General Woodturner's Finish?....

[Wally Dickerman]

I'm applying General WT finish for the first time. I'm doing an Ash burl vessel. The finish is fast drying as advertised. Too fast for me. It's drying as I apply it, which makes it difficult to get an even coat.

Anyone who's used it, what's your method? I'm using a soft cloth. Do you sand or use steel wool between coats?

Any help will be appreciated.

[Roger Chandler]

Wally,

I use a piece of old t-shirt......apply a couple of coats...heavy coats after a coat of shellac..........then a very light sanding, then another two coats..........usually takes about a minute or two between coats for drying and you can speed it up with a hair dryer. After about the 5th coat, then I go to 1000 grit or 2000 grit........just lightly to knock off any nibs...........the finish will look better a day later than it does off the lathe.

I finish on the lathe whenever possible.............I get better coverage that way with the turns at about 75 rpms. In Arizona where you live...........drying quick will not be a problems anyway.........so ...........disregard the hair dryer idea! :o

[Alan Trout]

Wally,

I suspect it is rather warm where your are. Say over 100 degrees. I have never applied it in that temperature so it may be difficult. I am fortunate that my shop is sort of air conditioned so when 100 I can keep my shop at about 78. Your outside temp may be your troubles.

I usually put on a couple of coats and then sand and then build for a few more and then sand. I keep going till I have the build or thickness I want. I just apply mine with a paper towel. I use it mostly on the insides of my vessels but have done a couple of small pieces on the exterior with no trouble. John K has been using it more for actually top coats than anyone else on this forum.

Alan

[Robert Henrickson]

I've used it in my basement workshop where the temperature stays around 70. It dries awfully fast even there (and I'm 20 miles from John Keeton). I have yet to get a decent final (or any other) coat. No coat went on nicely (paper towel or used t-shirt); it dries too fast to self-level. Most of what went on gets sanded off. For the time being, I've given up on it. I'd rather use lacquer, but sometimes better water resistance is needed. For the moment I'm back to using my supply of General Finishes High Performance waterbase.

[John Keeton]

Wally, I apply it with a folded piece of paper shop towel, and I like doing it outside in low humidity for fast drying. As Roger indicates, I usually use several base coats of shellac, rubbed back to wood with 00 and 0000 to fill the grain, and end up with one decent sealer coat of shellac that is buffed back with 0000. I would do this regardless of finish as it is just habit for me. Then, I apply several (5-7 coats of WTF as thick as I can without getting runs. I have done is on the lathe if the piece permits turning at about 50 rpm, but also off the lathe. After the initial coats, I level it with 600 and lay on a few more coats, sand with 600, then 1200, then 0000 and buff.

[Tom Winship]

John, I had mixed feelings when I used it. Some places did very well, others were pretty nibby. One thing I did notice is that sometime it appeared that it was like water when you first apply it (didn't appear to flow evenly although it looked like it leveled okay). Even after several coats are on.

[Bernie Weishapl]

Wally can't add much but John K.'s procedure is pretty much what I have used since I started using it a few months ago. I find if it is in the 90's it does dry extremely fast. So I do most of my finishing in the later evening or early morning when the temp's are around 65 to 70. I also put it on pretty heavy.

[Thomas Bennett]

Has anyone tried to spray on a good wet coat? I'm getting up my nerve to try. I'm wondering if it will level out. Anyone????

[Bernie Weishapl]

Thomas I have tried it once with a airbrush on some minibirdhouses. I did like how it sprayed and put on 12 coats. Will be trying it on some bigger projects.

[Dan Forman]

On one of the trade videos it suggests using a cotton cloth covered with nylon stocking material. Maybe that allows it to go on more evenly without forming ridges. I apply on the lathe, and always see spirals. I give 5 or six coats before leveling, starting with 400 grit. I don't have any nylons, so haven't tried that. It is supposed to spray nicely. I haven't done anything larger than a peppermill with it. It buffs better if left to cure for a week or so before buffing.

