16" jointer

[Steven Hsieh]

I
Which of these 16" would you choose? I'm just wondering. It will be at least another year I can purchase one.

Laguna Industrial Series 16" jointer
http://www.lagunatools.com/jointers/jointer-industrial16# (http://www.lagunatools.com/jointers/jointer-industrial16#)

$8,000


Grizzly G9953 Ultimate 16" jointer
http://www.grizzly.com/products/The-Ultimate-16-Jointer/G9953

$4,750

SCMI F 410 NOVA jointer
http://www.scmgroupna.com/p-509-f410-nova-jointer.aspx

Mini Max Formula F-1 16" jointer
http://www.minimax-usa.com/index.php?page=shop.product_details&flypage=flypage_bs.tpl&product_id=59&category_id=14&option=com_virtuemart&Itemid=35

[David Kumm]

The MM and SCMI are basically the same jointer and the top of that list. In the 3000-5000 range don't forget used. The old Northfield, Oliver 166, Newman 60, Porter 300 in good condition are all every bit as good as the SCMI. A used Martin T54 is pretty sweet too. A jointer is one machine where good used beats good new. Dave

[Jamie Buxton]

In the last couple of weeks, in the SF craigslist, there have been two old-iron 12" jointers. One was a Yates-American, and the other a Crescent. They both looked to be in very good shape. They're both in the $1200 area. You sure you want to spend $8000 to get another four inches?

[David Kumm]

Used SCMI pop up pretty regularly and the American, later the Yates American, and the Crescent were good too. You probably want to avoid babbit. Watch the machinery exchange at Woodweb and you will see choices that will get you educated by the time you buy. Dave

[Steven Hsieh]

Is it hard to find replacement parts for these used machines?

[David Kumm]

Is it hard to find replacement parts for these used machines?

Yes but they are built so well if it isn't broken when you buy it you won't likely be able to break it. Bearings, electrics, motor are all fairly easy to deal with. If the tables are flat and not hollowed out in the center and the cast iron parts are not cracked you are golden. At 3000-5000 you are dealing with plug and play good shape stuff. When you spend less you may have some work. Machines are not like cars. they generally clean up and run just like new. They were built before value engineering took over. Cast iron was fine grained Mehanite stuff. Dave

[Rick Fisher]

Jointer's are pretty simple, I agree with David, the parts are such that unless you hit the jointer with your car, it should never need parts..

Of your selection, I would go with a used SCM or Mini Max..

Other than size, what would be important to me is how the fence operates.. Will it stay square .. What size is the fence ?

I have a 12" Griggio .. it has a cast iron fence that is larger than the beds on most 6" Jointer's.. The upside is that its great for edge jointing big boards, downside is that its got a slight twist .. The mechanism which holds it is so heavily built that the fence stays 90 degrees... no matter what I do to it ..

[Rod Sheridan]

I also would go with a Euro jointer, they often have insert knives which require no adjustment..................Rod.

[Jeff Duncan]

The only one on your list I would consider is the SCM, but I wouldn't spend that for a new jointer unless I had just won the lottery and needed a way to spend the money. Of course in that case I'd probably buy a Martin anyway:D

Just as a base of reference, for the $8k your Laguna lists at, I bought a 16" EMA (Italian) jointer, a 20" SCM planer, a 7-1/2 hp Martin shaper, a 12" Wadkin table saw, a 43" Timesaver wide belt sander, and a HolzHer edgebander over the last 2 years. So a 16" jointer vs a shop full of equipment! Now granted I spent a lot of time 'hunting' the deals, and had expenses for moving the equipment so YMMV;)

good luck,
JeffD

[Peter Quinn]

The SCM and MINImax are basically the same machine, both have a tersa head, and thats a plus. The SCM's are built like tanks, the fence is decent, that would be high on my list. The Laguna used to be a Griggio machine, a call to them could verify the manufacturer. If its still Griggio, thats a serious consideration when paired with the spiral carbide head. If its Asian, who knows what you can expect. The fence looks decent. If its for personal use, parts and service may not be much of an issue. These things are all pretty hard to kill. If its a commercial purchase, SCM has pretty good support, so does Minimax. The rest of them. well, the jury is still out. I use a 25 year old SCM jointer daily at work that has had its but kicked and still does a great job, so that wins points in my book.

[Rick Fisher]

The Laguna " industrial " jointer is Asian.. The Griggio are the " J " series.. The 16" machine is $12,800.00

For that money ... I would get a Mini Max ..

My 12" Griggio is a Laguna.. about 3-4 years ago they had a 50% off show models discount.. it had some dings and scratches.. I think I paid about $4500 for it ..

The Tersa head on a jointer is actually awesome.. I mill lots of rough lumber and sadly hit the odd staple .. When I get a nick all the way around, I simply knock out one knife, move it 1mm and go back to work..

