spring steel

[Noah Wagener]

hi,

I am attempting to make a saw for ripping logs called a maebiki lumberjocks.com/projects/60536 I bought some steel that was 1/32" thick as someone on another forum said that was the kerf of their Maebiki but i have come to find they are typically almost a tenth of an inch. The piece i bought was seven feet and i was wondering if i could laminate 2 halves of it to make one piece 1/16". Any thoughts?
Also, i have found some O1 tool steel that is roughly the size i am looking for. Are there places in metro areas (Minneapolis, MN specifically) that can harden and temper steel and if so where would i look in yellow pages? And why is steel so expensive? It seems to cost more than tools made of it.

thanks, noah

[Ken Luning]

I don't believe you will be able to successfully laminate two sheets of steel for what your wanting to do.
It would leave a void in the middle and due to expansion will eventually seperate as there is no real mechanical bond between the two halves.

I would do an internet search on saw blade steel to see if there is a supplier for this type of steel. I suspect that this type of steel is a specialty item.

[David Weaver]

No lamination. I would make sure you know you are going to use this maebiki noko-giri a lot, and that you're going to be successful because 1095 spring steel (the only thing you'll want) in that thickness (0.1) will cost you a mint. And if it is not a superb example, it will likely be immediately worth less than the cost of materials once you've made it. I don't know if the originals were tensioned, tapered or ground hollow, but these are things you will not be able to do well.

I personally, if I wanted to use one, would wait until one with patina (and not springing leaves of rust all over it) showed up on ebay without any broken teeth, take my lumps paying for it, and see if I could tolerate using it. The videos I've seen of them being used suggest that you will spend days using one to cut a few boards, even the vintage boards where people are using them out of necessity and not out of experimentation.

[David Weaver]

Tool steel is up in general lately, by the way.

If you see tools being sold for less than it costs you to buy spring steel, you'll have to guess that they generally are not made of steel of similar quality. You do not want to go to the trouble of making a saw on your own while using inferior goods..that's for sure.

[ray hampton]

I would check the yellow pages for tool& die shops or machine shops and ask them where they sent their steel to get it harder

[David Posey]

Part of the reason David is saying you only want to use 1095 is because you wouldn't have to do any heat treating to it. It already comes at the desired hardness. If you did need it heat treated, not just anyone could do it. It would be very difficult not to warp it.

[David Weaver]

Right, it's prehardened, it's tough, and it's at a good hardness for durability but can still be filed. You can get unlucky with it sometimes and get some that's really at the upper end and really hard on files, but I think all of the good quality saws now are made of it.

Maybe a decent large saw could be made out of 1080, I don't know where that actually ends up in carbon content when all's said and done, but the old disstons I've seen sampled ended up with 0.7-0.8% carbon.

[Chris Vandiver]

No lamination. I would make sure you know you are going to use this maebiki noko-giri a lot, and that you're going to be successful because 1095 spring steel (the only thing you'll want) in that thickness (0.1) will cost you a mint. And if it is not a superb example, it will likely be immediately worth less than the cost of materials once you've made it. I don't know if the originals were tensioned, tapered or ground hollow, but these are things you will not be able to do well.

I personally, if I wanted to use one, would wait until one with patina (and not springing leaves of rust all over it) showed up on ebay without any broken teeth, take my lumps paying for it, and see if I could tolerate using it. The videos I've seen of them being used suggest that you will spend days using one to cut a few boards, even the vintage boards where people are using them out of necessity and not out of experimentation.

David is right, don't waste your time re-inventing the wheel, especially an inferior one. A vintage Maebiki is indeed hand forged, tempered and hollow ground(using a sen). It is also hammer tensioned. I believe there is a modern day blacksmith still making these saws in Japan. I believe he charges several hundred dollors for a small and basic maebiki. You could probably pick up a used one that was in usable condition, at a pretty good price if you keep your eyes peeled. Mostly they are of interest to collectors, for obvious reasons.

[ray hampton]

do you intend to use this saw in a saw pit ?

[Ryan Baker]

I admit that I know nothing about this type of saw, but I cannot fathom trying to rip logs with a blade a tenth of an inch thick. That just sounds like insanity, and completely unnecessary.

[george wilson]

I was going to advise you that 1/16" X 6'' to 7" wide large bandsaw blades can usually be had at sawmills that use bandsaws. They get damaged or to narrow to sharpen,but still just fine for your purposes,and are free for the asking. You could make your own saw from one of those. I still think you are incredibly BETTER OFF just buying a 1 man log saw off of Ebay. I have noticed a few,and even saw a Japanese log saw a while back on Ebay.

I would not go 1/10" thick. You will work VERY hard using such a thick saw because of the width of wood you will remove with it.

Even I would not want to try hardening and tempering a saw plate made of 01-or any other steel for that matter. It would require special facilities to do,or many years of saw making from SCRATCH using annealed steels.

