Building my own Kitchen Cabinets: Questions

[Jefferey Scott]

Hi everyone,

My wife and I are embarking on a kitchen remodel. We have priced kitchen cabinets and the quotes came in much higher than budget allows for the quality we want. I had toyed with the idea of building them myself but decided I couldn't because all I have is a two car garage shop and no place to store the cabinets during construction. Then I hit upon an idea that I wanted to ask all of you your opinions on. I am thinking of renting a POD or other mobile container and parking it in my driveway during construction. This could store the cabinets during the various phases of construction and also store materials in it as needed. It gets pretty hot in the summer here and I'm wondering whether you think that the heat or humidity would affect the wood to any degree? I'm not sure it would be much worse than if they were stored in my garage during construction. Can you see any pros or cons to my plan? The bottom line is I can build the kitchen we want within budget and not sacrifice quality.

Thanks!

Jeff

[Scott T Smith]

Jeff, occasionally you can find a place that rents surplus shipping containers (Conex boxes); and some of them have insulated containers (originally used to ship frozen food world wide). You might check to see if any of those are available; they will stay much cooler than a Pod.

[Thomas Bank]

Friends used a POD when they were moving cross town. First, the cost was pretty high - IIRC about $570 for the week and the move (less than twenty miles). Second, the construction of those things is almost disposable. I was more than a little concerned about it falling apart due to some of the heavy stuff they were moving in it.

I just had a similar situation where I had to move stuff out of the way for a couple days while doing some work. Had a friend who had an old U-Haul van he used to transport equipment for his band. For the cost of a restaurant gift card (at my discretion, not asked for by him) and some baked goods he had no problem loaning it to me for a week. It was sitting unused for him anyway. You might check with friends about enclosed trailers and such they might be willing to loan you.

[Jeff Heath]

The humidity surge can really cause problems for your cabinet build. My shop is climate controlled for a reason. In the summer, here in the midwest, the humidity changes can cause the MC of wood species to soar quite a bit. This causes problems with expansion, etc.... as well as finishing concerns when you are ready to do that.

Is there a place inside your house where you can store them temporarily up against a wall, or something. In my house, the dining room gets used quite sparingly.......just sayin'. Hate to see you go to all that work to save money, only to have it all get wrecked by a humidity and heat wave.

Jeff

[Peter Kelly]

I'd just cut all the parts for the boxes, make the doors, drawers, end panels, etc, do all your finishing and just leave everything unassembled until you're ready to install. A stack of cabinet parts takes up far less space this way.

Those POD things are over priced and not all that secure.

[John A langley]

Jeffrey - You have not said how extensive the remodle is. Sounds like you are planning on ripping everything apart and then building the cabinets. If we are not changing any walls or windows I would go ahead and build the cabinets before we do anything in the kitchen. Once I have the cabinets builts then we tear into the kitchen. We do mostly face frames so I can give you our process on that. First thing we build is the face frames, second thing we build is all the doors and drawer fronts. These are pretty easy to stdck against the wall in the garage. Then we will make the drawer boxes and cut out the boxes for the cabinets. AT thhis point you could remove all your uppers, built and reinstall your new uppers. And then likewise with the bases. If we get a set of kitchen cabinets done before the owner or builder is ready for them I put them in a local storage. I have not had any issues but I can't remember a set being there very long or during climate changes so to speak. If you were to have to build the cabinets either first or last and then store them I can't seeing that storing them in a storage space would hurt the boxes, the issue could be with the doors. You could always build the doors last I've seen contractors go in and rip a kitchen out and the poor home owner had to wait months for their cabinets. Not a good deal. Planning is the key. There are also some good companies out there that you could outsource your doors and drawers to and also a few that will do the face frames and cut the boxes for you. If you do the Euro in some parts of the country they are called full-access, it is even easier I have KCDW and would bbe willing to help you with your layout. Good luck with your endeavor.

[Lee Schierer]

I thought about building my own cabinets and decided not to. You need space to store the raw materials, Complete plans for each cabinet you plan to build in advance so as to not waste a lot of , lots of time to build and finish them and a place to store the completed cabinets until you are ready to install them. Our cabinets came prefinished with a better finish than I could apply myself and all I had to do was install them. Price wise, when I consider the hours I didn't spend making them I think the good quality cabinets we bought have held up as well as and I would have made. At the time we remodeled, I wasn't sure we would retire in this house so I didn't have the emotional investment in the cabinets either.

[Clint Olver]

I build cabinets in a 20' X 18' shop. I build all the doors and panels first, spray them and store them. Next, I build all the drawers, kick plates and trim, spray and stack them. Last, I cut all the cabinets parts, assemble, spray and stack them... or in your case, move them inside. You have to begin with a clean, organized, well thought-out shop. In Europe, there are professional cabinet shops half the size of yours. There is no reason you can't build your own cabinets.

C

[trevor adair]

I am currently doing my own kitchen with only a 2 car garage. I will not repeat the sage advice you have gotten already (frames doors etc first) I will describe my method it may help you a bit. First we are fortunate to have a formal dining room that gets used twice a year so that was immediately re-purposed as transitional storage. I was not replacing walls, however i did take out a bulkhead and raise the ceiling as well as take out a peninsula and replace it with an island. This allowed me to build the island first and concentrate on a small area of the island the one wall of cabinets (pantry, fridge surround top cabinet and one other side cabinet) The disruption was minimal because I did the island first and the stuff located in the peninsula was put there. I then moved onto areas where I could build in sections before I took out the old (uppers first along one wall then the other, followed by lowers etc.)

Because it is my house and not for a client I was able to piece it out like this and allowed me to take my time and although it looks weird mixing the new with the old I will be done very shortly with minimal interruption, and more importantly it kept the LOML happy. Nothing says redoing a kitchen requires ripping everything out at once and replacing it all at once, it may be preferred but sometime you have to adapt

[Larry Prem]

I am with Clint on this. If you have the drive to finish the project, you will find the room to store the materials. The cabinets can be stacked to the ceiling in the garage. I'd worry more about getting the project completed in a reasonable amount of time.
Cutting the panels all at the same time before the boxes get assembled is key. Moving full sheets in a cramped shop is no-fun.