Not sure how much a new Mini Max 16" jointer costs .. I wish SCM put prices on their website.. I have however seen loads of used ones in the $4000 neighborhood.. I think JR got one recently ..

[Frank Drew]

Steven,

16" is nice, and the tables are usually nice and long (a big plus), but you can face joint boards up to around 23+ inches on a 12" machine by flipping end for end after every pass, so unless there's a compelling reason to get the larger one you might find a 12" is all you need.

I'd also strongly agree with David's suggestion to at least look for good quality used. I had a Northfield, Oliver is, IMO, the class of the field, but I'd also look at Crescent, Moak, Yates, etc., and I've never heard anything but praise for any machine from Martin (but they do tend to be pricey).

[Brian Brightwell]

I bought a Unitronex 16inch jointer last year for $1700. Some small repairs and it works perfect. You can see a picture on the "workshop" threads under my Shop Tour. It is an old jointer and made in Poland. Don't laugh.

[johnny means]

Steven,

you can face joint boards up to around 23+ inches on a 12" machine by flipping end for end after every pass,

I wish someone would put this idea to rest. You cannot flatten a cupped or twisted board in this manner.

Anyway, I've worked with the SCMI and it is a real beast. Took up to a 3/4" cut, which was real handy for rounding off turning blanks and certain types of corner details in trim pieces.

[Erik Loza]

The MM and SCMI are basically the same jointer..

Yes, correct. Just to elaborate, FORMULA was essentially a re-badged SCMi Nova line. It was discontinued by SCMI in 2009-ish due to redundancy: There was no point in having two of the same machine. For reasons beyond me, FORMULA still appears on the North American Minimax homepage. When I ask about it, the answer is, "We'd rather have them call and then route them to an SCM dealer than to not have them call at all". Which makes no sense to me, since that is basically advertising something that no longer exists, but as they say, mine is not to ask... :cool:



...Not sure how much a new Mini Max 16" jointer costs... I wish SCM put prices on their website...

Honestly, Rick, so do I. It would make life a lot easier from a sales perspective. Just to help clarify, the reason why pricing does not appear on the SCM Group or Minimax websites is because in many parts of North America, both brands are handled by the dealer network as opposed to directly to the owner by a rep like Sam or like me. While pricing for Minimax product is fixed in the US Domestic Market, it varies in other markets and dealers do not want pricing listed on their websites (which is par for the industry).

I just tell folks to call me if they have any questions. Minimax US pricing is no great secret, it just can't be posted on the Web.

Best,

Erik Loza
Minimax USA

[David Kumm]

The Tersa head is a pretty nice deal on a jointer. On a 16" I would prefer it to a byrd type. As Frank said you can't deal with really screwed up boards that are wider than the jointer by flipping but you can get pretty close with decent lumber. The oliver swing away guard is nice in that it swings away but also can be a pain and hang up.. The Porter swing away lamb chop is better. If you intend on using it for wider boards you want a guard that dismantles easily. The Oliver doesn't have jack screws so it is a little tougher to set knives. You do get pretty fast at knife changing but the Tersa is still the easiest. The 60+" fence that is 6" high spoils you in a hurry and on a direct drive machine you need a brake of some sort as the head will spin for about 5 minutes which happens to be longer than either my attention span or long term memory. There was a SCMI auctioned in CA just recently and one in WI for sale. Dave

[Scott T Smith]

I'm not in the same camp as everybody else. I presently own a 25" Oliver jointer/planer (carbide insert), and a 16" Scheppach combo machine (Leica cutterhead - similar to the Tersa). Previously I owned the 3 phase carbide insert spiral cutterhead Grizzly version of the one that you listed.

The Oliver is great because it's a production machine. However, I much preferred the 16" Grizzly over the Scheppach. For one, IMO the pork chop style cover is easier (and safer) than the sliding extrusion, and the carbide inserts are most cost effective in the long run (as well as much more quiet in operation).


If you can find some older American Iron, then check to see if a carbide insert cutterhead is available for it.

[joe milana]

There are several 12 & 16" jointers on ebay right now (sort price: highest first). Would be interesting to hear comments from those who know these machines.

[Van Huskey]

I wish someone would put this idea to rest. You cannot flatten a cupped or twisted board in this manner.

.


PUT TO REST! Though no one will listen...

Buy used, plenty of plug and play Oliver, Yates, Porter, Moak, Northfield etc in the price range and they will be worth the same or more in 5 years. If you don't overpay it will be a non-depreciating asset, ain't gonna happen with anything new. Jointers are SIMPLE machines if they are still running well after 20-30-40-50 years they will continue to run well as long as they are maintained.

Of the ones you list the SCMI/MM would be my choice.

[David Kumm]

There are several 12 & 16" jointers on ebay right now (sort price: highest first). Would be interesting to hear comments from those who know these machines.

