Shooting board

[Joe Hillmann]

I need to start making picture frames and I figure the best way to make them and make sure they are all the same size is to cut them with a sled on my table saw and then use a shooting board to true up the angle and make sure the lengths are the same. In searching for information on how to build an accurate shooting board the miter ones were all right handed. I am wondering how the other side of the miter is done, it seems like shooting boards for making miters should really be built in pairs so both sides of the miter can be done, that or I am missing something.

[Derek Cohen]

Hi Joe

Here are two I built. The priority is to ensure that the fences are at 90 degrees to one another, that is, they add to 90 degrees. It matters less that they are at 45 degrees each.

http://i13.photobucket.com/albums/a262/Derek50/Shooting%20Boards/Setting20Up20and20Using20a20Shooting20Board4_html_ 1115b63b.jpg

http://i13.photobucket.com/albums/a262/Derek50/Shooting%20Boards/ShootingBoardsfortheLNHandtoolEvent_html_m55ae9c07 .jpg

Regards from Perth

Derek

[Andrew Pitonyak]

I almost always see shooting boards left or right, but not both. Usually boards can be flipped, but not so with many moldings. Note that they do exist, see here:

http://www.evenfallstudios.com/woodworks/2010/12/23/a-shooting-board-for-picture-frames-and-moldings

Now, I said that moldings cannot be simply flipped over, but that is not entirely accurate. Some types of clay work well to support a molding when it is flipped (I saw this done at WIA last year). This clay would work

http://www.sculpeyproducts.com/Elasticlay.htm

I don't think that I can link to blog posts, I don't remember, so use Google and search on

Shooting picture frame moldings both ends from one side

Tivo Vogt has a nice post with pictures demonstrating this.

[Joe Hillmann]

Hi Joe

Here are two I built. The priority is to ensure that the fences are at 90 degrees to one another, that is, they add to 90 degrees. It matters less that they are at 45 degrees each.




Derek


In the one in the first picture do you just pull the plane towards yourself when doing the far side? And thank you, that should work for my purposes very well, and it looks easy to build.

[Joe Hillmann]

Andrew,
Thanks for the clay idea, but it think it is a bit slow for what I need. I think I will end up building one similar to what Derek posted. That way I can shoot the first side to get it cleaned up then set up the second side with a stop on it so when I shoot the second side I am getting it to length and cleaning it up in a couple passes.

I don't know how many frames I will end up going through but I hope to be able to make 100 (from rough lumber to finished) in a day, that way I only have to spend one day every two weeks this summer making them, then this winter I will really stock up on them.

[Zach England]

I love a shooting board, but if you have a decent table saw with a good blade and miter gauge/sled it really shouldn't be necessary. I can get hairline-precise cuts on my modest cabinet saw and incra mater gauge with carefully placed stops.

When I get home I will take a photo of my dual-side shooting board. It is similar to the one Derek posted, but not nearly as nice.

[Derek Cohen]

In the one in the first picture do you just pull the plane towards yourself when doing the far side? And thank you, that should work for my purposes very well, and it looks easy to build.

Hi Joe

Yep. One side you push and the other side you pull. Or, walk around and push again.

Regards from Perth

Derek

[Joe Hillmann]

I love a shooting board, but if you have a decent table saw with a good blade and miter gauge/sled it really shouldn't be necessary. I can get hairline-precise cuts on my modest cabinet saw and incra mater gauge with carefully placed stops.

When I get home I will take a photo of my dual-side shooting board. It is similar to the one Derek posted, but not nearly as nice.


I may give it a try without using a shooting boar but the person I have making them now cuts them on a chop saw and even though the cuts are nice and smooth about one out of five frames have one corner that isn't perfect. I am hoping with a shooting board they will all be perfect. Although the imperfections may be caused by sawdust on the fence.

[Jim Matthews]

I love a shooting board, but if you have a decent table saw with a good blade and miter gauge/sled it really shouldn't be necessary. I can get hairline-precise cuts on my modest cabinet saw and incra mater gauge with carefully placed stops.

No doubt.
This is, however, the Neanderthal haven which implies working by hand.
If you do the math, does a miter box/saw/handplane cost more or less than the table saw and Incra gauge?