Just do it.

[Jefferey Scott]

I am with Clint on this. If you have the drive to finish the project, you will find the room to store the materials. The cabinets can be stacked to the ceiling in the garage. I'd worry more about getting the project completed in a reasonable amount of time.
Cutting the panels all at the same time before the boxes get assembled is key. Moving full sheets in a cramped shop is no-fun.

Just do it.

Thanks for the encouragement everyone. I definitely have the drive to see it through. I know I can build what I want, the way I want it will just take a little longer. I can store drawers and doors inside and maybe boxes in a Conex container which I got a quote of $115 a month for. I guess where there's a will, there's a way and there's a reason I have all these tools.

[Bruce Wrenn]

If you don't have a copy of Danny Proulx's book "Making Your Own Kitchen Cabinets," I suggest you get a copy. Build your boxes out of melamine, and use screws and butt joint to assemble them. (with melamine, you have no interior finishing. Only tack them together to verify your dimensions for face frames and doors. Remember that cabinets in the flat take up a lot less room. Build FF, doors, end caps, and drawer boxes. I would probably keep boxes in the flat until just before installation.

[Bob Frey]

If you have the desire it can certainly be done. I built our kitchen cabinets in my 14 x25 shop. Took almost a year to do in my spare time of some Sundays and some week nights. Cut all sheet goods and stack the components. I would build and assemble several upper cabinets or a single base unit at a time. I set up a 10x10 easy up tent with sides to use as a spray booth beside my shop to spray finish all my completed assemblies (or components and parts as needed). I would stack all the complete finished cabinets and bases on my rear screened porch/patio and cover them with plastic. When ready to install I took a week off work and sent the wife and kids on a weeks vacation. Tore the entire kitchen out, remodeled, replumbed, installed new hurricane rated windows through block walls, rewired, drywalled including cieling, painted, then installed new tile floor, then put the new cabinets in. Then installed black granite tile counter tops and tiled the wall backsplashes up to the top cabinets. New appliances, sinks lighting etc were added. Wife and kids came back a week later to a completely new kitchen. They were all refresh and wondering what I did with all my spare time while they were gone.

[Terry Sparks]

Hi Jeff, I too have space problems with my garage shop and storage for a full complement of kitchen cabinets will not wotk for me either. I'm in the planning stage of building my cabinets and in figuring out how best to deal with this, I just decided to build a section of boxes, doors and shelves at a time, install them and then start building another section and so forth. I'm going to end up with more of a modular type of cabinets but, that is something I can live with.

[fRED mCnEILL]

When I redid our kitchen I built the carcasses and stored them in the living room. We seldom use it anyway and there was lots of room.

[frank shic]

If you don't have a copy of Danny Proulx's book "Making Your Own Kitchen Cabinets," I suggest you get a copy. Build your boxes out of melamine, and use screws and butt joint to assemble them. (with melamine, you have no interior finishing. Only tack them together to verify your dimensions for face frames and doors. Remember that cabinets in the flat take up a lot less room. Build FF, doors, end caps, and drawer boxes. I would probably keep boxes in the flat until just before installation.

this is one of the best books for beginning cabinetmakers just PLEASE don't use slab door and drawer fronts or else you'd be better off just buying the RTA cabs you can find at home depot. have you looked at the ikea kitchen cabinets? they're another great alternative.

[David Giles]

There are plenty of ways to store completed cabinet boxes within a small home. One can become a slightly high coffee table. Four of them plus two interior doors make a nice, flat dining room table. And 6-8 of them plus a mattress make a great bed with accessible storage. A good interior designer can provide even more creative uses for your specific decorating needs.

[Paul Wunder]

Have you thought of making the cases "ready to assemble" using connectors such as Confirmat screws. This method will produce very strong cabinets and significantly reduce the required storage space since each cabinet will simply be a stack of parts until you need to assemble them one at a time for installation Another option would be to buy RTA cabinet cases from IKEA or elsewhere and build your own doors. IKEA makes some high quality, pre-finished cases. A sawmill creek search will find a number of positive discussions using the IKEA method

[Mike Goetzke]

I'm putting the finishing touches on our kitchen (house) remodel. I built all the cabinets in our two car garage. What I did was:


1) take an old cabinet section that was about 7' long and moved it to the adjacent living room to store pots/pans and rest the micro etc. on top.
2) I bought a cheap metal shelf rack for all of the panty items.
3) I cut the countertop that had the sink in it to allow about 2-1/2" of extra counter on each side. I let it sit on the old cabinet till I finished the new ones.
4) Our oven was in a spot so that it could be used throughout the construction.
5) Use our 6' long folding table for bread etc.

I just built the cabinets in phases and stored them in the living room for a short time before installing them. Wasn't the best situation but I was able to afford making the boxes from 3/4" ply and use rough sawn hardwood for the faces/doors. You may look into having someone make the boxes and you make the FF and doors.


I should take a new picture because I'm applying backsplash tile right now:

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v212/mbg/Projects/Kitchen/Cabinets/IMG_2247.jpg

[Sam Murdoch]

Hi Jeff, I too have space problems with my garage shop and storage for a full complement of kitchen cabinets will not wotk for me either. I'm in the planning stage of building my cabinets and in figuring out how best to deal with this, I just decided to build a section of boxes, doors and shelves at a time, install them and then start building another section and so forth. I'm going to end up with more of a modular type of cabinets but, that is something I can live with.

Terry - you might be the perfect candidate for these (Jeff too) - http://www.cabinotch.com/ I don't know the cost, but I'm guessing that they could be competitive when factoring the logistics, time, material and general household upheaval involved with building your own kitchen. I have NOT used these but not because of quality or money but because I don't build in such a modular fashion. I prefer attaching a fully assembled face frame to an entire run of cabinets rather than to each box or I build frameless. These cabinotch cabinets look like a good product though.