I have both an Oliver 166 and Porter 300 CM and prefer the Porter but the reality is any good well tuned jointer of these types with good tables and bearings will be impossible to distinguish from another. Get whatever comes up and feels right.If it doesn't feel right look some more. The quality differences among the old jointers mentioned are minimal. Dave

[Van Huskey]

There are several 12 & 16" jointers on ebay right now (sort price: highest first). Would be interesting to hear comments from those who know these machines.

Before I went to eBay I would go to Ben at Pleasant Street or Bill Kerfoot @ CS Machinery. Bill has an AWESOME 24" Northfield but it is $7k but might be something OP would be interested in, Bill has a very nice Porter CM300CM 16" for $3750 both SERIOUSLY good machines. Another good source is Woodweb both Ben and Bill post in the classifieds there.

[Brian Weick]

Oliver, Northfield, porter, American,Fay & Egan, MOAK.........American made Machinery... and ...built with quality in mind back in the day........3ph.....yes their heavy.....

But if you can work it out....

You'll never look at new equipment again..........

As long as you have 220s single ph....you'll be Ok...up to 21 amps......VFD....modern marvel of electronic engineering...

After that..you'll need an RPC......

JMPO....


Best of luck to you.....whatever you get,,,,,

B,

[David Kumm]

Fred Rehak is another stand up dealer who prices fairly and describes his stuff accurately IMO. May be too far away in MI though. Dave

[Andrew Joiner]

I'm not in the same camp as everybody else. I presently own a 25" Oliver jointer/planer (carbide insert)

.


Scott ,
Is that like the old straitoplane? Does it flatten and straighten both faces of long boards in one pass?

[Rick Fisher]

I think my dream Jointer would be a General Canadian 880, 16" Jointer..

I am Canadian, so I am biased.. :)

To the OP .. I think it would be disappointing to buy a new Asian jointer for $8000 .. There is so much more bang for the buck available.. After you own it for a month, its worth probably less than 1/2 what you paid .. Buy a good used machine and you can sell it for very close to what you paid ..

The mini-max or SCM jointers are typically 3 Phase... and I believe 6.6 hp .. or more .. That is a bit of a hiccup but you can easily overcome it for the price spread..

[Scott T Smith]

Scott ,
Is that like the old straitoplane? Does it flatten and straighten both faces of long boards in one pass?

Andrew, you nailed it - it's the new version of a straitoplane. Great machine too.

[Andrew Joiner]

Very cool Scott. Must be real time saver.

[Richard Coers]

Seriously? Have you actually done this Frank? It seems highly unlikely to work considering grain direction reversal and actually getting the board flat. You would be reversing contact points on a twisted board, etc.... I'd have to see a video of a successful run to believe it, and then probably would dismiss it as video "trickery". On your theory, all we would ever need is a 6" machine.

Steven,

16" is nice, and the tables are usually nice and long (a big plus), but you can face joint boards up to around 23+ inches on a 12" machine by flipping end for end after every pass, so unless there's a compelling reason to get the larger one you might find a 12" is all you need.

I'd also strongly agree with David's suggestion to at least look for good quality used. I had a Northfield, Oliver is, IMO, the class of the field, but I'd also look at Crescent, Moak, Yates, etc., and I've never heard anything but praise for any machine from Martin (but they do tend to be pricey).

[Erik Loza]

On a not-unrelated note, I had a customer once call me because they were experiencing issues in flattening boards on a big SCMi jointer they owned. In my mind, I couldn't understand why they were having issues until he mentioned that he was feeding the machine with a power feeder. All the feeder was doing was flattening out the stock as it ran across the cutterhead. Of course, the wood "popped" right back into its original shape once it came out. Remembered this while reading the above ^^^ post.

Erik Loza
Minimax USA

[David Kumm]

I face joint wider boards regularly. You are correct that twist and cup are bad things but if the board is relatively straight and particularly if less than 8' long it works pretty well. I buy a lot of maple that has been glued up from 4" strips in rough form- the supplier uses up his waste that way. The glue ups are 14-22" wide and I use them for drawers and anything paint grade as I don't like poplar much. They are uneven but pretty flat and while the jointer won't provide a finished surface it gets the board flat enough to go in the planer. I realize I have a pretty specific application but pre glued up maple for less money and a fold away jointer guard make life pretty sweet. Dave

[Arnold E Schnitzer]

I would not get anything without a segmented helical cutterhead with carbide inserts. Converting my 12" machine to this system changed my life.

[Jeff Duncan]

David, I'm curious about your maple glue-ups? Don't all those glue joints kill your knives pretty quickly? How cheap is this wood to make it worth your while? FWIW if I'm looking for cheap paint grade I usually ask my supplier if they have any stain grade soft maple, which last time I bought cost $1 a bd ft in 500 ft lots. Even hard maple is pretty cheap in general. I'm just curious as I would think the wear and tear on your knives would eliminate much of the savings of cheap stock....no???

