Smallest chisel for dovetailing

[Bobby O'Neal]

What do most of you use for chopping out waste in dovetails, specifically chisel size?

I've found that cutting through dovetails in stock thinner than 3/4" my 1/8 chisel is to much for chopping out very thin pins. I've seen grinding as an option and am not opposed to it because it's a cheap WoodRiver chisel. Just wondering what others have and use.

[Allen Breinig]

Bobby
I have been using a 1/8 as my smallest. But I'm not a fan of the super narrow tails on most of my projects. Unless it gets down to very small drawers and thin material I keep them a little wider. However I wouldn't hesitate to grind a chisel down narrower to fit my needs on a job, that's what those cheaper chisels are for.
Allen

[Bobby O'Neal]

Thanks, Allen. I am really just learning the dovetailing process but this has been an early issue. I think the narrow pins look great (though probably not in everything) and are a challenge so I've been working on them. I'll likely wind up grinding this chisel to be thinner and see how much space that buys me.

[Jim Neeley]

My smallest is 1/8" but have been eyeing some of Blue Spruce's more narrow chisels both because some of my tail bases are too narrow and for cleaning up the cut. Blue Spruce makes them in 0.62" (1/16"), 0.48", 0.32" (1/32") and 0.24". I haven't moved on them yet bause of price (~$70 each). http://www.bluesprucetoolworks.com/cgi/commerce.cgi?search=action&category=MNCH

[Jessica Pierce-LaRose]

What about adjusting the slope of your dovetails to fit your tiniest chisel, whilst still getting both sloped cuts through one "entrance" (or whatever you call it when it's quite tight at the top.) Or does that monkey with the look you want too much?

Honestly - when cutting something real narrow like that - I almost think you could probably get by just sharpening the end of a nail to a chisel point or something - it seems like even a fairly dull point of that size sinks pretty well into the wood. I didn't realize how dull my 2mm chisel had gotten until I finally got around to sharpening it - it still cut into wood very well when given light taps. . . .

[Derek Cohen]

Hi Bobby

Perhaps it is the use of "chopping", but I must ask whether you are doing so? And at what distance from the baseline?

Although I do have, and occasionally use, a 1/16" chisel, I find a 1/8" sufficient for my needs. And I do make quite slim dovetails. To remove the waste on 1/4" thick boards and greater, I use a fretsaw. Then I pare the waste to the baseline (in thin slices). I do not chop it. Chopping can cause the wood to break off. If the wood is very thin, I will chop further away from the baseline, then pare it progressively to the baseline. In very narrow dovetails this would necessitate a narrower chisel.

I rarely use 8:1 as a ratio because it makes dovetails look like box joints. I widen the tails as they get shorter or slimmer. Entering into a 1" drawer front is different than entering into a 3/4" drawer front.

My most used chisels for dovetailing the tails are 1/8, 3/16 and 1/4. Then I have a 1/2 and a 3/4 for the pins.

Regards from Perth

Derek

[James Taglienti]

There is a 1/16 chisel at tools for working wood its buried in the bench chisels / round back dovetail chisels section and i think there is one from lee valley also. I have the round back one and it is very fragile but works great

[Bobby O'Neal]

What about adjusting the slope of your dovetails to fit your tiniest chisel, whilst still getting both sloped cuts through one "entrance" (or whatever you call it when it's quite tight at the top.) Or does that monkey with the look you want too much?

Honestly - when cutting something real narrow like that - I almost think you could probably get by just sharpening the end of a nail to a chisel point or something - it seems like even a fairly dull point of that size sinks pretty well into the wood. I didn't realize how dull my 2mm chisel had gotten until I finally got around to sharpening it - it still cut into wood very well when given light taps. . . .


I don't think adjusting the slope would bother me terribly. I am new enough to it that I haven't really developed an aesthetic preference. That will be worth a try.

[Bobby O'Neal]

Hi Bobby

Perhaps it is the use of "chopping", but I must ask whether you are doing so? And at what distance from the baseline?

Although I do have, and occasionally use, a 1/16" chisel, I find a 1/8" sufficient for my needs. And I do make quite slim dovetails. To remove the waste on 1/4" thick boards and greater, I use a fretsaw. Then I pare the waste to the baseline (in thin slices). I do not chop it. Chopping can cause the wood to break off. If the wood is very thin, I will chop further away from the baseline, then pare it progressively to the baseline. In very narrow dovetails this would necessitate a narrower chisel.

I rarely use 8:1 as a ratio because it makes dovetails look like box joints. I widen the tails as they get shorter or slimmer. Entering into a 1" drawer front is different than entering into a 3/4" drawer front.

My most used chisels for dovetailing the tails are 1/8, 3/16 and 1/4. Then I have a 1/2 and a 3/4 for the pins.

Regards from Perth

Derek


I also use the fret saw method for the majority of the waste removal and then move to a chisel. I do chop and will start right on the line unless I've left too much material behind after the fret saw. Haven't tried paring. I feel more accurate when chopping. I'll give it a go at paring too.

