PDA

View Full Version : Plastics going up!



Martin Boekers
05-22-2012, 12:25 PM
Just got an email from JDS, an advance notice that IPI & Rowmark prices are taking a jump in a week
or so. JDS is nice though to give an advance warning, like they did with magnets a while back.

Tim Bateson
05-22-2012, 1:35 PM
Grrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr :mad: Hit the roof yesterday when the postcard came in the mail. That's 4-5% less profit. Tried raising my prices when RowMark prices jumped last year - didn't go over so well. Too many people selling at a loss or at least making pennies on each sale.

Michael Hunter
05-22-2012, 1:50 PM
Couple of months back I had to pay 45% extra for LaserLights compared to previous orders.
If they go up again I will have to stop pushing labels : they were high profit but soon won't be worth doing. :(

Doug Griffith
05-22-2012, 2:04 PM
I meet with people high up in the chain at Spartech quite often. The price of all plastic (world wide) has been going up at a steep rate for almost 2 years now. Escalating raw material prices and low recycled feedstock caused by minimal production in our economy are major causes. There's not much we can do except pass the added costs on to our customers. It's not like they can go anywhere else and get a better deal. Everyone is affected. Manufacturers that don't raise their prices won't last that long.

Martin Boekers
05-22-2012, 2:18 PM
Haven't heard if acrylics are doing the same yet, only time will tell. I bought a few thousand magnets before
that increase hit, down to the last hundred, so with an added cost for those and now plastic, nametags will
have to go up. JDS provides a pretty good discount, but costs are rising, just getting ready to modify pricing
through out our inventory. Time to start selling more vinyl for signs than plastic, it may be cheaper to buy
aluminum.....

Rodne Gold
05-22-2012, 2:56 PM
It is cheaper here to buy 1mm thick engravers brass than Rowmark brushed gold black plastic.

Gary Hair
05-22-2012, 3:25 PM
Not too big of a deal - the cost of materials in a typical name badge or sign is such a small portion of the price that a 5% increase in cost is - at most - a .5% decrease in profit.

Martin Boekers
05-22-2012, 4:02 PM
Not too big of a deal - the cost of materials in a typical name badge or sign is such a small portion of the price that a 5% increase in cost is - at most - a .5% decrease in profit.

It all adds up, a few cents here or there, an extra $.75 for the magnet, when you do a few thousand nametags a year
it can make a difference. I find that when you quit worrying about the few cents here and there, eventually they add
up to dollars. Right now I have a handfull of 12x24 pieces going through, The the extra cost (when it happens) could
have bought me lunch. :)

Frank Corker
05-22-2012, 4:38 PM
We had a massive increase in the price of acrylic. I have it from a valid informant, the cause is.... flat screen TV's. They are using acrylic and now they realise they can fetch a higher price and people will pay.

vic casware
05-22-2012, 6:50 PM
Just wondering what you all pay for a sheet of LaserMax 1/16? I pay $88.00 +freight

Just a side note I have old invoices 20 years + that show engraving prices for labels have dropped. 1990 3'x1' label ''Main Switch DB6'' $3.00
today $2.50.
Trophies are the same, figure on a base engraved $12.00 in 1990. Now $10.00 (if your lucky)

Joe Pelonio
05-22-2012, 9:23 PM
Here it's $71 for one, but good quantity discounts, so 2 is $66 ea, 20+ down to $51. How about !/16" Clear acrylic? I paid $130 the other day for 20 sheets 12"x24" (Extruded), and $408 for a 4'x8' sheet of 1/4" black cut to 12'x24" pieces. That's almost double what it was back about 2006.

