Different weights of similar band saws

[Amin Djellaoui]

Hello every one,

Too lazy to make a chart:

ACM SN 500: 255 kg, 2605 USD;
Star 500: 200 Kg, 2605 USD;
Minimax s45n: 180 kg, 2105 USD;
Metabo 505G: 146 kg, WNB: 2226 USD, VNB: 3090 USD;
Agazzani 18/18: 215 kg, ?;
Hammer N4400: 170 kg, 2500 USD.

Felder people gave me another catalog today, I'll ask them about their FB 500.

All of these band saws are of similar cutting capacity, the Hammer N4400 has got a motor of 4 hp and that must weigh a little bit more.

The weight difference between the ACM(Veba)SN 500 and the Metabo 505G for example is of 109 kg, yet they claim the same height and width of cut. I know that Metabo uses too much Aluminium but that's not enough to cause a difference of 200 pounds, IMO.

Does more weight mean a sturdier frame, more precision? I've seen creekers praising the Hammer N4400 so much but that saw weighs only 170 kg. Is there anything wrong with the frame?

What do you think about the ACM(Veba)SN 500, what are the cons?


Pax.

[Erik Loza]

Amin,

I am familiar with most of the bandsaws on your list. There are many ways to answer the question about how weight translates into cutting performance but let me ask you one, first:

"What is it exactly that you would like your bandsaw to be able to do?"

or...

"Can you tell me about some the challenges you have faced in the past with a particular wood/project/technique, that a previous bandsaw struggled with?"

These are questions I ask all potential bandsaw customers and, in my humble opinion, answering them first will let you fill in the blanks to your puzzle a lot better than just specs on paper.

Cheers,

Erik Loza
Minimax USA

[Glen Blanchard]

(glancing at my watch, waiting for Van)

[Amin Djellaoui]

(glancing at my watch, waiting for Van)

So do I!



Amin,

I am familiar with most of the bandsaws on your list. There are many ways to answer the question about how weight translates into cutting performance but let me ask you one, first:

"What is it exactly that you would like your bandsaw to be able to do?"

or...

"Can you tell me about some the challenges you have faced in the past with a particular wood/project/technique, that a previous bandsaw struggled with?"

These are questions I ask all potential bandsaw customers and, in my humble opinion, answering them first will let you fill in the blanks to your puzzle a lot better than just specs on paper.

Cheers,

Erik Loza
Minimax USA

Alright, that's quite simple. I want precision for ordinary straight and curved cuts. I want sturdiness to resaw lumber that is possibly hard.

Placing a bigger motor afterwards or right away is a natural evolutionary step if the engine is of 2 hp, the frame must be able to hold the largest fitting blades without compromising the accuracy.

That's what I want: An accurate brute.

[Van Huskey]

Man, this is a "can of worms" sort of question. First, to make any assumptions much less get definative answers from weights one must know the true weight of each saw and the listed net weights are not always accurate. Second, there is at least one saw in the mix that has a larger height under guides (resaw) than the rest. The Agazzani B-18/18 has right at 18" of resaw, the "standard" B-18 matches better with the rest and weighs in pretty close to the N4400 and Minimax.


In general more weight is better assuming you want to use wide blades for resawing and/or ripping, all of these saws have plenty of heft to handle narrow blades and not be pushed over. For me I like a really stiff spine because I do use wide, high tension blades and do a good bit of tall resawing. Here in the US we don't have as many options for Euro saws as you do (at least in the new market) and my choice of the European steel framed saws is the Centauro built Minimax machines their triple box beams and overall weight put them at the top of the steel framed food chain. In this slightly lighter class of machines we only have 3 of your list imported AND badged as you get them. The ACM saws we get here are rebadged and usually slightly different from the ACM badged machines and thus not easy for me to make any judgement.

Of the three saws we get imported here that you list the Agazzani B18/18 would be my choice BUT that is mainly due to the extra capacity and the fact it is a fine saw and the customer service from the importer here is great, I am not sure what motor they spec in Europe and Northern Africa so the capacity would be a moot issue if the power to make use of it is not there. The N4400 gets a lot of love here on SMC since it's price point makes it what I consider a best buy in its capacity range for a European built saw and it gets specced with more horse power than it's competition. If we were talking about the "standard" B18, the N4400 and the S45N I would probably pick the N4400 based on price (here), horsepower and the fact all three saws are fine saws. I must say I may have some strange bias against the S45N and it may be due to the fact I see it so significantly overshadowed by the heavier Centauro built Minimax brothers. In any event I must make a strong point that all three of these saws are very similar in quality and capacity (assuming we are NOT talking about the higher capacity B18/18).

Back to the very base of your question weight is generally good since companies don't tend to give away steel but sometimes weight it just because of poor engineering, they have to add weight because the engineers weren't smart enough to get it right or any number of other non-positive reasons. I have been known to buy based on weight on occasion BUT it is only when almost every other factor I am looking out somes out even, once you reach a certain weight for a given size and capacity as long as the frame is stiff enough it likely won't make nearly as big a difference than many other factors. In the end machine weight is only a minor player in the big picture and I wouldn't devote any time fretting over weight. But, I would spend time considering what the weight might actually be doing, in other words I don't care if one saw weighs 50 kilos more than another if for instance the heavier saw can't tension as wide a blade as the lighter one (I am not talking published numbers, I am talking about reality).


Finally, I have had some experience with all of the saws you list save the Metabo. My experience with the ACM built saws on your list is based on re-badged machines available here that are NOT exactly the same saw, but very similar. I wouldn't mind owning any of these saws. I think you need to set weight aside for a while and try to evaluate each saw based on its strengths and weaknesses and how that matches with your planned usage, then balance this against your budget. All the other stuff besides weight is far more important that a number on a scale. I will say the choice between those saws could indeed be a tough one and although I can't speak to the Metabo From my point of view there isn't a dog in the bunch.