The removal of the guard to flip wide pieces is preached about pretty hard on another forum. My personal take is that it's awful scary to remove the guard on a small jointer, never mind a 12" wide one, to try and feed a wobbly board through. But like many things in woodworking....everyone has their own comfort zone.

JeffD

[Frank Drew]

I wish someone would put this idea to rest [face jointing stock wider than your jointer by flipping after each cut]. You cannot flatten a cupped or twisted board in this manner.



Johnny, Van, Richard,

Put what to rest? Something I've done successfully many dozens (hundreds?) of times over a 25 year career making furniture professionally? (As a general rule, it's best not to say something is impossible simply because you haven't done it; this is in fact not an uncommon practice in the trade where not every shop has an extra wide jointer.)

Can we agree that the point of face jointing is to prepare a board for the thickness planer, to make it flat enough to run face jointed side down through the planer? Face jointing is not the final cut, it's not intended to produce a finished surface, it just creates one face straight along its length and flat enough across its width so the board won't deform when run through the planer.

With some luck and if you buy your material carefully most of your boards will be fairly flat to begin with so the flipping method is easy-peasy and you're on to the planer in no time; on the other hand, some boards you come across will be too out-of-flat to face joint no matter how wide the cutterhead, or even using a Strait-O-Plane, but if somewhere inside a more moderately cupped or in-wind board is a flat, straight board the thickness you need, you can probably flatten one face sufficiently on a jointer that's a bit more that half the board's width (so Richard, no, a six inch jointer can't flatten the face of a 20 inch board, but it can flatten an 11 inch one.) With cupped boards, you might need to lift the board slightly on the outboard side for the first few passes.

Again, this is something I've done successfully many, many times; I liked working with wide stock when possible -- and I dislike sawing and regluing wide boards, although sometimes there's no alternative -- but I only had a 12" jointer so I had to do it from time to time. Ditto where I apprenticed and we only had a 6 in. jointer and sometimes worked with 10-11" stuff. FWIW, I think building a planer sled is too slow for a production situation.

If you want to knock off some high points with a hand plane before face jointing, by all means do so; it might make the job go faster.

David, thanks for your comment about handling wide stock on a jointer.

[Larry Edgerton]

I use my jointers for processing cheese. The straight knife head makes better cheese for salads, and the Byrd head makes better cheese for tacos. Vegamatic my ear....

I have done what Frank suggests, but I don't like it. As he says, you are only looking to get it into the planer. I plane jointed faces every time, the planer just does a better job. The jointer is a rough tool as far as my work situation.

I have had a Porter, but my next and probably final jointer will be an SCM F4 or equivalent, with a Tersa head. I have Byrd and Tersa heads, and I like the Tersa better. I want one lever control so I can look at the bow in the board and take it out in one pass.

Also, I use a power feed on my jointer when rough prepping stock. I set it about 6 inches downstream of the cutterhead and set the jointer for each board to take out all the bow in one pass. If the board is extreme I set it aside to do manually. No problems? I use it for jointing edges as well. Thats what I bought them for, to save me work.

Just kidding on the cheese thing........

Larry

[Frank Drew]

As anyone who's face jointed with straight knives know, it really creates a heck of a racket; a fellow with a modern (Tersa?) cutterhead told me that you could have a normal conversation right next to someone face jointing on his machine. Love to try one some day.

[Larry Edgerton]

My SCM planer has a Tersa, and you can indeed talk in a normal tone while it is planing. Cool stuff. I have yet to find a wood that the Tersa head will not plane without blowout. Not sure why it works, but I don't care, it works.

Larry

[Robert LaPlaca]

My SCM planer has a Tersa, and you can indeed talk in a normal tone while it is planing. Cool stuff. I have yet to find a wood that the Tersa head will not plane without blowout. Not sure why it works, but I don't care, it works.

Larry

I think the success of the Tersa knives is the sharpness of the cutting edge.. The Tersa edge is sharp like a good honed chisel, I never had the pleasure of having a standard straight knife with such a keen edge no matter who sharpened them..

[joe milana]

What does a 16" set of tersa knives cost?

[Chris Fournier]

First I would like to say that a 16" jointer is a treat.

Get one.

But all of this talk of giant vintage machines and modern cutter heads that you can talk beside while they hog lumber? If it sounds too good to be true...

Vintage machines are very heavy and usually use power drives that are wildy inefficient by 1970s standards let alone todays standards. Oh yeah, are you feeling proud of your 2 ton jointer cause it's heavy? Not when you have to move it or sell it, then it's called a liability. I've used several vintage behemoths in my day and there isn't one of them that I'd choose over a modern machine (even the modern Martin jointer that had - GASP - concrete poured in the base for ballast - blasphemy). Engineering has marched on and believe me, the modern fare is far more pleasant to use and produces the finest surfaces (I'm not even talking about cutter changes here, just passing boards over a running machine).

The silent insert or segment cutter head that is whisper quiet; I own both and not one of them is quiet enough to talk beside while you do serious stock reduction. This is before you condsider the din of the DC that is required to haul away the chip load. Sure you can talk beside them while they're running with no stock passing over them - so what?