Meanwhile once you set up in your shop you can focus on the process, including set ups of your machines, to build just drawers or just doors without distractions. Building one cabinet with its own doors and/or drawers at a time will invariably lead to a lot of starts and stops of production that will result in mistakes (at the worst) or not quite right and inconsistent results (at the least). It is very difficult to stay focused when you are constantly needing to break down your set ups before you have truly completed one process.

[Paul Johnstone]

Hi I am doing a kitchen remodel right now too.
There's only minor changes to the layout (a pantry was ripped out and will be replaced with cabinets to gain more counter space).
Also the soffit above the cabinents was over 2' deep. That was changed to about 7"
I cut out the pantry, took down all the uppers, did the drywall work and put the uppers back in.
Right now, I am just building one cabinet at a time, and replacing the exisiting cabinets.
With the lowers, I will be able to reuse most of the existing countertop temporarily until all lowers are finished (then new countertop will be installed)
Not much storage is lost this way, and the mess is minimal.
For a hobbyist, I really recommend this way. A lot less stressful than ripping everything out and having no kitchen for an extended period of time.

Edit: Mike G, your kitchen looks awesome.. I hope mine comes out that good. Thanks for the pictures.

[Matt Meiser]

I did exactly what you propose. We actually used a "Mobile Attic" unit not a "PODS" unit and the Mobile Attic was a lot better constructed. The twist to my experience was that I was actually building my parents' kitchen for their house about 10 miles away. When the cabinets were complete and the contractor doing the remodel--it was a complete gut of the space with doors, windows, plumbing, and electrical moving--was ready to turn the space over to me for installation, we had the unit picked up and delivered to their house right outside the back door. It worked like a charm.

[Steve Griffin]

Rather than rent, how about purchase a small used trailer? Use it to acquire your materials, store materials, make dump runs and then stage cabinets. After the project, either keep it or sell it for about the same you bought it for.

[Neal Daughtry]

Check this out, this fellow explains how to build cabinets plain and simple. http://www.twistedknotwoodshop.com/CabinetMaking101.htm
It's how I build cabinets now and its quick, easy and the carcasses are strong. I build the faceframes flush with the carcass to enable sliding shelves to be easily installed.

[Jefferey Scott]

Rather than rent, how about purchase a small used trailer? Use it to acquire your materials, store materials, make dump runs and then stage cabinets. After the project, either keep it or sell it for about the same you bought it for.

Steve, thats a very good idea. I currently own a 5x8 enclosed trailer but maybe I could trade up for a larger one. If not the rental charges aren't all that bad for a container and I would still be way ahead budget wise.

Jeff

[Jefferey Scott]

How many of you guys build your face frames wider than the cabinet box? Is it really necessary to do it this way. I know I've seen it a lot, is it common practice?

[Matt Meiser]

I did. It helps account for any unevenness at the walls--your boxes can be slightly closer or further apart at the back without a gap between at the front. I used prefinished ply and pocket hole screws on the outside faces of the boxes. Attaching them was easy after they were finished--just glue, screw, and a damp sponge to quickly clean up any squeezout.

[frank shic]

How many of you guys build your face frames wider than the cabinet box? Is it really necessary to do it this way. I know I've seen it a lot, is it common practice?

on base cabinets i always build the cabinet sides to be flush with the face frame to make drawer slide installation easier. on upper cabinets i usually build them flush as well so that stuff doesn't get trapped behind the edge of the face frame. doing it this way gives you room to scribe as well.

[Troy Turner]

Jeff - Any chance of borrowing a friends garage :D

So you mentioned storage and the such, can you get a month to month on an actual storage unit? Sounds like you have a trailer to transport. They'd be secure, out of the way and if your budget allows, get a climate controlled one. Just some thoughts to throw at 'cha.

[Jim Matthews]

I have to wonder if there is a Craigslist advert (http://tulsa.craigslist.org/for/3006221630.html) to help you on your way...

If you bought the casework, and made new face frames/doors/drawer fronts to suit your decor you could spend time on the fun parts
and sub out the tedious cut and paste work to a manufacturer. Building with plywood can be satisfying, but it's the same steps again and again.

[Jefferey Scott]

I have to wonder if there is a Craigslist advert (http://tulsa.craigslist.org/for/3006221630.html) to help you on your way...

If you bought the casework, and made new face frames/doors/drawer fronts to suit your decor you could spend time on the fun parts
and sub out the tedious cut and paste work to a manufacturer. Building with plywood can be satisfying, but it's the same steps again and again.

Honesty, I would consider it all fun work. I'm of the mindset that I want to build everything, although I know subbing out some work would speed things up. I may still resort to that but for now I'm too stubborn!

[Pat Barry]

This is the opposite of what seems the traditional approach but is intriguing. Can you esplain why you do it in that sequence Clint? Thanks

[George wilmore]

I built my own kitchen cabinets 20+ years ago. I removed one wall of cabinets at a time. I saved the sink unit for last. This worked fine for me. I am getting ready to build new cabinets but i am going to build all the cabinets first then install them. I built a bigger garage with an upstairs that I can store things in.

[Jefferey Scott]

What do you guys normally make the width of your rails and stiles? In the past I've made mine 2 1/8". In this new kitchen we are going for a shaker style and the door and drawer rails and stiles will be 3" probably, I'm just wondering about the face frames and what you all do there.

Jeff

[frank shic]

i use 1 1/2" because that's what works with the kreg beaded face frame jig and the usual 2 3/8" wide stiles and rails for the doors and 1 3/8" rails for drawer fronts. since you're making them yourself, you can use whatever suits your fancy!

[John A langley]

Upper top rials 3 1/2 bottom 1 1/2
Bases top rials 2 1/4 mid & bottom 1 1/2
Stiles 2 corners 3 left side 3 3/4 right side
Door stiles & rials 2 1/2
Top drawer opening 5
Base FF height 30 1/2
TK 4 3/4 FF overlaps TK 3/4 total 34 1/2
Upper depth 12 3/4
Base 24
Upper height

[Matt Meiser]

Upper top rials 3 1/2 bottom 1 1/2...