Dan

[Rick Markham]

I'm gonna chime in on this. I've tried it both ways, applying with cotton tshirt material (I hadn't heard of the stocking thing) and sprayed it. On smaller forms, with some practice, I've been pretty successful building up a pretty even coats with a small square of tshirt material. (I've been doing this on the lathe, at about 48 rpm) I recently turned a large form, that finishing really pushed the limits of my patience. I attempted the tshirt method and could get nothing but horribly uneven spirals. Long story short, It's my first dyed piece, and caused some streaking in the dye job, which then required sanding, redyeing... blah blah blah. (This piece literally has had at least 6 finishes on it.) I've learned a ton about this stuff (possibly at the expense of my sanity, or lack there of) because of this though.

Ok, being that I didn't want to streak the second dye job on the form, I decided to shoot it out of the airbrush. It does shoot nicely, but it is very deceptive, and is exceptionally easy to put WAY too much on. On a freshly dried coat (once the finish starts to build enough that it is starting to becoming the perfect high gloss finish) it gets very strange. It starts taking on a "orange peel" type texture, which will tempt you to spray more to even it out. Whoops:eek:... a run...:mad: (Needless to say I spent a WHOLE lot of time building finishes, then ruining the final coat.) Which resulted in many times of sanding the piece back and starting over. I have my suspicions that this may be caused by being the bottom half of the can of WTF (this is the 4th piece I've finished with it at this point) so the can has been open quite a bit and I think the solvent in it has partially evaporated, causing some of my troubles. (I have two more cans now, so I will be splitting these into glass jars, to try and preserve it's integrity longer. Consider this fair warning!!! The can is a pretty flimsy paint can, this stuff ain't cheap, so changing containers into something more permanent is a wise idea! ;)

I will report after I open a fresh can how it shoots. Needless to say I've had quite a bit of practice shooting this stuff and REPAIRING the finish (over and over and over and over.) <------ did you see that? that bold word there? (It's underlined too :eek:) Because that's the important word with this stuff. No matter how bad you screw up with this stuff... You CAN fix it!!! (Trust me, I've botched this last piece in some BIG WAYS! :o The most important thing that I've learned is when you screw it up, let the finish cure before trying to fix it. Walk away, patience is a virtue with Woodturners Finish. As this stuff shrinks it's consistency changes, (even the Orange peel pattern, if you leave it, will level its self if you allow it to fully shrink. Runs are even easier to fix, just spot sand them with 600 then 1200 and then buff. Rushing to sand back and build another coat, is just wasting time.

If you get frustrated, walk away for awhile! I think this is great stuff, shooting it is going to be the most efficient method of doing it, but (In my experience at least) it has a rather steep learning curve. It doesn't behave like other finishes when sprayed, it's visual behavior is deceptive!! it's COMPLETELY different from any other finish. If your laying on heavy coats via an airbrush, you MUST wait until it has shrunk substantially before applying the next coat. A sanding between coats helps too, but a thick coat of this stuff shrinks considerably, so there really isn't much to sand so minimal sanding is best.

Like I said, some of this may be due to my can having been used quite a bit, and the fact that I am a nOOB. But I'll get it mastered :cool:

[Robert Henrickson]

I think factors affecting results is the area that is being finished at one time, and shape. All of the pieces I have used WTF on have been larger, often dramatically so, than ones John typically turn, so he has less area for problems to occur (e.g.,already drying next to just applied)? My worst problems were with a large platter (14" diameter) -- extensive flat areas vs what you encounter on a hollowed vessel.

[Larry Pickering]

Wally, south Louisiana is not quite as hot as AZ, but yesterday our heat index was 106, I find it stays wetter, the heavier I soak my T- shirt.The first couple of coats I go real wet, then back off, to get the speed. As to Rick's reply, the finish dried in the lid grooves, you get a poor seal , then the water evaporates. I use a commercial can sealer and still get a poor seal.