Gary Hair
05-22-2012, 9:25 PM
It all adds up, a few cents here or there, an extra $.75 for the magnet, when you do a few thousand nametags a year
it can make a difference. I find that when you quit worrying about the few cents here and there, eventually they add
up to dollars. Right now I have a handfull of 12x24 pieces going through, The the extra cost (when it happens) could
have bought me lunch. :)

I think it mostly depends on your prices for name badges. My customer base is used to pretty high prices so that lunch would have to be pretty cheap for me... An average name badge gets me about $10, some a little more, with quantities a little less. Considering my cost for the rowmark for a 2" x 3" badge is 1.08 and a 5% increase would bump that to 1.14 (rounded up a bit), I'm not going to lose sleep over a nickel when I sell it for $10. I completely understand that in 1,000's it adds up but I can't control the cost, only my price.

Gary

Gary Hair
05-22-2012, 9:26 PM
Just wondering what you all pay for a sheet of LaserMax 1/16? I pay $88.00 +freight

I just bought a 1/2 sheet of LM92240x and it was $26.44 - it's from a local source so no shipping.

Rodne Gold
05-23-2012, 2:20 AM
I Import my own stiock from source manufacturers in China (it's as good if not better than what i get locally)
I pay between $8 and $12 a 1200mm x 600mm sheet of laserable laminate ( 48x24") depending on finish etc. Works out at worst to $40 a sq meter or $4 a sq ft. Was previously paying $90 a sheet for Rowmark.
I pay $29 a sheet of 3mm clear acrylic (1/8th) the sheet size is 1880 x 1220 (72x48) - works out to $13 per sq meter or around $1.30 per sq ft. We have a local acrylic fabricating plant , but their prices are crazy, sometimes up to $66 per sq meter or $6.6 per sq ft!!!!! and worse still , their quality is dreadful. We have to accept a + or - 20% thickness variation on a 3m x 2m sheet , ie 3mm can be 2.4mm to 3.6 mm over a sheet , impossible to fabricate stuff with those tolerances.
It is worth my while to import my stuff as I used at least 5-6 tons of acrylic last year and also used about 900 sheets of engraving lams.
Frank , not sure why your acrylic has gone up , I have bought from source for almost 2 yrs and no prices have gone up , my last order for a fair amount was 2 weeks ago and the prices were the same I paid last May.....

Paul Phillips
05-23-2012, 2:17 PM
I pay $54.88 per sheet on LaserMax from Johnson Plastics. It never hurts to ask your supplier for a break though. I had the new sales rep from Gravograph call me and offer me a discount on engraving supplies from what I pay through Johnson Plastics, but based on my previous experience with Gravograph and the fact that they take a day longer to get to CA. I called Johnson Plastics and talked to one of the owners and told him my situation, that I could get material cheaper from competition but would prefer to stay loyal to the great customer service I've gotten from JP and he agreed to match the discount, we save money and everyone's happy, except the "other guys". I do the same with my acrylic suppliers, one local and the other our sign supply, especially on large orders I will call both and ask, "how much can you beat their price by", I saved almost $100 per sheet on 20 sheets of 3/8" acrylic last week, that's a huge savings, every dollar counts. It pays to shop around!

Martin Boekers
05-23-2012, 2:42 PM
I pay $54.88 per sheet on LaserMax from Johnson Plastics. It never hurts to ask your supplier for a break though. I had the new sales rep from Gravograph call me and offer me a discount on engraving supplies from what I pay through Johnson Plastics, but based on my previous experience with Gravograph and the fact that they take a day longer to get to CA. I called Johnson Plastics and talked to one of the owners and told him my situation, that I could get material cheaper from competition but would prefer to stay loyal to the great customer service I've gotten from JP and he agreed to match the discount, we save money and everyone's happy, except the "other guys". I do the same with my acrylic suppliers, one local and the other our sign supply, especially on large orders I will call both and ask, "how much can you beat their price by", I saved almost $100 per sheet on 20 sheets of 3/8" acrylic last week, that's a huge savings, every dollar counts. It pays to shop around!


Many vendors discount already if you agree to purchase $5000 min a year from them some have shipping discounts also.
It never hurts to ask, the problem I find is if it isn't a standard agreement then they next time you order no one is a where
of it or they charge the straight price.