[David Weaver]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y9L7IFWb-28

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c4o_zi7l8DY&feature=related

Historically interesting, but not something I'd want to do. If the saw wasn't specifically set up for the type of wood you were cutting, I can imagine it'd either be slow (if you used a saw set up for hardwoods on softwoods) or really grabby (setup and wood the other way around).

Last time someone brought this up, there were two relatively good looking saws on ebay, though. (and in fact, there is a big one supposedly made of white steel on there now - one that will need considerable attention to the teeth, but which is probably a better saw than you could ever make even with its age showing).

[Noah Wagener]

That's a lot to digest. I am suprised the sawing would go that slow with that aggressive negative rake and the acuteness of the teeth. I've seen pictures of the leavings of one of these saws and it looked like plane shavings rather than dust.That was quite the log they were sawing with the 2 man version. Did you happen to see the Kauri slab in the related links? I wonder how they cut that.
David Posey, if i went with buying annealed steel i did not intend to harden and temper myself. Surely there is somwhere to get a steel sheet tempered without warping it? Doing an internet search for my area i found a few companies who said they did tempering and even one who said they kryogenically froze steel which replaced the need for heat treatment. BUt maybe you are right as to the difficulty as the steel i purchased was pretempered 1095 spring steel and it was not the least bit straight. It has some weird kink to it where it pops into place bent to one side or the other. It was not shipped in a coil.
I have tried using a log saw i came across. It is filed for crosscuting with the raker teeth but it ripped okay. i was thinking of filing it to rip. I may have ruined it by trying my hand at hammer straightening. The best luck i've had is using a frame saw with 2 inch wide blade but it would require a lot of digging to use in field.
Thanks for all the advice. Seems like you all are telling me hand ripping logs can't be done. Here is a homemade maebiki:http://giantcypress.net/post/19285202848/user-made-maebiki-saws-from-france-part-deux

[David Weaver]

It can definitely be done, but it's a matter of how much time, energy and money you will want to put into it. But there are a lot of reasons that nobody is doing it any longer except generally as part of demonstrations.

The maebiki on ebay is a nice looking saw, but I know nothing about what the condition needs to be for them to work well.

I know a lot about spending time making tools that turn out to be worth less than the supplies cost and not as nice to use as I expected when I was making them.

[Zach Dillinger]

Tool steel is up in general lately, by the way.

If you see tools being sold for less than it costs you to buy spring steel, you'll have to guess that they generally are not made of steel of similar quality. You do not want to go to the trouble of making a saw on your own while using inferior goods..that's for sure.


That is a concern, but remember that many toolmakers buy in large quantities, so they can probably get a better price per unit that any of us can for the same material.

[David Weaver]

They can get a little bit better price, but unless they grind to size themselves, they are also buying precision ground stock. As rob lee would probably tell us, it's still expensive. It's just not a big enough market to warrant high volume low cost goods.

[george wilson]

I was also going to remind you(before we reached the word limit) that even if you sawed the planks out,it would be at the LEAST 1 year drying if they are 1" thick. I would also recommend SEVERAL MONTHS more drying time INSIDE a heated shop.

You could work at a job and make money to buy wood faster than you can hand saw up the logs. The whole idea is impractical. It is the sort of idea that young men get into their heads,and I was no exception,that is just much more trouble than it is worth.

[Noah Wagener]

i went ahead and made a maebiki with the 1/32" steel. difficult to start a kerf and it meandered to the right before i even had a chance to improperly set the teeth. The steel ( i hesitate to call it a saw) still has a kink to it. I tried boiling water and bending in both directions and pounding with a peen hammer to no avail. the steel buckles or pops into place in either direction. oh well. I think i need to start a new thread on riving logs.

David, are you talking about the maebiki being held by a woman? The info says it is a laminated blade. I thought a saw had to be steel throughout to be stiff enough. iron can be tempered and tensioned? A lot of the teeth on that saw have a second bevel so the point looks like it is at the 60 degrees of western saws. Is the back side of Japanese saw teeth steeper to get more teeth without sacrificing depth of gullett or is it to have a more acute tooth?

[Jessica Pierce-LaRose]

If I wanted to start my work with logs, and do the work on my own, I'd be riving them.

[george wilson]

The way to use THIN spring steel is to make a frame type saw with it. Look up George Wilson harpsichord. You will find video installments of the movie we made about harpsichord and violin making. In one of the videos you will see marcus and me using a frame type veneer saw to saw the veneer for the inside of the harpsichord(spinet) case. Your thin steel would be ideal for this application since it can be tensioned as tightly as needed to keep it straight and sawing accurately. You can use this type saw by yourself,though having a partner is better.

[David Weaver]

i went ahead and made a maebiki with the 1/32" steel. difficult to start a kerf and it meandered to the right before i even had a chance to improperly set the teeth. The steel ( i hesitate to call it a saw) still has a kink to it. I tried boiling water and bending in both directions and pounding with a peen hammer to no avail. the steel buckles or pops into place in either direction. oh well. I think i need to start a new thread on riving logs.