[Erik Loza]

...I want precision for ordinary straight and curved cuts. I want sturdiness to resaw lumber that is possibly hard.

Amin, any of the saws you mentioned should meet your needs just fine in regards to the precision cutting. I am not familiar with the Metabo, so cannot comment on it. I highlighted the red text because once we ask a bandsaw to move from more "standard" type work and into resawing, then things like weight (in particular, the flywheels..), frame rigidity, and motor power become more important. You already know this, of course.

Without knowing exactly what size and species (not sure what is common on your side of the world) you would like to use, I am going to assume we are talking about at least 8/4 stock of hardwood. I would suggest a 1.0" blade for that type of thing. Again, I am just generalizing. Yes, any of these saws probably could be made to handle that but some will definitely do it better than others.

Based on the list you have provided, I would exclude the Metabo, the Minimax S45N, and the N4400. The S45N and N4400 are well built but too light for purpose-resawing. The Agazzani and both ACM's would do fine and I might base my choice on budget, availability, and any other factors which could be important to you. My gut reaction is that the ACM ought to be the cheapest, so I might buy that one, but I have no idea how pricing is over there.

Out of curiosity, do you have a local Minimax dealer? Check out the S400P if so. That is "the" resawing machine (sold as the "MM16") for home shops over here in the States.

Best of luck in your search.

Erik Loza
Minimax USA

[Van Huskey]

Erik, while I certainly agree with dropping off the lighter saws for SERIOUS resawing especially with a feeder I am not so sure I would dismiss them out of hand for 10" or so hand feed resawing (with the correct blade). I would agree that the Centauro built MM16/S400P (I can't get used to the new nomenclature) would be an excellent choice probably better than any machine he listed. Then again I don't know his budget, the prices in North Africa and how much he is actually going to be resawing and in what stock. I suppose my point is I have done 12" resaws in hard maple with far less capable saws than the S45N and N4400 but the speed and ease weren't close to my MM20.

[Erik Loza]

No disagreement with any of that, Van. I once did a demo where I would resaw a 10" tall piece of maple on the S45N with 3/4" lenox Tri-master. It did fine but then, you jump over to the MM16 and it's like, "Whoa".

You what we really need to know?: What are the prices of these various saws over in the TS' country? I am really curious about that.

That will have a lot to do with all of it.

[David Kumm]

Weight is to how it aids resawing is only relevant in the frame and then is still not a substitute for engineering. Bandsaw weight from the table, wheels, and motor add up and help with other issues but weight alone as a number is less than perfect as a way to assess resaw value. The Centauro saws are known for resawing, the Aggis have been beefed up and the ACM heavy versions have the frame to resaw. At 24" most of the above saws will do whatever you need. At 20" or under the Centauro based MM are the resaw choices along with certain Laguna badged machines. There is no substitute for talking to both sales people and users. I'm a believer in buying a little larger in the bandsaw world as you never regret too big a saw but you will regret too big a blade on a saw. Dave

[Amin Djellaoui]

Thanks for all the information, Van. I edited my post and put the prices for you all.

Erik, we have people who import for ACIMALL, Italy. Poor communication.

[David Kumm]

Amin, here the ACM 500 and Star 500 are the same saw unless I'm out of date. What is the difference? Dave

[Van Huskey]

Amin, here the ACM 500 and Star 500 are the same saw unless I'm out of date. What is the difference? Dave

It seems with some snooping they are badged differently (One as an ACM and one as a Veba) and they appear to be specced very some probably slight differences, and I am guessing the weights are not accurate since I am finding different weights for each of them. In general though I think they share 99.99% of the same DNA.

Looking at the prices and just going on that group of saw, not knowing what else may be available, I would pick one of the two ACM saws but that is not knowing the price of the Agazzani which does have more capacity.

[Van Huskey]

No disagreement with any of that, Van. I once did a demo where I would resaw a 10" tall piece of maple on the S45N with 3/4" lenox Tri-master. It did fine but then, you jump over to the MM16 and it's like, "Whoa".

You what we really need to know?: What are the prices of these various saws over in the TS' country? I am really curious about that.

That will have a lot to do with all of it.

I also agree that the difference between the "light" Italian saws and the "medium" Italian saws like the Minimax SP line is substantial. There are VERY few saws I would trade my MM20 for, one would be a MM24 and the rest would be old iron saws BUT with at least 20" under the guards and nothing with bigger than 27" wheels (room) which makes that list VERY short indeed.

[David Kumm]

the weight difference threw me. One seems too heavy and one too light but it could be that one has spoked wheels and the other solid. Machine weights are notoriously inaccurate. they are good saws, just average resaws. Dave

[Van Huskey]

the weight difference threw me. One seems too heavy and one too light but it could be that one has spoked wheels and the other solid. Machine weights are notoriously inaccurate. Dave

That is what I was trying to track down since I know the "standard spec" ACM badged Star has very open spoked wheels, though when rebadged it often has heavy slotted wheels. It appears with some more looking the Veba rebadge does have the heavier "slotted" wheels and accounts for probably most, if not all, of the weight difference. That said the Veba at the same price seems the better saw than the Star although as far AFAIK the bones are indeed the same.

[Amin Djellaoui]

Amin, here the ACM 500 and Star 500 are the same saw unless I'm out of date. What is the difference? Dave

They are about the same, but the Veba has 170 mm more max. band length and it weighs 110 more pounds and that puzzles me!

[Van Huskey]

They are about the same, but the Veba has 170 mm more max. band length and it weighs 110 more pounds and that puzzles me!

Check the wheels, like I said it appears the Veba has almost slotted tires where the ACM badged saw has open spoked wheels.