that nothing is perfect at any price point. I am comparing 2 consumer grade tools. From the sound of the OP, the saw in question, is a consumer grade tool. It appears that you are comparing consumer grade sealed bearing tools to industural tools with greasable bearings and saying the industrial is better. I understand that the industrial machine will be better built. I was also saying that if my bearings failed (and I haven't had any failures)in half the time as the other saw in it's class, as a hobbiest I am still money ahead if that is the only problem I have. I do agree that sealed bearings have x amount of life and plan to have to change them at some point if I keep the tool long enough. I'm not going to argue any more about it. Your point was nothing is perfect. My reply was that if a company claims they are better than everybody else in every other way and you pay a hefty premium for it then they should be held acountable for flaws that the other company does not have.

[Van Huskey]

My reply was that if a company claims they are better than everybody else in every other way and you pay a hefty premium for it then they should be held acountable for flaws that the other company does not have.

I take it you are assuming you know who made this table saw?

[Cary Falk]

I take it you are assuming you know who made this table saw?

Company name is not really important for my statement. If you run your model of being the best value then the flaw is probably acceptable. If you are somebody else and charge more because you think you have a better product and people will pay more for it then I think you should be called on it. I would contact the company either way and see what they say. A deal with it attitude would be easier to stomach from one vs the other. I would not call the defect normal in that out of all of the table saws I have had and looked at have had something similar. It probably exists in all cast iron to some extent but I am pretty sure any company at any price point would not put that saw out as their display model

[Myk Rian]

Is this thread going wayward?

[Bruce Page]

Is this thread going wayward?

Yes it is.

[Keith Hankins]

Well it ain't pretty but I don't see it impeding the miter guage. I don't see the hassle of the change worth it. If it were me, I'd throw a little jbweld in there just to make it blend in (cosmetic) and go on. I bought a 12" jointer from Grizzly and the toothed cast piece that is close to the cutter head on the infeed side had a piece of the cast broke off. I called and they sent a new piece, but to be honest it was going to be such a pain to take it down replace the part put it all back together and realign, I never fooled with it. Does not impact cut and that's was 6 years ago. Once you start using it you wont notice, but I've fixed many an imperfections in cast or filled drilled holes in cast tops with jb-weld and once it's sanded down flat, you won't know it's there. I have rehabbed a couple old pieces and did that for drill holes and gouges in cast. Great product. If you want to fool with it get a new top, but I'd not fool with it.

[Jeff Duncan]

So Cary, leaving out all of the other fun stuff, let's boil it down to this....what do you expect out of the phone call?

Let me put it another way, if you put yourself in a position as the buyer, what are you looking for? Do you want to go through the hassle of returning it for another one? Or possibly removing and replacing the top? Or are you looking for some other solution?

This is what the thread boils down to after all. I'm not so much trying to argue with you....that does nothing for anyone, I'm just expressing a different point of view. I've said from the beginning I think the OP is absolutely entitled to claim it as a defect and have it replaced. I don't think anyone would argue that. The question is....is it worth it to do so? So if you as the buyer pick up the phone and say "hi my new saw top has a defect, and they ask "what would you like to do".....what's your answer?

JeffD

[John Coloccia]

re: ultimate outcome

What I would want to hear from the manufacturer is, "I'm documenting it, and if you develop any problems with cracking anywhere later on, even out of warranty, we will make it right." I'm a naive man who believes in the trusting my fellow man, and that would be enough for me. If it developed a crack 5 years from now in some other location from similar defects, I would expect them to make good on it. If they didn't make good on it, well then that's between them and their maker, I suppose.

So that's what I would expect. I don't expect my tools to be perfect, but I expect them not to have these sort of defects from day one. If they do, I don't expect people to jump through hoops to fix them, but I do have an expectation that they will stand behind their product in good faith given the chance to do so. That's not at all unreasonable. That's just good business.

[Cary Falk]

<sigh>
Jeff,
Why are you still trying to argue with me???????? I have said several times call the company up and see what thay say. Go from there. It's up to Doug to decide what he wants to do. It doesn't matter what my answer would be. Why aren't you asking Doug if it is worth to him to get it replaced instead of me? I previously stated Doug might be trading one problem for another. I also stated that slapping some epoxy in it might be the best solution.

Don't bother responding to my post because I am done posting in this thread..

[Bruce Page]

I believe this thread has run its course. Doug probably has more information than he bargained for.