[Derek Cohen]

Errors are generally caused by two factors. The first is that the angle is incorrect in the first place. That is the obvious one. The second errors comes from the work slipping or moving on the fence. This is a common problem with a tablesaw. On the tablesaw I will clamp the work as securely as possible. Even so, I rarely get an accurate mitre as the angles are difficult to keep aligned. On the shooting board it is essential that you add non-slip to the fence. This can be sandpaper or, as I generally prefer, paint on a thin layer of epoxy and sprinkle with castor sugar or fine salt.

Regards from Perth

Derek

[Zach England]

No doubt.
This is, however, the Neanderthal haven which implies working by hand.
If you do the math, does a miter box/saw/handplane cost more or less than the table saw and Incra gauge?


I am not saying that my way is the best way to do it or the only way to do it. I am just sharing my experience, since the original poster mentioned using the table saw.

[Bill Rhodus]

Joe, go to Derek's web site and take a look at the shooting board tutorials there; they are easy to build and will improve the quality of your work. One feature that Derek did not show in his photos is the fence to keep the plane parallel; this is a simple add-on and is a great feature. After years of cutting angles on a pair of table saws and getting "acceptable" work, I now choose to not be without a shooting board.

[Charlie Stanford]

I need to start making picture frames and I figure the best way to make them and make sure they are all the same size is to cut them with a sled on my table saw and then use a shooting board to true up the angle and make sure the lengths are the same. In searching for information on how to build an accurate shooting board the miter ones were all right handed. I am wondering how the other side of the miter is done, it seems like shooting boards for making miters should really be built in pairs so both sides of the miter can be done, that or I am missing something.

There something about building a shooting board with a table saw (and presumably jointer and planer) that I find a little disquieting - if you have a fully mechanized shop you probably already have the means at your disposal of producing very accurate components, and if your machinery won't do this in the first place, you're unlikely to coax an accurately made shooting board out of it either. Seems *sort of* like a Catch-22, maybe it's not.

What do you need the board for? Will your tablesaw not crank out accurately mitered components one after the other? It's supposed to you know...

You might simply consider upgrading your miter fence/gauge - there are lots of accurate ones on the aftermarket and they all have stops so you can assure components are cut to the same length. You should be able to crank out the miters for 50 picture frames a day with a decent tablesaw with good fences and gauges.

The other alternative would be to buy a guillotine trimmer which pro frame shops use. Running parts on a tablesaw then shooting them on a board - lousy idea IMO... don't really see the point, you're already using machines, if there's one thing they're capable of doing well it's exactly what you're contemplating building; they'll get picture frame parts out for you without a whimper.

[Derek Cohen]

...One feature that Derek did not show in his photos is the fence to keep the plane parallel;...

Hi Bill

Thanks for the kind words.

Here is a link to the "running fence" as I termed it: http://www.inthewoodshop.com/ShopMadeTools/RunningFencefortheShootingBoard.html

http://www.inthewoodshop.com/ShopMadeTools/RunningFencefortheShootingBoard_html_m44e5a6e3.jpg

http://www.inthewoodshop.com/ShopMadeTools/RunningFencefortheShootingBoard_html_1be77b37.jpg

Regards from Perth

Derek

[Kenneth Speed]

Truthfully I think most of us here are blended woodworkers and relatively few of us are accomplishing all of our woodworking with hand tools.

I've toyed with the idea of making a shooting board because I like to make use of my bevel up Veritas jack plane but I really don't need one. I can cut good miters on my table saw and if I need to "adjust" them I have a Lion brand miter trimmer.

[Zach England]

What do you need the board for? Will your tablesaw not crank out accurately mitered components one after the other? It's supposed to you know...

I keep a miter box and shooting board because sometimes it is more convenient than the table saw. At the moment I actually have my miter box clamped to the top of my table saw because the table saw is set up with a dado stack and I wanted to keep the dado stack set as is.

[Charlie Stanford]

Andrew,
Thanks for the clay idea, but it think it is a bit slow for what I need. I think I will end up building one similar to what Derek posted. That way I can shoot the first side to get it cleaned up then set up the second side with a stop on it so when I shoot the second side I am getting it to length and cleaning it up in a couple passes.

I don't know how many frames I will end up going through but I hope to be able to make 100 (from rough lumber to finished) in a day, that way I only have to spend one day every two weeks this summer making them, then this winter I will really stock up on them.

If you're serious about making complete frames in quantity (100 per day, which is a minimum of 400 miters per day if all of your frames are rectangles) you need a miter trimmer, not a shooting board.