David, are you talking about the maebiki being held by a woman? The info says it is a laminated blade. I thought a saw had to be steel throughout to be stiff enough. iron can be tempered and tensioned? A lot of the teeth on that saw have a second bevel so the point looks like it is at the 60 degrees of western saws. Is the back side of Japanese saw teeth steeper to get more teeth without sacrificing depth of gullett or is it to have a more acute tooth?

I definitely don't know anything about maebiki construction. Maybe iron and steel are laminated together to make it tougher.

I've seen some with plain rip teeth and some with teeth like those in the picture. I'm not sure that second bevel isn't just the product of resharpening.

[Noah Wagener]

thanks again fellas. I already have a frame saw similar to the one you are using though the blade on mine is 2" where as yours looks a little wider. After seeing the pictures of the maebiki in us i really am interested in sawing horizontally so i can just crack into logs i find where they lie. I even tried using the frame saw blade in a bow saw but at 48" it was a little cumbersome.I initially tried the 1/32" maebiki on some 3/4 stock so my degradation of it may have been premature. The extreme width has no benenfits on such wood but i did try it on a log since and i am sold on the Japanes style saw. THose aggressive angles really bite in so you need no downward pressure whatsover. I even felt like i was lifting it off ever so much. You can use all your energy to yank it through whereas if you ,well me anyways, pushed that hard the saw would buckle. I dont think i could even push a saw at all with that negative rake.Man i wish i would have bought that maebiki David mentioned. I think it sold for 270 and i ended up paying 180 for my piece of spring steel and some junk files(80 dollars shipping!) I had made the attempt to make one of these saws because the only maebiki i had seen for sale was $1,000. Had no idea they showed up on e-bay. Someone else was selling an antique sawmill blade like you suggested George. It did not sell i believe. I wish i could find it again as i may proceed in my folly of making one of these saws. It was nine inches wide and looked pretty thick. The newer band blades appear to be only like an inch and a half.

Out of curiosity anyone know what the purpose of filing the tip of the front of the teeth recessed a little would be? Third picture: http://search.yahoo.com/r/_ylt=A0oG7kRN.LxPhWgA6ZNXNyoA;_ylu=X3oDMTE0OTg0cWd 2BHNlYwNzcgRwb3MDNARjb2xvA2FjMgR2dGlkA1ZJUDE0MV83M w--/SIG=132r16270/EXP=1337813197/**http%3a//giantcypress.net/post/13869034901/you-call-that-a-saw-now-this-is-a-saw

thanks Noah

[David Weaver]

If someone is filing only the tip of a tooth back, it may be that they are just looking do get by with files that they have, or not file all of the metal present if they don't have to.

There are maebiki on ebay with some regularity, $270 seems a little high for what I've seen, but I could just be off because they are not always in a condition that could be used easily.

What thickness of spring steel did you end up getting? If you get to a point where you've made a saw that you can use with ease in cutting lumber, it'd be illuminating for everyone and definitely post worthy (plus you could probably make a rowing team after you've done a few boards).

It always appears slow and full of work when I see people demo-ing them, but demos aren't always (or aren't often at all) done with the speed or skill that a professional sawyer would have.

[Noah Wagener]

David,

I came across a small paragraph about the filing that makes me think it is intentional with some purpose pertaining to sawing. "THe special teeth give purchase so the blade can dig in better at the end of its glide, where the power of the user's pull plus the blade's own inertia is at its least. .... Odate mentioned that in woodworker's slang these teeth were sometimes called chon-gake." I don't really understand "purchase" in this usage and i think the "blade's own inertia" would be at its least at the start of the stroke. It would be zero anyways.

The steel i used is 1/32" as before i adequately researched the maebiki i came across a thread where someone said there saw left a 1/32" kerf. This made sense to me as i have read that pit saws are 1/16 and also that Japanese saws are thinner than western saws. I think it is interesting that the pit saw cuts on pull stroke but no one ever tried transferring this to other sawing applications. I think one of those box handles that the pitman uses would be good for sawing horizontally with a maebiki as well.

My trials certainly did not saw lumber with ease but were quicker and more pleasant than what i was used to (5 ppi panel saw and crosscut timber saw). I think it is always going to look slow. I remember reading a book i think called The Village Carpenter about a kid growing up at a mill where they pit sawed and remarked how painfully slow and tedious the sawing went. I imagine those maebikis cut about the same rate as a pit saw. Some guy did claim he cut 3/4" per stroke with his frame saw with a band saw blade on a maple log. That is 16 strokes a foot so that means a foot every what, 30 seconds? Seems unbelievable to me. Takes me about 30 minutes.

I would like to ask again if anyone knows where yu would take a piece of steel the size of a maebiki to be heat treated?

thanks