This would make an awesome visual aid poster for my shop!

[frank shic]

that higher top rail is a good idea for crown molding installation. i'm going to use 6 1/2" openings for the first drawer on base cabinets. i've heard that it allows enough room for a larger raised panel instead of either a flat panel or one with just a tiny sliver of wood.

[John A langley]

Frank - I prefer to have extra inch and a half in the bottom opening Generally I make a flat slab drawer front. But if people want a panel in their drawer front, yes, I go to 6 1/2 inches. Its also harder to find roll out dash cans that fit in shorter heights. PS Is Walnut Creek anywhere near Auburn?

[John A langley]

Matt - Are you picking on the fact that I spelled rail wrong? It is called dyslexia

[Matt Meiser]

Matt - Are you picking on the fact that I spelled rail wrong? It is called dyslexia

No, I mean a drawing of an upper and lower cabinet with all those dimensions. Didn't even notice the misspelling.

[Sam Murdoch]

For this discussion about dimensioning - I typically maintain a 1-1/2" face frame face, so face frames behind crowns and other moldings or into corners are sized wider to reveal 1-1/2". When fitting into a wall I send the scribe stile at 2" and plan to get it down as close to 1-1/2" as the wall allows. All typical rules are subject to change of course depending on field conditions and/or client preference.

As for panels rails and stiles - 2-1/4" wide is my typical. That dimension works well for most doors and drawer fronts. In the case of the kitchen shown in the attached sketches I will be using mostly 3-1/4" wide rails and stiles. That wider dimension works better in this big room space. As you can see the drawer rails are scaled down. Another detail that adds to the "custom" look of cabinetry is to have the bottom rail of the doors be an 1" taller than the upper rails. That's not a detail you will see in any "manufactured " kitchen but the added cost is negligible. Though I am not doing that in this kitchen

Here are a few prelim drawings of my next project. No uppers in this kitchen but these sketches show a hybrid style with face frame and frameless cabs. There is a sink side too!

232158 232159

[frank shic]

Frank - I prefer to have extra inch and a half in the bottom opening Generally I make a flat slab drawer front. But if people want a panel in their drawer front, yes, I go to 6 1/2 inches. Its also harder to find roll out dash cans that fit in shorter heights. PS Is Walnut Creek anywhere near Auburn?

i think it's about 2 1/2 hours away... i pass by there on the way to tahoe for snowboarding with my wife and girls and i had an "incident" in which i had to URGENTLY use a restroom in the town after drinking several milkshakes in an effort to finish off the ice cream we had bought for the weekend!

[Jefferey Scott]

For this discussion about dimensioning - I typically maintain a 1-1/2" face frame face, so face frames behind crowns and other moldings or into corners are sized wider to reveal 1-1/2". When fitting into a wall I send the scribe stile at 2" and plan to get it down as close to 1-1/2" as the wall allows. All typical rules are subject to change of course depending on field conditions and/or client preference.

As for panels rails and stiles - 2-1/4" wide is my typical. That dimension works well for most doors and drawer fronts. In the case of the kitchen shown in the attached sketches I will be using mostly 3-1/4" wide rails and stiles. That wider dimension works better in this big room space. As you can see the drawer rails are scaled down. Another detail that adds to the "custom" look of cabinetry is to have the bottom rail of the doors be an 1" taller than the upper rails. That's not a detail you will see in any "manufactured " kitchen but the added cost is negligible. Though I am not doing that in this kitchen

Here are a few prelim drawings of my next project. No uppers in this kitchen but these sketches show a hybrid style with face frame and frameless cabs. There is a sink side too!

232158 232159

Sam that looks like a good plan. Is that a blind corner cabinet? What wood are you going to use?

[Sam Murdoch]

Thanks Jeff, yeah this will be a nice, if unconventional kitchen. The blind corner will be a Hafele Magic Corner II accessible from the south elevation.
I was hoping to get some 1/4 sawn maple because of the extra wide rails and stiles but I may end up using poplar which is my typical paint grade
material. The panels will be MDF.

[frank shic]

Thanks Jeff, yeah this will be a nice, if unconventional kitchen. The blind corner will be a Hafele Magic Corner II accessible from the south elevation.
I was hoping to get some 1/4 sawn maple because of the extra wide rails and stiles but I may end up using poplar which is my typical paint grade
material. The panels will be MDF.

nice! those magic corners are a serious upgrade :)

[William C Rogers]

Hi Jeff, I am also building my kitchen cabinets and all cabinets for a new house not yet built. I have a very large workshop, but space is always a problem as it is full of tools. On of the things I am going to try, I bought a couple of the small movers dollys from HF. I intend to put a couple tied together under the base cabinets (stack an uppers on top) so I can move them around easily. You can get them for about $8 dollars with a coupon from some of the woodworking mags. I know your question is about space but thought I would share some of the other challenges such as finding material for the panels. I am using maple for the utility and finally found 1/4 maple with a mdf core for the panel about .240 which should fit fine. I am using mahogany for the kitchen and finally found 2 sided mahogany although the thickness is about .210. I am using the Sommerfeld tongue and groove method and it does make a very strong cabinet. Things to note are you will need european door hinges and face frame hinges depending on how you build. Also I have the video and it takes a little bit on how to use this method so the cabinet can be scribed to the wall. I have built one base cabinet as a learning process. Good thing as I have an end panel and face frame that isn't square. I understand the mistakes and have corrected them. I built a 4X8 table with aluminum angle all the way the around that is square and can now easily check the squareness of the face frame. I like the spray tent idea and will probably incorporate that. Hope this helps. As my cabinets will all be custom, to have them build would be very big $$ to get the quality I would want and believe this will be well worth it in that and satisfaction.

