a size three, or not a size three???

[steven c newman]

i have two planes, and a mystery. It seems that a Stanley Defiance #3 is NOT the same size as a Union #3c. Stanley defiance iron is 1-3/4" wide, the Union is 2' wide. Kind of makes the bases a bit different as well. The stanley Defiance is also 1/4" shorter in length.

So, do I have a pair of Number 3s? or is that Union plane something else? :confused:

[Mike Henderson]

I don't have an answer for you to your specific question but I'll pass along something about the Defiance planes. You may already know this, but the Defiance line of Stanley planes was not their best planes. If you're going to spend any amount of time fettling the Defiance, it might be better to get a Stanley Bailey #3. The Bailey #3 iron is 1 3/4" wide.

Mike

[Archie England]

I don't have an answer for you to your specific question but I'll pass along something about the Defiance planes. You may already know this, but the Defiance line of Stanley planes was not their best planes. If you're going to spend any amount of time fettling the Defiance, it might be better to get a Stanley Bailey #3. The Bailey #3 iron is 1 3/4" wide.

Mike

+1 on What Mike has said!!!! I learned the hard way. Some here have good words about rehabbing a Defiance or a Handyman, but they've got a lot more to overcome! Now, the Union OTOH should be a quality user.

[steven c newman]

I have both all fettle up and making nice thin shavings, plus a Handyman #4 doing the paper thin shavings. I noticed the difference when i sat the two next to each other, made the Union #3c look FAT! Short and fat, like danny DeVito.....


The defiance #3 was an inherited item, the Union was a $5 rust bucket rehab, and that handyman #1204 was an $8 rehab. All three will make nice thin shavings in use.

[Archie England]

Congrats! cause, that's a gloat!!!!

[lowell holmes]

I can't speak about the original post, but I have a Canadian #3 Bailey that apparently was a school plane.

I have Bedrocks with Hock Irons and numerous LV and LN planes. I use and treasure all of them, but often the #3 Bailey with it's Stanley replacement iron is the plane I pick up. It does a good job making thin shavings and I like the feel of it.

[steven c newman]

Well, does all of this mean that the Union is a "weird" size 3, a small size 4, or some sort of fractionial plane? Union does have a 2" wide iron, like the #4s, but the length is a might short, more like a #3. It does have all those grooves along it's sole, amking it a "c" type of plane. Both also have the "keyhole' lever cap style, except that the Union has the letters UNION cast into it's lever cap. The defiance has a tapered iron, nice and thick down at the cutting edge. just wondering, is all.....

[Jim Koepke]

just wondering, is all.....

The blade logo will tell when it was built. Union Mfg. Co. is before 1917. Union Plane Co. is after 1917. The Stanley SW logo is after 1920.

jtk

[steven c newman]

Blade logo is: UNION MFG. CO. NEWBRITAIN CT U.S.A. Seems it IS a #4...... a Number 4G as Union called them. Great, now i have THREE #4 smoothers, and just one #3. Looks like time to go out Rust Hunting, again.....

[steven c newman]

Well, now I have a "problem", too many #4s. I will keep the Union #4G, and the Handyman 1204. I have a Great Neck No.1 ( sized like a #4) that will now be a "parts plane". I guess I'm going out, looking for another #3 in a Rust Hunt. I do happen to know WHERE an Ohio #5-1/2 is sitting on a shelf @ $45. A might rich for me, though. Same store has a "regular Stanley #4, restored, for $40, sitting on the floor by the front door......


Ok, so is this Union plane a decent "user' plane???? Remember, i only paid $5 for it......

[Brian Kerley]

Blade logo is: UNION MFG. CO. NEWBRITAIN CT U.S.A. Seems it IS a #4...... a Number 4G as Union called them. Great, now i have THREE #4 smoothers, and just one #3. Looks like time to go out Rust Hunting, again.....


Sell the Handyman 1204 and buy a #3. Craigslist, even the goodwills have them occasionally.

[David Weaver]

Sell the Handyman 1204 ....

Easier said than done. I see a lot of handyman smooth plane listings on ebay that didn't sell at $4.99 or a little more. A couple that sold at that and one or two that sold at $10, but most sellers' efforts were unsuccessful with very clean looking planes.

If I were in steven's shoes, I would cut the plane buying for a little while. There is a very real danger of having a lot of planes that are worth nothing or nearly nothing, and only one smoother is needed to actually work wood. #4 or #3, it doesn't matter.

I had to throw away a couple of planes I got when I first started (one was a shiny handyman that I got for $8). I took the screws out of it, and put the rest in the trash. I didn't know what it was when I bought it, I knew what it was when I sold it. I wasn't going to spend 2 hours of listing, conversing, packing and shipping to get $8.

I had some others that had various afflictions that I got really cheap, and realized that I might like to instead stick to specific planes and types I knew about from then on.

All bargain hunting is not in vain, though, as I've gotten two millers falls smoothers (#9s with red frogs) in the last two months for $30 total, and I see another one on ebay right now with surface rust for $10 plus a few bucks shipping. Those avoid the $40 stanley baseline price basically for a decent smoother, and at the same time provide a very very good quality functional plane that will have some residual value.

Just my suggestions to steven. There have been many down this road before, and the shops still haven't run out of homeowner marketed tools for a few bucks per. That should be revealing, because those shops aren't full of clean bailey planes for $5.

