It's been awhile since we had a bowl gouge thread, right? ...Right.

[Jeremy Leasure]

Okay, so I started out with a Pinnacle 3/8 bowl gouge. Frankly, it was pretty terrible. Would not hold an edge to save it's life. Actually, I have the whole Pinnacle 6 piece set. I didn't realize how nice decent steel could be until I picked up a Sorby 1/2" gouge. I thought I'd died and gone to bowl gouge heaven. When I finally talked myself into upgrading my lathe to a 3520B this January, I decided to step up to a larger gouge, and tried the Ellsworth Pro PM in 5/8". Now THAT was a gouge, I thought. Stayed sharp for what seemed forever, in comparison to the Sorby. The Pinnacle at this point may has well have been made from room temperature butter. A few months ago I picked up a 1/2" V profile from Doug, along with some spindle gouges and two handles (NICE handles, by the way). This seemed to hold an edge at least as well and possibly better than the Ellsworth, but to be honest it was difficult to make a comparison since there was something about it I just couldn't seem to get used to. I've been using it for roughing lately, trying to adjust. It may be that I'm simply used to the larger 5/8" Ellsworth, not sure.

After 200 or so roughouts, a couple dozen finished bowls and basically learning to sharpen decently well on the Ellsworth it's gettin' kinda' nubby. It's still more than long enough to be useful but it just doesn't feel quite right anymore on the deeper bowls.


So I guess what I'm looking for is some comparisons from people who've used the Pro PM Ellsworth and hopefully some of the other big names. Glaser, Thompson U profile, D-Way etc. Is there another step above, with similar handling? I'd really like to give everything a fair shake before I get too set in my ways, which is the reason I'm not just buying another Pro PM now that I've reigned in my heavy sharpening hand. Funny thing, I reminded myself I had the Sorby 1/2" today and decided to try grinding it to a standard grind. It felt like it was literally just melting away compared to the Powder Metallurgy tool. That is some really hard stuff.

[Reed Gray]

As far as the different steels go, I think there is very little difference in edge durability in the powder metal gouges. I have mostly Thompson, but have some D Way, 2 Glaser, a couple of the Oneway long lasting type steel ones, and an old one from Packard. The powder metal has an advantage. I have a friend who can tell the humidity and weather forecast by how his small myrtle wood bowls turn (700 to 800 a year for 18 or so years). He compared the D Way and Thompson, and said they are pretty much equal.

Other than that, the flute design and shape have way more to do with how the tools cut. I tend to hold my handles level, and prefer a more U shaped flute as opposed to the more V flutes. I also roll it on its side, with flutes at 75 to 90 degrees away from what I am cutting. I also push cut on both the outside and inside. I like Doug's U shaped gouges for this, and also his fluteless gouge. I even use a continental gouge for finish cuts on the outside which has a flute like this ). When you roll it onto its side, you have a high shear angle, and a large sweet spot for a nice peeling cut. Nice little twisted shavings come off. Your Ellsworth has a more U or C shaped flute compared to Doug's more V shape. Different animals. I like the V flutes for dropping the handle, and rolling the flute on its side till it starts to cut and use more of the wing for the cut. This tends to be more of a pull cut, but you can stand behind it and push as well. You can keep the flutes more up and cut up a tiny bit on the wing, but too high on the wing, it can become unbalanced, and it tips over into a catch. The more V flutes also work well for a scraping type of roughing cut. Flutes level, and rolled to 90 degrees, and not rubbing the bevel. If you try the bevel rubbing cut with the flutes level, and rolled onto its side, the V has a very small sweet spot for the high sheer angle.

I do think most turners, when turning the inside of the bowl tend to hold the tools more level, as the bowl rim is in the way for dropping the handles. Here, the more round nose gouges are my preference.

I do have one of the old HSS Ellsworth signature gouges, and seldom use it any more. I don't really find the swept back flutes very handy, when compared to what I can do with scrapers and my other gouges.

Most of the V flutes have some roundness in the bottom of the flute. I have seen some cheap V gouges that actually come to a point. Worthless as far as I am concerned. The nose is so pointy the only thing they are good for is playing mumbly peg.

I haven't tried the V 15, which is a step up from the V 10 which is what most of the Glaser and Thompson gouges are. More spendy, for sure, but I have no comparison of the two.

robo hippy

[Jeremy Leasure]

Thank you for that thoughtful response, Reed. That's pretty much exactly what I was looking for. I've never measured the angles on my gouges, usually just trying to maintain what I have visually. Recently I purchased a Oneway quick gage thing though, it has common measurements and angles for sorts of tools. My Ellsworth was dead on 60, and my old Sorby was around 45.

I've yet to have any person to person instruction, but I think I'm using a few of the cuts you describe. Lately on the inside of bowls, when I'm trying to refine the shape and clean things up I'll put the Ellsworth flute pointing basically straight up and cut with the left hand side of the nose of the gouge. This seems to let me get better curves and make the transition into the bottom fairly well. The transition still isn't something I'm great at, especially on steep sided bowls with flatter bottoms. I've been moving away from those lately, though. The wings on mine couldn't be any more ground back, I don't think.

[Reed Gray]

Jeremy,
If you go to You Tube and type in robo hippy, I have a couple of clips up that might help.