It is amazing how much a little bit here and there add up! Just like not drinking a soda or a bottle of water a day ($1)
a dollar a day doesn't sound like much but that's over $300 a year!

Joe Pelonio
05-23-2012, 8:29 PM
We are lucky to not have to pay shipping, with local sources for everything.

Scott Shepherd
05-24-2012, 8:22 AM
A lunch combo was $5 two years ago. Today, same combo, smaller portion is $7.50. It's everywhere around us, not just in plastic.

Martin Reynolds
05-27-2012, 7:35 PM
Joe, that sounds awful expensive. Why not use Delvies? They charge $16 for one piece of black acrylic 12x24, and they have reaks for quantities or whole sheets. Our local plastics distributor can be cheaper, if they have the material that we want.

Sam Edog
05-27-2012, 8:19 PM
Wow $2.50 for a 3" x 1" engraved lasermax plate, you are in the wrong industry with those prices you would be the cheapest in the southern hemisphere, I left the engraving market a few years ago because everyone had the attitude that to make a dollar you had to be the cheapest on the market and when that happens you go backwards as you have demonstrated with your 1990 and now scenario, have your rates, power lease etc decreased by 16.67% ($3.00 now $2.50) I would think not, you look like you are running good quality "expensive" machines run them as a business not a hobby.
If all your overheads have increased in the last 20 years so should your sell price as your true profit margin decreases with every increase in your overheads, your accountant can't be much good if he is not advising you in the right direction
I would suggest a change in direction as I did and have never looked back. (now wholesale supply in the service industry - dollar goes down price goes up, never had a complaint) The guy I sold my business to regularly increases his prices to
me and I don't have a problem with that as this is passed on anyway PS. he gets over $4.30 plus tax for the same size label ($7.50 for a one off) and sells thousands of them all over the country to various manufacturers.
Good Luck
Sam.

Martin Boekers
05-27-2012, 8:50 PM
Wow $2.50 for a 3" x 1" engraved lasermax plate, you are in the wrong industry with those prices you would be the cheapest in the southern hemisphere, I left the engraving market a few years ago because everyone had the attitude that to make a dollar you had to be the cheapest on the market and when that happens you go backwards as you have demonstrated with your 1990 and now scenario, have your rates, power lea
Sam.

He must be talking quantities at that price, if you figure initial contact time, engraving time and set up plus the time it takes
when they pick up the order your talking 10-15 minutes for one ups. You couldn't stay in business at that price. Quantities are a
whole different ballgame. My brother owns a screen business doing alum plates for the appliance industry/ he may only get
$.50 - $.75 a plate, but he does a thousands at a time, plus he gets a set-up fee.

Ross Moshinsky
05-27-2012, 8:52 PM
Wow $2.50 for a 3" x 1" engraved lasermax plate, you are in the wrong industry with those prices you would be the cheapest in the southern hemisphere, I left the engraving market a few years ago because everyone had the attitude that to make a dollar you had to be the cheapest on the market and when that happens you go backwards as you have demonstrated with your 1990 and now scenario, have your rates, power lease etc decreased by 16.67% ($3.00 now $2.50) I would think not, you look like you are running good quality "expensive" machines run them as a business not a hobby.
If all your overheads have increased in the last 20 years so should your sell price as your true profit margin decreases with every increase in your overheads, your accountant can't be much good if he is not advising you in the right direction
I would suggest a change in direction as I did and have never looked back. (now wholesale supply in the service industry - dollar goes down price goes up, never had a complaint) The guy I sold my business to regularly increases his prices to
me and I don't have a problem with that as this is passed on anyway PS. he gets over $4.30 plus tax for the same size label ($7.50 for a one off) and sells thousands of them all over the country to various manufacturers.
Good Luck
Sam.

Your 1990 vs 2012 comparison is very biased. In 1990, computers were horrible. The software was horrible. Everything was harder to do. The machines were also slower and when you figure in inflation, way more expensive. So to run a 3x1 tag in 1990 would have been expensive and more time consuming.