Find the newest modern European machine that you can afford and buy it. You will not be disappointed. Get a Tersa head if you can and use M2 cutters, it will be cheaper than sharpening old school knives and way more pleasant to live with.

Do not expect miracles from modern technology but don't think for a moment that engineering and ingenuity has not raised the performance bar over the years.

[Rick Fisher]

I actually agree with Chris which is why I recommended the SCM Jointer.

The old iron is attractive when its priced right .. As I suggested earlier, a 16" Griggio new is $12,800 from Laguna.. I bet the SCM 16" is close to $10K .. If you can buy a real old jointer for $2000 .. it could be an opportunity most folks would not afford.

I use the M series Tersa knives on my jointer and have jointed plenty of glue-up's on it .. I can tell you .. it dulls the knives.. lol I did a whack of counter tops and face jointed maple glue-ups in 11" widths.. Then attached 3 pieces 11" wide.. I got a dead flat 32" Wide Counter top..

It dulls the knives, but its life.. Tersa knives are so easy to change that I consider part of the project.

The old Iron is cool, but I would NEVER go back to the old style jointer knives which need to be set.. When Chris was talking about modern, that is one modern feature that I could not live without .. Byrd or Tersa is awesome for a jointer.. Old style knives .. Yuk..

[Van Huskey]

Chris, have you used a old iron jointer with a large cutting circle and ground and jointed in place knives... I would be surprised if you have and think the modern stuff does any better of a job. Jointers are simple machines, they haven't changed and ground and jointed in place knives are just as accurate as anything, maybe more so...

[David Kumm]

Stephen, whether you buy high end Euro or high end old cast iron you will be light years ahead over most. In a production environment it is pretty tough to argue against the Tersa, in a more hobby type world straight knives work just fine. I change my knives about twice a year and with two oneway indicators it takes about 30 minutes if I'm having a bad day. I don't grind and joint my own- which is the best way- but Bobby at Woodworkerstoolworks sharpens mine. I tell him I work with hardwood and run a 5" cutterhead at 3500 rpm and he does a great job of grinding to order. Technology hasn't done nearly as much for jointers as other machines. It's more about materials and quality than anything else. The used market is moving towards the high end euro but there are limits to that as well. Not so much for jointers but other machines that are stuffed full of electronics are becoming obsolete well before the machine itself fails. Get the best machine in the best condition and you will be a happy guy. Now when it comes to planers you will have to be careful. Dave

[Frank Drew]

Chris,

I don't think that the argument was that old machines are always better than new machines, but rather that when shopping for machinery don't overlook the high-quality used market if money is a consideration (and for most of us it is.) It doesn't matter how good a machine is if it's simply too expensive.

It's certainly worth a few months search, but eventually you have to get something and get to work; if you can't find used of a quality and at a price you want, you'll have to buy new.

[Robert LaPlaca]

What does a 16" set of tersa knives cost?

A 410 mm (aka. 16 inch) M42+ Tersa knife goes for about $30 per knife, each knife has two edges.. Most Tersa cutter heads contain three our four knives... So either $90 or $120, but as I said there are two edges on each knife, and the knives can be changed in 3 minutes

[Chris Fournier]

Chris, have you used a old iron jointer with a large cutting circle and ground and jointed in place knives... I would be surprised if you have and think the modern stuff does any better of a job. Jointers are simple machines, they haven't changed and ground and jointed in place knives are just as accurate as anything, maybe more so...

I have used two machines like that Van, they were indeed accurate, but they weren't as "pleasant" to use as any of the current machines that I have also used. The surface finish was never as good as on a modern jointer; it must be said that we spun those machines up to dress very wide stock which was never easy - two man affairs. Nothing makes jointer/planer maintenance easier than insert cutters be they Tersa or chip, I have found that most folks are too lazy, intimidated, or cheap to buy good tooling and take the time that is required to always have fresh well set knives in place. Many "woodworkers" seem content to take feeble passes because their cutterheads are mashing the lumber not cutting it.

Now if I had an old mill building with a line shaft...

[Scott T Smith]

Very cool Scott. Must be real time saver.

Indeed. Probably has reduced the joint/planing time by 60% or more.

[Jeff Duncan]

I agree and disagree with both Chris and Van. Have machines been improved on generally over the last 100 years...yes....no....maybe? A jointer is a very basic tool, you have 2 tables and a rotating knife of some sort between them to flatten stock. The difference comes down to the details.

The greatest improvements in my mind are in the design of the cutter head....mostly related to safety. No one can argue the old square head or clamshell cutter heads were any better than todays modern cutter heads. So in that aspect modern wins....of course the round heads came into play decades ago, so how modern is modern?

I also personally like the parallelogram style of tables which in my experience makes changing table heights much quicker. So for me anyway modern wins again.....though again this style jointer has also been around for decades so???