[steven c newman]

I will always be on the look out for a plane or two, IF it will work in my shop.... Not cocerned about "re-sale value" of the tools i use. I spent that $8 on the handyman, and then a bit of free time to make it work right. it now can make paper thin shavings, and in Beech, or Oak. The Great Neck was the third plane i ever owned, have had it for almost 30 years now. If you work hard for that long, wouldn't you want to "retire"? The Union#4G is a keeper, i'm afraid. Means I will keep it in the shop. Not for it's "RE-sale Value", but because it will do the jobs i need done. The stanley Defiance#3 is also going to stay around. It was an inherited item that I rehabbed into a user. Yes, i do have a Bailey or two in the shop, and might wind up with a couple more. Flea Markets are starting up around here, and, Amish Country is just a half hour down the roadway. Just follow them "Road Apples"......

[David Weaver]

If you find bailey planes that have frogs with a flat milled face and that extend all the way to the casting leaving no gap, then you're in business. And if you find them at a flea market for $10 or less (which can be done), then you've got a much better and much more versatile plane than a handyman for the same coin. Even without having regard for whether or not it's worth anything to other people.

[steven c newman]

232128Bailey #8c a $25 plane232129Buck Brothers 14" jack plane, a $10 9 plus shipping) plane232130Handyman #1204, an $8 plane. I could get a few more pictures of froggies, butmost look the same to me.

[David Weaver]

Hopefully as you progress, you won't think they're nearly the same.

[steven c newman]

A frog is there for one reason, to support the iron. Over the years, even Stanley changed theirs. Other companies tried to follow suit, copying everything stanley did. Sometimes, A "better' frog was made, sometimes, not. The frog on that Union plane has a section broken off, and is missing the lateral adjustor. Not a big deal, really, as all the support needed for the iron is still there. I can always tap the iron left, or right, as needed. The handyman frog, and the Great Neck frog are almost identical, down to the original colour of both frogs. The main drawback of the Buck Brothers jack is that soft metal wheel for a depth adjustor. It will just wear away...


In a little while, I'll be out at the Pole Barn Woodshop, working on a nickolson style work bench. I'll try some other planes out, with a camera handy. I want to see a difference, but maybe won't. Bench top still needs some flattening, so, a chance to test out these smoothers, side by side. Well, one at a time, anyway. I'm not a collector, nor an E-bay addict looking to sell enough to make the next house payment. Just an old Hobbyist, who likes to use handtools now and then.

[Brian Kerley]

A frog is there for one reason, to support the iron. Over the years, even Stanley changed theirs.

Almost always to cut costs. By cutting costs, the quality was going down. You can see the differences in the frogs as time went on.


Other companies tried to follow suit, copying everything stanley did. Sometimes, A "better' frog was made, sometimes, not. The frog on that Union plane has a section broken off, and is missing the lateral adjustor. Not a big deal, really, as all the support needed for the iron is still there. I can always tap the iron left, or right, as needed.
Yes, hammer taps are fine for adjustment, but the more meat in the frog, the better the blade is bedded and the more mass you have in your plane to push through the cut.


In a little while, I'll be out at the Pole Barn Woodshop, working on a nickolson style work bench. I'll try some other planes out, with a camera handy. I want to see a difference, but maybe won't. Bench top still needs some flattening, so, a chance to test out these smoothers, side by side. Well, one at a time, anyway. I'm not a collector, nor an E-bay addict looking to sell enough to make the next house payment. Just an old Hobbyist, who likes to use handtools now and then.

Hopefully you have something longer than a 3 or 4 for bench flattening? Otherwise, just take a belt sander...you'll achieve similar results and probably much quicker too.

[steven c newman]

Something longer? I do have a Stanley #129 in the shop, and a Bailey #8c. Both got used tonight on that top. I also used a few other planes tonight. I had to split a 4x6 beech beam to get a plank I needed. A scrub plane worked thing down, going across the grain. Then a couple #5, one with a cambered iron cleaned up after the scrub plane. Then a few swipes with a 1204 to clean up after the jacks. I needed that 6" wide by 1-1/2" thick plank for a leg vise I was building.

[David Weaver]

A frog is there for one reason, to support the iron. Over the years, even Stanley changed theirs. Other companies tried to follow suit, copying everything stanley did. Sometimes, A "better' frog was made, sometimes, not.

Brian hit it on the head. After an early point, changes weren't made to make a better frog, they were made to make a cheaper frog. Eventually you are going to reach the same conclusions that most other people have reached, and it's not by chance that occurs.

Enthusiasm is great, but it's better if it's directed by a desire to avoid making mistakes others have already made when the information to do that is readily available.

[steven c newman]

So far with these planes, I am quite happy with the results each can give. Last night, I split a slab off of a 4x6 beam. Laid the slab onto the new workbench, and clamped it down. Took a H-F #33 that was modified into a scrub plane, and leveled most of the worst parts. Took the Worth jack, that has a cambered iron, cleaned up after that Wicked little beast of a scrub plane by going on the diagonals. Slab was flat, but a bit rough, so I took the Stanley #129 Fore plane and smoothed out the dippy-does along the slab's length. Then i let the three smoothers take their turn. I squared both ends of the slab, knocked two corners down to a 45 degree corner, AND beveled the (now) top end of a slab for my leg vise. Vise was even installed last night, top of the vise was 'refined' to match the bench's top with a re-habbed Stanley 9-1/2 I bought at a Thrift Store. For pictures of all of that, go to the "It's underway' thread i posted.

[steven c newman]

Ok, this has been fun, and all, but, I did find out what I wanted (or didn't) to know about that Union plane. I've already strated to "partout' the Great neck plane. I do have a few handsaws to start selling on "fleebay", after that, we'll see what THAT place has to sell me. Weekly "budget" is about .....$10 for tools. I can go to $20 if i sell an item or two. A few wood projects a year, mainly for around the house, including a new computer desk i'm using right now. Just a hobby, been that way for, oh, 30+ years.....