I agree people tend to under charge but in 1990 we were talking about a local market. You ordered from a catalog or from the local business. Now I can order something from China or Kentucky or 5 miles away. It makes competition far different. The fact is, it's cheaper to run a business in Kentucky than it is in the Northeast. I expect them to have lower costs. To suggest they are doing something wrong because they can charge less than me is not fair.

Run your numbers. Study your global and local competition. Price where you feel comfortable and hope everything works out for you. This isn't the easiest industry in the world by any means.

Sam Edog
05-29-2012, 1:33 AM
Hmmm biased no, using your analogy "computers were horrible. The software was horrible. Everything was harder to do" we should be paying less for everything cars, milk, bread engraving materials etc.
I was talking about a local market situation, I think the biggest threat to any business is not from international or even out of town genuine competitors but from back yard hobbyists as they have the mentality that "I don't have any overheads therefor I don't have to add this into my sell price" these are the guys that bring pricing down (they obviously live in a tent or a cave to not have any overheads), I have seen this all to often in all types of industry, some guy's are happy to plod away at home and make minimum wage others are more happy to charge realistic prices in the hope that if they grow to a point where they have to go into a factory or shop situation they have the pricing already set to absorb the overheads (electricity, rates, rent or mortgage wages, annual leave, public holidays, medical etc) instead of panicking when they have to increase the price by an excessive amount to make a dollar.
The engraving industry has always had people that are going to turn the market on its head and capture the whole market by under charging, thankfully they don't last that long but they do cause a lot of damage along the way and the honest have to try and justify the pricing in their wake.

In my opinion the guy that is now getting less for his manufactured product (was $3.00 in 1990 now $2.50 in 2012) is living in a fools paradise, he may well just need some honest advice but I suspect that after 22 years and accepting 16.67%
less for the same thing when all running costs have gone up considerably he just might be in the wrong industry (just a thought).

Doug Griffith
05-29-2012, 10:47 AM
I think the biggest threat to any business is not from international or even out of town genuine competitors but from back yard hobbyists as they have the mentality that "I don't have any overheads therefor I don't have to add this into my sell price"...

You may be able to apply this to laser engraving but to say "any business" (manufacturing) just doesn't work out. Hobbyists can't afford to automate, can't purchase materials in quantities to get price breaks much less have the cash flow, don't have the space to do assembly line production, have "civilian" shipping rates, the list goes on. Then there's the hourly wage in China.

Martin Boekers
05-29-2012, 10:55 AM
You may be able to apply this to laser engraving but to say "any business" (manufacturing) just doesn't work out. Hobbyists can't afford to automate, can't purchase materials in quantities to get price breaks much less have the cash flow, don't have the space to do assembly line production, have "civilian" shipping rates, the list goes on. Then there's the hourly wage in China.

Not to mention service and consistancy. I did/do commercial photography and can't tell you how many times
I was turned down for a job because, someone had a brother, cousin, nephew etc that takes pictures and can do
it for less....then a week or so before the project was do I got an emergency call, "you have to save me on this!"
The quality of time frame was not working out and I ended up getting the job with an extra "rush fee" to make
their suspense. Business owners have a different investment than the hobbist do, we have to it's our living.

vic casware
05-29-2012, 6:28 PM
I totally agree Sam, I was using those as examples only,
Of course business has changed since 1990, speed, range of materials etc
and of course more people, more customers, more work.
I think i was relating it more to industry mentality, possibly more here
in New Zealand. Dont get me wrong we are making a reasonable living here
my Dad and I are both fully qualified Engraving Tradesmen and
we have a great reputation. Most of my customers have been with us
since the beginning.
We too have back yard engravers, but sometimes it is the big guys causing price fluctuations.