If we're talking about modern being say machines built in the last decade or two, I'm going to say there probably haven't been any improvements in the jointer that would sway me towards a new machine. Tersa heads? I hear they're nice, but I change my straight knives about once a year. Yeah I probably let them go a little too long, but as has been mentioned here before, the jointer isn't a finishing machine, it's just to get straight boards to go on to the planer or table saw. So for my small shop I would't see the ROI before I retire:( Insert cutter heads are all the rage, and having had one on a planer I can understand why. Are they worth the cost....maybe? For my machine it would again be a problem in terms of recouping the investment. I personally think the hobby shop does better with insert heads than a pro shop. Reason being that most guys with a hobby shop will never need to replace those inserts. For a pro shop I think the time required to rotate all those little cutters, and the cost associated with eventually replacing them makes the Tersa heads look a lot more attractive.

So for a small shop I'd argue these 2 newer cutterhead styles are more a convenience factor than anything else. Any argument that they leave a cleaner finish can be debated, but is really moot anyway as again....not a finishing machine! I get clean stock out of my straight knife jointer, so if it's a nice clean finish, why do I need it to be more clean? In bigger shops with a lot of stock going over the jointer it's a different story. As to whether or not the expense is worth the extra investment....well that's a personal decision and will be different for everyone.

I don't think the going 'lighter' is necessarily a benefit either. Remember the class of machine we're talking about here is designed and built towards professional shops. So making them lighter so they're easier to move is probably not a concern. Now if you can make it lighter using new materials and engineering without sacrificing anything I'm all for that. I just don't see it as being a factor that would sway my choice. If and when I ever have to move my shop its very likely going to be done by riggers. My 16" jointer is the least of my concerns as far as moving equipment!

So for me the improvements in the last say 2 decades just don't have much sway.

Now generally speaking I don't think there are any disadvantages to new jointers.....once you get past the sticker price:eek: They are pretty simple machines after all. However talking new machinery in general I think there is one major disadvantage to the small shop....electronics. The electronics being used on new equipment are getting progressively more complicated and expensive. I have 2 heavy duty German shapers, (another very simple machine),....one made in 69' has basically a motor and a switch, the other, a 1980 machine, has a large cabinet with a whole bunch of electrical connections in it, and I freely admit to not understanding most of it:confused: Both machines are quite literally identical in almost every way outside the electrical.....so what advantage does the newer machine have? If something goes wrong inside that cabinet I'm down until I can get a tech in, if the older one goes down I figure it out and get it back up and running.

Old machines, new machines, each have their advantages and disadvantages, it comes down to a persons individual needs. All I can speak to is my needs as a small mostly one man shop. And in that situation simpler is generally better. As I said at the beginning of this thread, my choice would be the SCM, though not b/c it's newer. I would choose it b/c it's the same design as my jointer, a very well built machine that I like, and b/c I would never invest that kind of money in a new Asian made machine! As frequently said though....YMMV;)

good luck,
JeffD

[Larry Edgerton]

A 410 mm (aka. 16 inch) M42+ Tersa knife goes for about $30 per knife, each knife has two edges.. Most Tersa cutter heads contain three our four knives... So either $90 or $120, but as I said there are two edges on each knife, and the knives can be changed in 3 minutes

I'm paying less than that for 520's in M42 at Global Tool.

Larry

[Chris Fournier]

I'm paying less than that for 520's in M42 at Global Tool.

Larry

$20.00 for 410mm M42. It's very cost effective. Now carbide...

[Robert LaPlaca]

I'm paying less than that for 520's in M42 at Global Tool.

Larry

Well I guess we have confirmed that I am getting 'hosed' on the pricing of m42+ knives..Better start using Global Tool? Thanks for the tip Larry and Chris.

[howard s hanger]

Hammer A3-41? 16" jointer/Planer combo. Solves two needs in one.

[Rick Fisher]

One word of caution if your buying a Euro 3 phase Jointer and don't have 3 phase power.. In some parts of Europe, tools over a certain HP with exposed cutters are required to have a brake. When I bought my Griggio, I had planned on running it on a VFD.. The Motor is made by CEG and has an aggressive Electromagnetic brake ..

After it arrived, I learned that it would wreak havoc on a VFD, either trip it or cook it each time I shut the jointer down.. Its got something to do with the motor brake causing the motor to dump a bunch of wattage back into the line.. The VFD cant handle the sudden surge. I dunno ... maybe the brake makes it happen faster and stronger..

Anyway.. Factorymation and a bunch of other guys actually confirmed that I could not use a VFD to create 3 phase power for that machine.. The cost jumped big time after that..

It would be interesting to hear if any SCM owners have run into the same thing..

I have a sander and DC from Europe, neither have Electromagnetic brakes.. I believe its a " sharp " issue.. Felder will install VFD's into their machines in Canada, I was told they disconnect the brake as part of the procedure.. I didn't want to do that ..