The 'dog bowl' style of bowl, with steep side walls, a sharp transition, and a flat bottom are difficult to do, mostly because it is very hard to get a smooth clean cut through the transition, and most tools just do not fit into that curve. I do like the style though as I eat with chop sticks a lot, and that steep wall is great for scooping things onto to get the last little bit that is impossible to chase down on a standard bowl.

Try more open forms with a smooth transition from the rim to the bottom of the bowl. Much easier to learn on. Turning the outside of a bowl is pretty simple, but the inside is a whole different animal. You have to rely on feeling the cut because you can't see it.

If you can find a near by club, do go. My biggest learning experience in the 15 plus years that I have been turning. Most clubs have mentors. I find the mentoring as much fun as the actual turning.

robo hippy

[Prashun Patel]

Jeremy, I have a Thompson 1/2" U gouge and a Thompson 5/8" V gouge. In general, people (including Doug) prefer the V profile. Not me. Like you, I've found the V profile harder to get used to. I'm unclear whether it's the profile or the size. It tends to get a little too aggressive for me, making furrows, and is prone to catches in deep bowls. I attribute all of this to user error. However, for me, the 1/2" U gouge is much friendlier. If I ever replace my 5/8" V, it'll be with a U profile.

I'll stick with Thompson's tools. They just work well for me.

[Reed Gray]

Prashun,
I would guess that when you are having problems with the V inside bowls, You have the flutes more up rather than rolled over on the side. If both sides of the V are into the wood at the same time, it gets very grabby. I roll the flutes over to between 45 and 90 degrees (all the way over on the side). Flutes too vertical, and the tool is unbalanced. The U shaped gouge is better on its side as well. Getting the sheer cut with the wing is more catch prone. If the cut is too aggressive, remember that your gas pedal is your handle hand, and you steer with your body movement/pivoting/shifting your weight from foot to foot.

robo hippy

[Prashun Patel]

Reed, this is great advice. I will experiment. I wish I could see a video of this. I do tend to roll the flute over as I go deeper into the bowl, but I bet I'm not doing it enough.

Not to hijack the thread, but the other thing I find difficult is getting a finish-quality cut with the gouge on many woods. I still get tiny grooves. And the weirdest thing I can't explain is that the gouge can get a tad chattery on the finish cuts. I thought at first this is due to vibration or movement of wet wood or both. However, it's sometimes worse near the middle of the bowl than near the lip, where both of these effects should be worst. I think now it's due to differences in the end grain/side grain densities that makes a less than perfectly sharp gouge chattery... Anyway, does that make sense? Sorry for the hijack.

[Reed Gray]

If by tiny grooves, you mean it looks like an old vinal record, then if you speed it up a bit and cut a bit slower, they go away. Some thing like cuts per inch showing. 20 cpi will show up as grooves. 100 cpi is almost invisible.

If the chattery part is on the inside of the bowl, mostly, then it is tool technique. There is always a tiny bit of bounce from the difference of cutting through end grain vs side grain, and also from cutting up hill vs down hill, or where the tear out shows up and where the cuts are clean. If you fight it, it gets worse. The one handed cut really helps you to learn to 'feel' the wood as it cuts, where if you are being heavy handed/white knuckle grip, you can't really feel what is going on. To practice this, turn the speed down, and do it with your left hand resting very lightly on the tool shaft, not the tool rest. Go for short distances first, and work your way up. Make sure that your tool rest extends an inch or 2 past where the end of the bowl is.

robo hippy

[Jeremy Leasure]

This thread can't be hijacked, I left the title ambiguous so it might be useful as a general thread :)

[Bill Wyko]

The flutes are made a couple different ways, one way is a ball grinder, the other is a diamond wheel. The diamond wheel is much more expensive but worth it IMHO. The ball can only take so much out so the results is a shallow flute unless you make multiple passes to the point that it's non profit. The wheel makes less heat and a deeper flute. IMHO gouges made with the wheel give you a better result. A shallow flute means less cutting edge, deeper flute, longer cutting edge. As most of you know, I'm a Glaser guy through & through. I have Thompson, Crown, Sorby & a couple others and out of all of them I like the Glaser handle, the metal and the overal feel better than any of my other tools. While the others are well know and good quality, My Glaser's keep an edge longer than my others and just work better for me.
http://pic80.picturetrail.com/VOL2109/11908737/24027560/401076814.jpg

[Reed Gray]

That depends Bill. If you are cutting with the nose of the gouge, rolled on its side, at a high shear angle, then the shallow flute has more cutting edge than a deeper flute would in the same orientation. If you drop the handle and cut more with the wings than the nose, then the wings have a bigger cutting surface, but not more than one of Doug's fluteless gouges, or a continental gouge.

robo hippy

[Michael Menzli]

To me $$ is a big factor. I can tell you I INSTANTLY shy away from gouge pricing no pun intended. I get the r&d behind some of this stuff but all this cutting edge mumbo jumbo for what I do is crazy. I vote for Doug..straight shooter, good price, and great product.

[Scott Hackler]

I started with Sorby and have gathered a few Thompson's. The quality in the steel between the two is very evident in the length that they hold an edge. Meaning... the harder steel of my Thompson's keep an edge a whole lot longer. But I bought V gouges from Doug and I think the difference between my Sorby's and the V gouges from Doug are the reason I still use my Sorby's a lot. I think, like Reed mentioned, we all have a style of turning and mine really works with more of a U shape (Sorby) than the V shape (Thompson). That being said, I am a fan of Doug's tools (and I just like him) so I will be buying some of his U flute gouges and I should be good to go!