[Jefferey Scott]

Hi Jeff, I am also building my kitchen cabinets and all cabinets for a new house not yet built. I have a very large workshop, but space is always a problem as it is full of tools. On of the things I am going to try, I bought a couple of the small movers dollys from HF. I intend to put a couple tied together under the base cabinets (stack an uppers on top) so I can move them around easily. You can get them for about $8 dollars with a coupon from some of the woodworking mags. I know your question is about space but thought I would share some of the other challenges such as finding material for the panels. I am using maple for the utility and finally found 1/4 maple with a mdf core for the panel about .240 which should fit fine. I am using mahogany for the kitchen and finally found 2 sided mahogany although the thickness is about .210. I am using the Sommerfeld tongue and groove method and it does make a very strong cabinet. Things to note are you will need european door hinges and face frame hinges depending on how you build. Also I have the video and it takes a little bit on how to use this method so the cabinet can be scribed to the wall. I have built one base cabinet as a learning process. Good thing as I have an end panel and face frame that isn't square. I understand the mistakes and have corrected them. I built a 4X8 table with aluminum angle all the way the around that is square and can now easily check the squareness of the face frame. I like the spray tent idea and will probably incorporate that. Hope this helps. As my cabinets will all be custom, to have them build would be very big $$ to get the quality I would want and believe this will be well worth it in that and satisfaction.

Good luck with your kitchen William. Sounds like you have a handle on it. I will be renting an 8x20' container to store materials and finished cabinets in. It's the only way I can do it. My quote for cabinets came in at $23,000 bucks and I know I can build them for much less than half that, at least I'm pretty sure of that. Good idea on the aluminum on the assembly table, I may have to rig something up like that. As far as finishing, I bought a set of Fastcap 3rd hand poles which go floor to ceiling to hold up plastic sheeting, drywall, etc. and I'm going to tent a room in my garage when spraying the finish.

[Ron Natalie]

Not that I want to discourage you from doing it yourself, but you may wish to check around for small cabinet operations. When my builder told me that he had a custom cabinet maker I was quite surprised when the quote came in that was less than we could have ordered the stock Kitchencraft stuff for. Little two brothers in a prefab building down the road behind where they lived. Really neat operation. The shop was pretty specific for building cabinets and had some cool things (like a big tilted faceframe assembly table). I can see how they could really crank though things.

[frank shic]

don't forget to use refinished plywood or melamine. it will save you a ton of time finishing...

[Jefferey Scott]

don't forget to use refinished plywood or melamine. it will save you a ton of time finishing...

That's a problem, I can't find any pre-finished ply where I live. We generally are behind the curve when it comes to building materials. As far as melamine, I don't really care for it personally. I plan to use Target Coatings EM8000cv for all the cabinets and am going to score a new Fuji Mini Mite HVLP setup out of the deal! So I'm looking forward to that. My hardwood supplier has quoted me $49 a sheet for 3/4" A1 Maple domestic which I though was pretty good. Wish I could find the pre-finished stuff though...

[Matt Meiser]

They can't order it for you? I'd HIGHLY recommend doing what it takes to get it. I've done a bathroom cabinetry job for my master bath in non-prefinished and a whole kitchen in prefinished. The bathroom was a lot less boxes than the kitchen and was definitely a lot more finishing work. And the PF is more durable to boot.

[frank shic]

you will not be able to equal the baked on finish that the manufacturers put on their plywood and the last time i built an entire kitchen's worth of cabinets i kept thinking: why, oh why, did i not get the prefinished material? you'll be going batty after spraying the 35th piece of plywood! the target em8000 will work though although hvlp isn't exactly production speed equipment...

[Jefferey Scott]

They can't order it for you? I'd HIGHLY recommend doing what it takes to get it. I've done a bathroom cabinetry job for my master bath in non-prefinished and a whole kitchen in prefinished. The bathroom was a lot less boxes than the kitchen and was definitely a lot more finishing work. And the PF is more durable to boot.

I'll have to check around and see if anyone can order it and see what the price is going to be. I see your point though. Finishing isn't my favorite job.

[frank shic]

I'll have to check around and see if anyone can order it and see what the price is going to be. I see your point though. Finishing isn't my favorite job.

if there were a tool that could finish our "creations" with minimal fuss and mess and time i'm sure we'd all spring for it although i've recently discovered airless spraying and it is so insanely fast once you get the hang of it but spraying FLAT boring panels would be annoying. save all that work for the doors, drawer fronts and face frames ;)

[Sam Murdoch]

My hardwood supplier has quoted me $49 a sheet for 3/4" A1 Maple domestic which I though was pretty good. Wish I could find the pre-finished stuff though...

I am paying $ 78.62 (+/- $ 2.00 depending on quantity) per sheet of what is called C2 prefinished white maple. That's finished both sides. I think it is a Columbia product by I'm not sure anymore as it never comes with any markings, but I have been getting this particular product from my supplier for a least a dozen years. It is an excellent and great looking ply with a very durable finish. Is it worth $ 30.00 per sheet more than the A1? You bet'cha! I can't produce a better finish but just as important, in my small shop, is the amount of time and logistical aggravation I avoid having to finish plywood boxes. So Jeff, I join the chorus of those encouraging you to find and use prefin.

[Jefferey Scott]

Anybody ever use Blum leg levelers on their cabinets? They look interesting...

[frank shic]

i use the camar titus leg levelers which are very similar. they work very well and allow you to get six cabinet sides from one sheet of standard plywood. danny proulx's book covers all the reasons for using them including increased yield from sheet stock, future access for plumbing or electrical, and a few others. i bore the hole so that one of the edges of the leveler is underneath the cabinet side to support it. i prefer the knock in version with the expanding dowel. after they're installed, you just have to dado the toe kick and clip it in place over the legs.

[Jefferey Scott]

Well I've done exhaustive checking and the only prefinished plywood I can get is birch and it's from China. Some places I called had never heard of prefinished plywood! Shows you how far behind the times we are here in the middle of the country. The good news is that Jeff Jewitt from Homestead finishing has a nice C.A.T. technologies HVLP gun recommended for me so I can spray all these cabinets I'm building. Anyone have a preference on gravity fed vs. pressure fed guns?