[David Kumm]

Rick, if the machine has a DC injection brake you would want to disconnect it if using a VFD. Since you can get a braking unit with a vfd pretty cheap you will still have braking capability. Felder machines that have variable speed or in some cases run on single phase are really three phase motors with an internal VFD. As good as Felder is, an internal vfd vs a regular RPC is asking for eventual trouble. Not easy to replace or rewire and not cheap. Those older machines are ones where the electronics would cause me to avoid them. Dave

[Frank Drew]

Perhaps I'm unaware of the advantage, but just offhand I wouldn't consider a brake on a jointer a must-have feature..

[David Kumm]

Perhaps I'm unaware of the advantage, but just offhand I wouldn't consider a brake on a jointer a must-have feature..

Frank, I think a brake of some sort is mandatory on a direct drive jointer. Mine would run 5 minutes which is longer than I would remember. Because I tend to be stupid I have a rule to never walk away from a machine until totally stopped. I have a Y20 bandsaw that is so quiet I'd likely lose a finger if I didn't have the rule. Dave

[joe milana]

Dave, In an earlier post, you said on larger 16"+ machines, you would prefer a Tersa head to a Byrd head. Any particular reason why?

[Jeff Duncan]

I think if one works safely, meaning keeping fingers away from blades running or not, than a brake is not really necessary on the jointer. Though I agree with David, direct drive machines always made me a bit nervous as they keep running....silently, for a very long time!

Having said that I think brakes on machines are a very, very, good thing. At some point far down the road we'll even have regulations here in the states, (not a political rant, just an observation), to make machinery safer, and braking will be an important feature. Currently we're probably a half century behind the Europeans in this regard. Only downside is it will all be electronic, thereby adding yet another thing to worry about. personally I like the manual brake my bandsaw, shapers, and wide belt have. Much easier for my small intellect to replace a brake pad than a transistor;)

On the other hand I really like the idea of having a soft start feature on some of my machines....especially the shapers!

JeffD

good luck,
JeffD

[David Kumm]

Dave, In an earlier post, you said on larger 16"+ machines, you would prefer a Tersa head to a Byrd head. Any particular reason why?

Nothing against the Byrd, I have one on my small finish planer. I don't rely on the jointer for a finish so I would rather spend the money on something else. I'm fine with the regular straight knife but the Tersa would allow me to change out blades in minutes and change to the best blades for certain woods. I guess I'm just a knife guy on a jointer and since I would rather buy high end used, a tersa would not be an upcharge while a byrd would. Dave

[joe milana]

Nothing against the Byrd, I have one on my small finish planer. I don't rely on the jointer for a finish so I would rather spend the money on something else. I'm fine with the regular straight knife but the Tersa would allow me to change out blades in minutes and change to the best blades for certain woods. I guess I'm just a knife guy on a jointer and since I would rather buy high end used, a tersa would not be an upcharge while a byrd would. Dave

I see. Both my current jointer & planer (Taiwanese) have Byrd heads, but I would like to upgrade to larger (Scmi, northfield, Porter, etc) machines with at least Tersa heads. I just wonder if I would miss the Byrd heads, and regret the decision. Easy blade changes would be nice, but with the byrd heads, it's so infrequent, it's not much of an issue.

[David Kumm]

Joe, you won't likely find a Tersa on the old American iron. I had the room so I kept my DJ20 for edge jointing and smaller stuff. It has Esta knives and every time I think I should go byrd I just change the knives and I'm happy with the finish. I just like the big knives on the big machine but Esta are not a bad alternative. Dave

[Myk Rian]

I outfitted my entire shop for less than $3k by buying and restoring vintage equipment.
That includes a vintage fan I use to blow air around.

[Jeff Duncan]

I see. Both my current jointer & planer (Taiwanese) have Byrd heads, but I would like to upgrade to larger (Scmi, northfield, Porter, etc) machines with at least Tersa heads. I just wonder if I would miss the Byrd heads, and regret the decision. Easy blade changes would be nice, but with the byrd heads, it's so infrequent, it's not much of an issue.

One thing to be careful of is whether or not a machine can use a Tersa head. To my knowledge on the Tersa heads the knives have to slide out of the head, Dave can probably confirm this. A lot of older equipment, especially planers, will not allow this to happen. I believe there are other systems that work similarly to the Tersa but the blades come out the top, instead of sliding out.

Like David I also have a DJ20 I keep around for light passes when I need a clean finished edge. It is a really handy setup. I think about the Byrd head pretty often as it's pretty reasonable for this sized jointer. I just use it so sparingly I haven't changed the knives in over 2 years!

good luck,
jeffD

[joe milana]

Good point Jeff. There are a couple euro 16" jointers on ebay right now that already have the tersa head. The ones that don't, like the porter & oliver, I'm not even sure they could be converted, and would it be worth it?