Sam Edog
05-29-2012, 9:24 PM
I think we all might be on the same page here, there is nothing wrong with charging your worth if you think you are worth less charge less if you know you are the best in the industry charge accordingly,
I have never permanently lost a customer on price alone in any business I have run or owned over the years.
Don't get all hung up and twisted over what may or maybe the hourly rate in China, I doubt that any of us will ever have to compete head to head with the Chinese in the engraving market, when I order corporate gifts direct from China they charge for the engraving (very poor quality) and will only do bulk quantities, so I order extra unmarked or engraved and have my local guy engrave as required which is passed on to my customer, we all make a margin along the way.
You may lose a job but the customer always seems to come back, so he is the first one to receive the annual price increase, he may huff and puff but ask him if his prices drop each year or that his other suppliers annually pass on price drops.
Ask to see the price catalog from 1990 and compare to 2012 for your customers business (no matter what it is) I'll bet you wont see a 16.67% price reduction, that could be why he always drives the new cars and has a few dollars in his pocket.
It seems that in the engraving industry you have to spend a lot of money to keep up with technology if you want to keep in the forefront but no one wants to charge accordingly thus keeping true profit margins down
which means that you are going backwards, if you work out your true profit you may be shocked at where you have placed your worth.
I still can't get my calculator to work out how going from $3.00 to $2.50 is making profit, but then I still can't find the "any" key on my keyboard ;)

Steve Clarkson
05-31-2012, 6:50 AM
Looks like I just bought some "Lite" 1/8" thick acrylic........

I ordered a 4'x8' sheet of 1/8" thick extruded acrylic the other day.......now I know it's not exactly 1/8" thick, it's actually 3mm thick which is 0.118" thick............after cutting and stacking 18 circles of the old stuff and cutting and stacking 18 circles of this new sheet, it appeared that I was one short.......so I counted them again......yup 18 circles in both piles......but the new pile was ever so slightly shorter.

So I looked at the sticker on the new acrylic and it was listed as being 0.110" thick or 2.8mm...........

So it now appears that acrylic sheet manufacturers are taking tips from Dominos Sugar (selling 4lb bags of sugar instead of 5lbs) and ice cream manufacturers (do any of them sell a full gallon of ice cream any more?).

I guess they think that if they shave off 0.008" no one would notice............

Rodne Gold
05-31-2012, 7:58 AM
Acrylic is priced by the KG..so you were shortchanged....
I really hate going to the supermarket and seeing my fave whatever being packed in a smaller container , the saving is never really in the contents , cos they alway almost less than packaging costs, the REAL savings to the scum that subscribe to the "downsizing" model is the smaller package itself...
As to pricing , well that depends on your business model , area you in , market you in , so it's never a one size fits all.
The forum is also international , so $3 a tag might seem paltry to a US guy , whereas I in Africa think its overpriced if I figure in exchange rates.

Ross Moshinsky
05-31-2012, 8:27 AM
Acrylic is priced by the KG..so you were shortchanged....
I really hate going to the supermarket and seeing my fave whatever being packed in a smaller container , the saving is never really in the contents , cos they alway almost less than packaging costs, the REAL savings to the scum that subscribe to the "downsizing" model is the smaller package itself...
As to pricing , well that depends on your business model , area you in , market you in , so it's never a one size fits all.
The forum is also international , so $3 a tag might seem paltry to a US guy , whereas I in Africa think its overpriced if I figure in exchange rates.

It doesn't even take Africa to US to show the difference in pricing. The Northeast vs the Southeast you will see massive differences in prices for service related items. Cost of living is lower so labor rates are lower so prices are lower. It's very simple. That's why I think people who spend all their time focusing on the local competition are crazy. The competition 1000 miles away who have a nice internet site and can live comfortably on 20,000 less per year are far scarier to me. The internet is no longer the wild wild west. People are no longer terrified to buy from someone 1000 miles away.

Mike Null
05-31-2012, 10:26 AM
Well said! I imagine about 65% my business is local and the rest from around the country. But for things like name tags if I am not competitive on a local basis I can forget the order. For some strange reason St. Louis is dirt cheap on name tags and I know if I quote over $9 on my best tag I won't get the order.

But it easier to get a better buck from internet orders out of town.

Following your point, it seems that California name tag prices are 50% higher than here.