[John A langley]

Jeffery - You will love the CAT guns. Gravity fed is a lot easier to clean. Get the 3M cup system that is disposable The only problem with the gun is it is hard to get in tight places

[Don Jarvie]

Here's a few things to think about.

1. Make some plans or buy them. You need to lay out all your cabinets in the kitchen with the dimensions then make a full size drawing of for each style of cabinets (top, base, other sizes). The dimensions of the cabinets for the kitchen layout should be based on the face frames and not the cabinet themselves. If a cabinet is 24 wide this should be the face frame dimension. The cabinet itself you be 23 to 23 1/2 depending on how much room you want between cabinets. Develop a cut list for each cabinet or 1 list for all the same size cabinets.

2. To make it easy to finish the inside, cut all the parts, finish, then put together. Butt joints and screws will be the fastest. I use rabbits and dados because I tend to overkill. Face frames use biscuits to attach them. Also, make all of the same size cabinets at the same time like a production shop.

3. During the remodel make sure the floor and walls where the cabinets will go are square and level. Installation will be very easy. Also, use plywood instead of sheetrock behind the cabinets so you don't need to worry about hitting studs each time. As long as you hit 1 stud per top cabinet they'll hold.

4. Finally don't kill yourself making the cabinets themselves look pretty. Only thing people will see are the doors/draws, face frames and end pieces of the cabinets.

Good luck, I'm sure they'll come out great.

[Jefferey Scott]

All good points Don, thanks. I'm with you on the overkill, I use rabbits and dados too on my cabinets.

[Matt Meiser]

Even if it is overkill, it helps with assembly and it hides any chip-out in the cabinet floor piece.

[frank shic]

i recommend making limited runs like: cutting base cabinet parts, assembling them, moving them somewhere else and then cutting the upper cabinets, assembling them and moving them somewhere else so you don't end up with large piles of wood that are just begging to get knocked over. rabbets are not necessary. i dado the back and butt joint/screw everything else without glue. i have a bad tendency to forget to account for the rabbet in my measurements.

[Sam Murdoch]

i dado the back and butt joint/screw everything else without glue.

I completely agree that you are adding wayyyyyyyy to much work to kitchen cabinet building by using rabbets and dados. Think about how much weight is added to upper shelves full of dinnerware while the shelves are merely set on shelf pins. A free standing cabinet may warrant the joinery but kitchen cabinets that are all assembled together and secured to walls are part of a rigid system. Once installed they ain't goin' anywhere.

I take mine one more step past what Frank does as I use biscuits to locate horizontals to the sides (tried dominos but they are too exacting for this purpose), but like Frank - no glue - just screws. The biscuits allow me to do my layout work for a group of cabinets as one phase than come back to do assembly, which is at that point a rather mindless and peaceful process. The 1/2 backs are cut to fully overlay the 3/4" sides and attached with screws and crown staples. The overlay back helps to perfect the squareness of the cabinet. The crown staples are just a quick way of attaching at each corner. I follow up with screws - quite a few in the case of uppers being held to the walls by the backs.

[Jefferey Scott]

i recommend making limited runs like: cutting base cabinet parts, assembling them, moving them somewhere else and then cutting the upper cabinets, assembling them and moving them somewhere else so you don't end up with large piles of wood that are just begging to get knocked over. rabbets are not necessary. i dado the back and butt joint/screw everything else without glue. i have a bad tendency to forget to account for the rabbet in my measurements.

I plan to build the base cabinet boxes with face frames first, then the upper cabinet boxes with face frames, then drawers, doors, and finally trim. I will probably at least dado the backs in, as I'm using 1/2" for all the backs. Does anyone think I need to install nailing strips considering I'm using 1/2" for the backs or will that be sufficient to hang them with?

[frank shic]

you won't need nailers for 1/2" backs. i wouldn't dado for them, i'd just screw them on from the back like sam mentioned. using pneumatic nails or staples will speed up your assembly process and obviate the need for those annoying clamps. also don't forget to check for squarness before you mount the face frames.

[Jefferey Scott]

you won't need nailers for 1/2" backs. i wouldn't dado for them, i'd just screw them on from the back like sam mentioned. using pneumatic nails or staples will speed up your assembly process and obviate the need for those annoying clamps. also don't forget to check for squarness before you mount the face frames.

Actually I was planning on screwing the backs on so I could make them removable when finishing time comes. It's a lot easier to shoot a finish without the back on I've found. Once they have the finish applied I will add a little glue around the back and screw it on for good. I know this slows things down a bit, but it makes for a strong cabinet box I believe. :)

[frank shic]

if you ever feel insecure about whether or not you've built the box strong enough, go and take a look at some of the kraftmaid cabinets that are returned at home depot for a major confidence boost: 3/8" plywood that is hot glued and stapled! hard to beat their finishing though...

[Jefferey Scott]

if you ever feel insecure about whether or not you've built the box strong enough, go and take a look at some of the kraftmaid cabinets that are returned at home depot for a major confidence boost: 3/8" plywood that is hot glued and stapled! hard to beat their finishing though...

I would agree with you, especially on the finishing. I've been using Target Coatings products lately and love their durability and ease of spraying so I'm going to give the finish my best shot on this project. Along that line, does anyone finish the outside of the cabinet boxes or just the inside? I'm leaning towards spraying at least one coat on the outsides just to help seal the wood.

[Tom Hassad]

I was curious - how much money does one save in building kitchen cabinets vs. having them done by a contractor? I know it ranges but I just wanted a ballpark idea to get started thinking about whether to tackle a project like this and I would be asking for an estimate using decent materials - nothing really fancy but nothing cheap, either - just something middle of the road? I know size, species, cabinet hardware varies the costs so I am not looking for an it depends answer but a rough idea thanks - Tom.

[frank shic]

here in northern california i probably would have had to spend at least $20k on a kitchen that i built several years ago for around $10k. these were maple face frame cabinets with 3/4" plywood sides, dovetailed drawers (never again!) and raised panel drawer fronts and glass arched upper cabinet doors. it did take a while and it's not perfect, but i didn't have to deal with someone else's schedule and a stranger walking in and out of my house disrupting the entire family. the pride factor afterwards was priceless as well and the tools i acquired have continued to serve me well and i've improved my technique since the last time so i eagerly look forward to renovating my next kitchen!