[Derek Cohen]

Hi Bobby

I have an article on dovetail baselines: http://www.inthewoodshop.com/Furniture/DovetailBaselines.html

There is another of dovetail techniques here: http://www.inthewoodshop.com/Furniture/MakingBetter%20Dovetails.html

Regards from Perth

Derek

[Bobby O'Neal]

Hi Bobby

I have an article on dovetail baselines: http://www.inthewoodshop.com/Furniture/DovetailBaselines.html

There is another of dovetail techniques here: http://www.inthewoodshop.com/Furniture/MakingBetter%20Dovetails.html

Regards from Perth

Derek



Very helpful stuff, Derek. Thank you.

[Dave Beauchesne]

Bobby:

FWIW, I have a 1.5 mm LV Japanese chisel that I use fairly often - I typpically cut fairly narrow pins. In addition, I use a Hock violin knife as they have a very fine point when clearing out the final ' crumbs ' .

I too have been eyeing up the Blue Spruce very narrow offerings - some day I will splurge.

The 3/16'' LN I own seems to be the go to size for most of my hand paring work - I see Derek lists that size also -

Good Luck!

Dave Beauchesne

[Derek Cohen]

One more thing ..

If you are making really skinny dovetails, where the ends are a saw kerf wide, take thee to Chris Vesper immediately and purchase one of his marking knives (I designed them but have no financial affiliation whatsoever). Look for the "Super Thin" Cohen Knife. It has a blade that is .55mm thick. It is the only blade that fits this type of dovetail. There are a number of excelent marking knives around (and our Dave Anderson make a terrific one), but none with as thin a blade.

http://www.inthewoodshop.com/ShopMadeTools/BuidingaBench4_html_m3639ed1d.jpg

Regards from Perth

Derek

[Sean Richards]

One more thing ..

If you are making really skinny dovetails, where the ends are a saw kerf wide, take thee to Chris Vesper immediately and purchase one of his marking knives (I designed them but have no financial affiliation whatsoever). Look for the "Super Thin" Cohen Knife. It has a blade that is .55mm thick. It is the only blade that fits this type of dovetail. There are a number of excelent marking knives around (and our Dave Anderson make a terrific one), but none with as thin a blade.
Derek

Or you could make one using an old hacksaw blade ...

[Derek Cohen]

Sean

No, a hacksaw blade will not be thin enough to enter a kerf-wide space to transfer marks. As the kerf is angled towards the diagonal (as in the dovetail ratio used), so the kerf becomes thinner. Try it out yourself.

Regards from Perth

Derek

[Jessica Pierce-LaRose]

I'll admit to having honed a bit of a point on a palette knife when I needed a thin knife to mark a weird spot (the "dogleg" of the palette knife was helpful too) Got the job done. Had to monkey with it a bit, so that the spring of it helped keep the back against the work when marking.

[Bobby O'Neal]

One more thing ..

If you are making really skinny dovetails, where the ends are a saw kerf wide, take thee to Chris Vesper immediately and purchase one of his marking knives (I designed them but have no financial affiliation whatsoever). Look for the "Super Thin" Cohen Knife. It has a blade that is .55mm thick. It is the only blade that fits this type of dovetail. There are a number of excelent marking knives around (and our Dave Anderson make a terrific one), but none with as thin a blade.

http://www.inthewoodshop.com/ShopMadeTools/BuidingaBench4_html_m3639ed1d.jpg

Regards from Perth

Derek


Now that looks helpful. Will have to look into it.

[Sean Richards]

Sean

No, a hacksaw blade will not be thin enough to enter a kerf-wide space to transfer marks. As the kerf is angled towards the diagonal (as in the dovetail ratio used), so the kerf becomes thinner. Try it out yourself.

Regards from Perth

Derek

I have done this using a knife made from a 12" hacksaw blade and it was plenty thin enough. Maybe hacksaw blades are thicker in Australia?

[Jessica Pierce-LaRose]

I have done this using a knife made from a 12" hacksaw blade and it was plenty thin enough. Maybe hacksaw blades are thicker in Australia?

Would make sense - having worked their wood, I can't imagine how tough their metal is!

[Russell Sansom]

Renaissance era harpsichords need hundreds of miniature mortises. The keyboards require a quite thin mortise at the pivot point...narrower than 1/16". The plucking devices ( called "jacks") are the size of lollipop sticks and they also require two mortises each. On a 61-note French harpsichord ( with two keyboards and 3 sets of strings ), that's 488 mortises! I have gotten by with just two chisels over the years, one ground from a triangular file and one ground from a lathe tool.

1/4" HSS lathe tool stock is great for grinding your own miniature chisels. HSS grinds well. The square sides of the blank make a perfect reference while grinding . A 1/4" square shaft can easily be glued into a 1/4" square hole chopped into the end of a handle. Hand forged mini chisels are a possibility but I found it difficult to control the metallurgy on such a small scale.

The big issue for me has always been sharpening and retaining the original cutting edge angle and avoiding a skew in the leading edge. It has worked to clamp the miniature chisel to a larger chunk of wood while sharpening to maintain the correct angle.