[Prashun Patel]

John K: You are using 0000# steel wool under a waterbased finish? I thought that was a no-no. I've heard that rust can develop long term...?

Rick: In the flat world, most would never hand rub a waterbased finish (or shellac) over a waterbased dye, which would certainly cause lifting and streaking. I believe that'd be a prob with ANY waterbased finish - not just WTF. You can spray a seal coat of shellac in lieu of the WTF and then you can probably wipe on the WTF.

[Jon Nuckles]

Rick, I am humbled by your patience and persistence in working with the WTF. If I had experienced half of what you describe, the can, the piece, and anything else within arm's reach would have been thrown and likely stomped upon. You are a zen master!

[Lee Alkureishi]

Hi everyone,

not sure how much I can add to everyone else's comments, but I've been really pleased with the WTF.

I agree with Rick - it's easy to repair the finish from WTF.

I've applied it with both cotton and paper towel, with the lathe spinning at my lowest speed of 600rpm (I know, I know...). I prefer the t-shirt material, as the paper towel soaks up a lot more finish and actually dries/hardens while applying (Probably related to my too-fast lathe speed).

I've found that it doesn't matter much what the finish looks like while I'm applying it - it usually has ridges and nibs. I usually apply about 8 coats, and it dries as quickly as I can apply it. After leaving it for about 30 minutes, I hit it with a gray scotch-brite pad which takes care of the ridges, then buff using either my homemade beall-type buffing system (for small pieces), or on the lathe with a cylinder buff in a handheld drill (for bigger pieces).

Both ways, it's produced a flawless glossy finish better than any other type of finish I've tried (unless I buff too hard/too soon, in which case the finish will crack and crystallize). I've used this on a few pieces now, including small segmented bowls and a large segmented baseball bat.

All in all, it's a great product for me and one that I'll continue to use when I want that glossy look.

Thanks

[John Keeton]

John K: You are using 0000# steel wool under a waterbased finish? I thought that was a no-no. I've heard that rust can develop long term...?Just one of the many rules I break on a regular basis.;)

I believe the issues with steel wool are related more to using it on a more rough finish (as in flatwork where sanding normally stops at 220, and a finish is applied that raises the grain) and then applying water based finish. I can't imagine that there are any visible imbedded steel fibers in the finish that I am getting ready to buff as it has a fair sheen at that point anyway.

I do take caution to remove any dust and remnants, but good point to mention, though.

[Rick Markham]

Lee, I think that's the real important thing! You really can't let how it looks while your are building the coats bother you. Unfortunately that was a lesson my OCD had to learn during this process.

Jon, trust me, I wanted to smash and throw things several times during this adventure, but after the investment in time in this piece that wasn't at all a possibility. I've "mellowed" in my "advanced age":rolleyes: and generally don't let stuff like this bother me, I'm trying to be more "adult" about emotional responses to inanimate objects, though this one tried me. :D I've basically learned when I start to get frustrated it's time to walk away for awhile and let my head clear, less mistakes get made.

Prashun, I fully expected some running, infact, I got lots of streaking in the shellac coat too (I will spray the shellac next time too!) Lots of firsts in this one, and I don't often think things through as well as I should. (Nearly everything is fixable, so now it's "no big deal") I also use 0000# steel wool quite often with waterbased finishes on turnings, I'm like JK though, you really just have to be dilligent about blowing the piece off really really well with compressed air, or wiping it down with a clean cotton tshirt to make sure all the steel bits are gone. (I do a pretty in depth scrutinization to make sure there are no fibers caught in any open grain) So far no rust spots, or trapped fibers.

[Mike Cruz]

Wally, from my experience, the key to smooth coats with WTF is VERY thin coats. Don't apply this stuff thick and expect it to level out. It dries way too quickly for that. Apply just enough to wet the surface. Hence needing to put on 5-7 coats. Unlike poly, for example, where you can get by with 3.