[Greg Portland]

I was curious - how much money does one save in building kitchen cabinets vs. having them done by a contractor? I know it ranges but I just wanted a ballpark idea to get started thinking about whether to tackle a project like this and I would be asking for an estimate using decent materials - nothing really fancy but nothing cheap, either - just something middle of the road? I know size, species, cabinet hardware varies the costs so I am not looking for an it depends answer but a rough idea thanks - Tom.
Tom, my dad saved ~65% by ordering pre-finished cabinets and installing them himself. If he built the cabinets himself he would have saved about 40%. Yes, ordering the finished cabinets was much cheaper and they were very high quality (3/4" void-free ply, soft close hinges, full dovetailed drawers, etc.). Don't be fooled though, it take a lot of skill (or some skill and a lot of time :) ) to plan a kitchen & install it (cab install, trim work, counter tops, tile, etc.).

[frank shic]

greg's got a point. every time i actually start installing the cabinets, i'm amazed at how tricky it is to make square cabinets fit into uneven spaces and make it look good.

[Jim Matthews]

i think it's about 2 1/2 hours away... i pass by there on the way to tahoe for snowboarding with my wife and girls and i had an "incident" in which i had to URGENTLY use a restroom in the town after drinking several milkshakes in an effort to finish off the ice cream we had bought for the weekend!

I dunno which part of this to be most jealous; the predictable snow at Tahoe, the snowboarding or "the with my wife". On the flip side, I have two little boys, so things are likely less complicated at home.
My first (and last) ski trip with my wife involved a five hour drive to Jay peak, near the Canadian border. She grudgingly managed 90 minutes on the slope.

It was a very quiet drive home - without milkshakes.

[frank shic]

well, the first time i took her, i made the serious mistake of trying to teach her MYSELF. oh boy was that a painful experience laced with cursing, crying and the realization that $200 for private lessons is a bargain! boys pick up snowboarding much more quickly btw because of their intrinsically more reckless nature from what i've observed. five hours is a LOOOOOOOOOONG drive! i'll remember that the next time i'm falling asleep on the highway ;)

[Jefferey Scott]

Update: Well the city government has spoken and won't let me put a container in my driveway for more than 30 days and I would have to get a permit. This doesn't help me much so I may be forced to move some of my furniture out of my house and store it off site to make room for cabinet and material storage in my house during construction of the cabinets. It really sucks having no room to do anything. Either way, construction begins June 15th on 24 new cabinets. Adapt and overcome!

Jeff

[frank shic]

hope to see pics soon, jeff!

[Travis Fatzinger]

I was curious - how much money does one save in building kitchen cabinets vs. having them done by a contractor? I know it ranges but I just wanted a ballpark idea to get started thinking about whether to tackle a project like this and I would be asking for an estimate using decent materials - nothing really fancy but nothing cheap, either - just something middle of the road? I know size, species, cabinet hardware varies the costs so I am not looking for an it depends answer but a rough idea thanks - Tom.

We just got our quote from Lowe's. We have a small kitchen and didn't do anything to crazy. Although we have the upper cabinets going all the way to the ceiling which certainly added cost. They quoted $11,000 for the cherry cabinets. I just bought all the cherry I think I will need for $825. I'm not quite sure on the plywood costs, hinges, slides, finish, etc. But I guarantee it will be less than $11k.

[frank shic]

too cool! two kitchens in progress!!! hope to see results soon... in another 6-8 months lol

[Don Jarvie]

Just pile them up in various rooms until your done.

You could also make all the lowers, rip out the current lowers and put in the new ones. Then do the same with the top. It will be a few less cabinets in the house.

[Matt Meiser]

I've been thinking more about my own kitchen, I'm considering doing all the lowers first and then once they are in the flooring and counter people can do their thing while I build upper cabinets. That will cut the volume of what's in my shop by about 1/3 to 1/2 at any given time. It will make installing the uppers slightly harder. And I may build face frames and doors earlier but they take up relatively little space.

[Jefferey Scott]

Just pile them up in various rooms until your done.

That's the plan as of right now. My wife was surprisingly ok with this...hopefully she's ok with the new tools I'm getting for this project too!:D

[Jerome Stanek]

I would consider getting an enclosed trailer for this and when you are done you could sell it

[Jefferey Scott]

I would consider getting an enclosed trailer for this and when you are done you could sell it

Jerome, I have considered doing this. I currently own a 5x8' enclosed trailer which I've thought about trading up to a 7x16' but budget isn't going to allow that right now. I think I'll be ok on space as long as I can make enough room inside the house.

[Jefferey Scott]

Project Update: I found pre-finished maple ply! I am buying all my wood from a new wholesaler that opened recently in the area. Bought 10 sheets of pre-finished 3/4 in for $59 a sheet and 200 ft of 4/4 maple for $2.36 a bd ft. Not enough for the whole project, but enough to get started on it. I'm just stoked about finding pre-finished domestic maple and not having to finish all those cabinet interiors :)

[Matt Meiser]

WooHoo!!!

Thats a great price by the way. I pay about $65 and that's for seconds which might have light scratches and an occasional defect. The scratches are impossible to see in a finished cabinet and cutting around the defects isn't a problem. The on-grade stuff is $10 more and I don't trust that dealer as much.

[mreza Salav]

Is there a significant difference between birch pre-finished and maple pre-finished ply?
The wholesale supplier in our town (which also sells across Canada) is asking around $55 for pre-finished 3/4" Birch (and they are product of Canada) which I think is a great price
but I don't have any experience.

sorry for hijacking, just watching this thread as I will be in the same boat in about a year (building a house and intending to do the kitchen myself) so wondered if there is a real benefit to Maple for boxes.