[Zach Callum]

Well I guess we have confirmed that I am getting 'hosed' on the pricing of m42+ knives..Better start using Global Tool? Thanks for the tip Larry and Chris.

Check out www.tersaknives.com (http://www.tersakives.com). They are out of Canada. Great prices, great service, and fast shipping. If you are in the US, you just need to order enough to offset the shipping cost. I have ordered knives from a couple of other places located in the US(genuine Tersa so they say), the knives arrived somewhat dirty, and were not as sharp as I was used to. I don't know if there was a bad batch floating around or what, but I have never had any problems with tersaknives.com.

[David Kumm]

Generally the older jointers won't accept Tersa without really butchering them up and probably destroying their value. Terminus or Esta are alternatives. Those old large cutterheads were such high quality and so smooth I would not buy a 16" and change them unless they are clamshell. Knife changing just isn't that big a deal- Oliver being the toughest unless you need to do it every few weeks. Dave

[joe milana]

Dave, I don't see a real advantage of the Tersa head over a conventional head using the Esta knives, except maybe Tersa heads make knife changes "a few seconds" faster. Are there advantages?

[David Kumm]

Joe, I still use a oneway to verify the Esta as crud or lack of care can cause a knife to get off a little. Tersa are pretty much bulletproof if the knives are well made. On a big jointer with jack screws I prefer the heavy traditional knife but that is purely subjective. I don't like the Esta that reference the cutter head rather than the jack screw. Again, I figure 30-40 minutes for reg knives, 10-15min for Esta, no experience with Tersa but suspect 2-5 min. Dave

[thomas prusak]

Check out the jointer/planer FELDER AD 741 with power drive

[Peter Kelly]

I
Which of these 16" would you choose? I'm just wondering. It will be at least another year I can purchase one.

Laguna Industrial Series 16" jointer
http://www.lagunatools.com/jointers/jointer-industrial16# (http://www.lagunatools.com/jointers/jointer-industrial16#)

$8,000

I still can't get past this. $8k for a Chaiwanese jointer? It's the exact same model that Extrema has for $5k. I can't imagine Laguna are selling too many of these..

[Steven Hsieh]

I agree. Its the same as powermatic.

[Erik Loza]

I am in no way implying or suggesting that this what is going on, here, but I have seen it many, many times with my own brand where dealerships puts a high list/web price on something in order to give them more room for the "drop close" when someone calls in. "Oh, yay. Look how much I am saving...". More common with big-ticket, low volume items, since it allows the dealership room to drop the price or throw in a bunch of freebies for "perceived value" in order to move the machine.

Again, I am not implying that is the case here, since I have no personal experience with that machine or dealership, just know that this used to happen quite a bit when Minimax was sold in the US through the dealer network. Just some food for thought...

Erik Loza
Minimax USA

[Sam Layton]

Hi Steven,

I have the Minimax Formula 16" jointer. I have had it for a long time and I am very happy with it. The Tersa cutters are great and last a long time. The bed is as I recall 103" long. My first jointer was an 8" Powermatic. I have used a 12" Northfield and I liked it as well. However, the 16" is nice. If I had it all to do over again, I would purchase my Minimax Formula 16". When I purchased my Minimax, I purchased it with a single phase motor. When it arrived, It was three phase. Minimax immediately sent me a new motor, and sent someone to my house to change the motor. Great service.

Sam

[Peter Kelly]

I am in no way implying or suggesting that this what is going on, here, but I have seen it many, many times with my own brand where dealerships puts a high list/web price on something in order to give them more room for the "drop close" when someone calls in. "Oh, yay. Look how much I am saving...". More common with big-ticket, low volume items, since it allows the dealership room to drop the price or throw in a bunch of freebies for "perceived value" in order to move the machine.

Again, I am not implying that is the case here, since I have no personal experience with that machine or dealership, just know that this used to happen quite a bit when Minimax was sold in the US through the dealer network. Just some food for thought...

Erik Loza
Minimax USA

Seen that tactic a lot but usually at places but wouldn't you want the customer to have to interact with an actual human to complete the transaction? Not bashing Laguna per se but I can't imagine why they'd set it up their website with a shopping cart where you'd just throw a $70k router and a $35k edgebander into it. Let's see here, $105,000? No problem! Lemme just put that on my credit card!

[Van Huskey]

Seen that tactic a lot but usually at places but wouldn't you want the customer to have to interact with an actual human to complete the transaction? Not bashing Laguna per se but I can't imagine why they'd set it up their website with a shopping cart where you'd just throw a $70k router and a $35k edgebander into it. Let's see here, $105,000? No problem! Lemme just put that on my credit card!

I think it is resonable to assume you have some negotiation room on most high dollar woodworking machines and although Laguna has them on their site with a (add to cart) button, I seriously doubt many of the high dollar machines sell without dealing with a salesperson. They sell lots of smaller machines and tooling accessories and many of them probably sell via ecommerce, it probably just makes it easy to have the cart option on everything.