[frank shic]

Project Update: I found pre-finished maple ply! I am buying all my wood from a new wholesaler that opened recently in the area. Bought 10 sheets of pre-finished 3/4 in for $59 a sheet and 200 ft of 4/4 maple for $2.36 a bd ft. Not enough for the whole project, but enough to get started on it. I'm just stoked about finding pre-finished domestic maple and not having to finish all those cabinet interiors :)

woohoo!!! now you're off and running... i'm almost getting teary-eyed lol. jeff, once you start cutting the cabinet parts, make sure you have some kind of system to organize them all either a sticky or a number written on the unfinished edge. it can get a little confusing if you just stack the parts randomly.

[Carl Beckett]

I would consider getting an enclosed trailer for this and when you are done you could sell it

Now that I think about it, I have a shed project on the list. Maybe I should do the shed first as a place to stage the cabinets.

[Jefferey Scott]

Is there a significant difference between birch pre-finished and maple pre-finished ply?
The wholesale supplier in our town (which also sells across Canada) is asking around $55 for pre-finished 3/4" Birch (and they are product of Canada) which I think is a great price
but I don't have any experience.

sorry for hijacking, just watching this thread as I will be in the same boat in about a year (building a house and intending to do the kitchen myself) so wondered if there is a real benefit to Maple for boxes.

Mreza,

The birch my supplier had was cheaper than the maple, but it was imported (China). I think it's all a matter of taste and budget, I don't think there's a significant difference between maple and birch in appearance, just make sure you know whether you are buying foreign or domestic, whichever you prefer.

Here's a quick picture of me planing all 200 bd. ft. of maple down to 3/4" today.
234643

[Matt Meiser]

If you prefer delaminating, warping ply with thinner-than-paper veneer, then the imported stuff is just your thing.

Thats why I prefer one of the local dealers over the other. One only will carry domestic (other than Baltic birch, obviously) while the other carries both and doesn't always know if something is imported (or maybe won't say which is worse.)

[Jefferey Scott]

If you prefer delaminating, warping ply with thinner-than-paper veneer, then the imported stuff is just your thing.
That's why I stay away from the imported stuff. I had a bad experience once. But some people seem to like the stuff and must have better luck with it than me.

[Jefferey Scott]

Does anyone have an opinion on using Hard maple vs Soft maple for the face frames, drawer fronts, and doors? Which do you prefer and why?

[Don Jarvie]

Soft Maple is more figured than regular hard maple so it depends on the look your going for. Both are hard with hard maple being slightly harder but the soft maple isn't soft like pine.

I see the picture of you planing maple, which kind did you buy?

[Jefferey Scott]

Soft Maple is more figured than regular hard maple so it depends on the look your going for. Both are hard with hard maple being slightly harder but the soft maple isn't soft like pine.

I see the picture of you planing maple, which kind did you buy?

Don, I bought soft maple. My thinking was that it would absorb the Transtint dye I'm going to color it with better. Plus it's plenty hard enough for my project. It has a fair amount of figure which I like the look of, I think it adds character and visual interest.

[Don Jarvie]

Soft maple will look nice. As you probably know it has a few more knots to deal with.

[Jefferey Scott]

Well I started to cut up that beautiful pre-finished maple ply today on the tablesaw and learned very quickly from the splintered cross cuts that I need a zero clearance insert for the PM66. Off to Amazon and a few clicks later I purchased 2 Leecraft inserts, one for the combination blade and one for the dado set. Hopefully that will solve my problem. I will say that the plywood I got does have a decently thick outer veneer which I'm pleased with. Have any of you guys used these inserts on your tablesaw?

[Matt Meiser]

The ZCI will help, but I wouldn't use a combination blade to cut it. A good high ATB (mine is a Forest) will cut like a dream.

I like the Leecraft inserts. Sure you can make them for pennies, but the Leecraft ones are so nice I just spend the money. They last a long time--unless "your friend" tries to tilt the saw with the insert in, bends the blade, and snaps the insert. But I don't know anyone who's done that :rolleyes:

[Jefferey Scott]

I think I misspoke on my blade. I have a Forrest Woodworker II 40 tooth blade which I think is an ATB. The way I got around it last night was to cut all the pieces to finished dimensions with my TS55 setup. It cuts like a dream. I usually use the Festool for cutting slightly oversize, then take it to the tablesaw for final dimensioning. I find this workflow is easier on my back. Sorry to hear about "your friend" and what he did to your blade/insert Matt. :)

I'm thinking about starting a new thread during the construction of the cabinets if anybody's interested in seeing the process? I would post it in the "Projects" forum I guess. Anybody want to see pictures along the way?

Jeff

[Matt Meiser]

OK, I was picturing a 50T combo blade. But still, I occasionally do a quick cut with my WWII and quickly remember why I spent the money for the special sheet goods blade (also a Forest). But the TS55 does a superb job too.

I did a similar thread on my parents' kitchen and people loved it. Go for it! It ended up being kind of like a blog.

[Jefferey Scott]

Matt, Is this (http://www.amazon.com/Forrest-DH10807125-Duraline-10-Inch-Melamine/dp/B0009H5RDE/ref=sr_1_3?ie=UTF8&qid=1340191779&sr=8-3&keywords=Duraline+HI+A%2FT) the blade you have? I'm down with buying one if you think it will really help?

[Don Jarvie]

I use a WWII and it works fine. The zero clearance insert will help alot. I made mine out of MDF for my 66 and do the job.

One thing I have learned is to buy high quality plywood if you are making something nice or for someone. The HD crap will chip out badly while the good stuff will be minimum.

[Matt Meiser]

Yes, that's the one I have. They've increased in price a lot since I got mine. I think I paid $100 at a show.

[Jefferey Scott]

Well I decided to take the plunge on a new blade. I figured I'm going to be cutting an awful lot of this plywood, I might as well get the best blade I can find to do the job. I only wish I could have got mine for what you paid Matt. :) Plus my WWII is starting to get a bit dull. I think I'm going to have to send it in for a sharpening pretty soon.

[Janne Reeves]

Has anyone tried making ready to assemble kitchen cabinets??