Please, trust me on this.

The first day a cold front blows through with accompanying rain and the board moves a smidge and none of your miters fit (to a picture frame standard, i.e., dead flush perfection) you'll thank me for this advice.

In fact, you need a miter trimmer and somebody standing there trimming the pieces as you run them off the tablesaw.

[James White]

I may give it a try without using a shooting boar but the person I have making them now cuts them on a chop saw and even though the cuts are nice and smooth about one out of five frames have one corner that isn't perfect. I am hoping with a shooting board they will all be perfect. Although the imperfections may be caused by sawdust on the fence.

Chop saws are not capable of the repeated accuracy needed for this task. The exception may be the Festool Kapex or other industrial chop saws. But the table saw is what is needed here.

100 frames a day from rough to ready seems pretty ambitious. Let us know if it is possible.

James

[Derek Cohen]

If you're serious about making complete frames in quantity (100 per day, which is a minimum of 400 miters per day if all of your frames are rectangles) you need a miter trimmer, not a shooting board.

I agree with Charles. There is a place for a shooting board, but the mitre trimmer (e.g. Lion) is the tool of choice for picture frames.

Regards from Perth

Derek

[Joe Hillmann]

I have been looking at a miter trimmer but since I have never used one I am unsure of there utility. I really don't know how this will all turn out, I plan on having my uncle help me with a sample run of 50 early next week so after that I will have a better idea of what works and what doesn't. As far as 100 frames in a day, they are 5x7 frames so milling the wood isn't quite as big of a job as it would be if they were larger (only need about 300 feet of frame rail) and to be honest 100 in a single day may be shooting a bit high.

[Zach England]

My own opinion is that when you need 100 frames in one day you aren't really doing woodworking--you are doing something more akin to manufacturing. I really think a good miter gauge (one that has repeatable and locking miters like the Incra) is a good investment--that is assuming you have an accurate table saw to use it on. You can set up an auxiliary fence with stop blocks permanently affixed for each length and angle you need.

Personally, I like the experiential aspects of working with hand tools, but I don't like them x100. That's just me. If I were embarking on this endeavor I would want to streamline the process as much as possible, and I think the key to that is to make repeatable cuts. With the right equipment and setup I promise it can be done on a table saw.

Again, just my opinion. I in no way want to denigrate others' suggestions. I am just saying how I would do it.

[Bill Rhodus]

+1 on Zach's approach. The shooting board leaves a better finish on the miter than any saw blade I have ever had and it is handy for cleaning up a variety of components. I can't begin to relate to producing 100 frames in a day with hand tools.

[Charlie Stanford]

+1 on Zach's approach. The shooting board leaves a better finish on the miter than any saw blade I have ever had and it is handy for cleaning up a variety of components. I can't begin to relate to producing 100 frames in a day with hand tools.

The volume of miters to be shot in a compressed amount of time, and the resulting wear on the board itself, really precludes this approach unless the OP makes a couple or three boards, and all to an extremely high standard, before getting started with the work.

There actually is probably a saw blade/miter gauge combo that would do these to a high enough standard without requiring trimming, but assuming trimming needs to be done a guillotine trimmer is the right non-electron powered tool for this particular job.

[Zach England]

+1 on Zach's approach. The shooting board leaves a better finish on the miter than any saw blade I have ever had and it is handy for cleaning up a variety of components. I can't begin to relate to producing 100 frames in a day with hand tools.

My experience is that a properly aligned, sharp and high-quality blade will leave a surface that is more than adequate for glue-up.

[Joe Hillmann]

My experience is that a properly aligned, sharp and high-quality blade will leave a surface that is more than adequate for glue-up.


I am not quite sure what you are saying, do you mean cut with a table saw the glue will hold better or do you mean with a plane the glue will hold better?

[Zach England]

I am not quite sure what you are saying, do you mean cut with a table saw the glue will hold better or do you mean with a plane the glue will hold better?

I am not saying one will hold better than the other. All I am saying is that the miters I get off my table saw do not need any further work done to them to get a tight glue joint.

[Joe Hillmann]

I would like to thank everyone for the input. I think for now I will skip using the shooting board and see what I can do with my table saw to get nice accurate miters. And if that doesn't work I will then give the shooting board a try until I can either get the cuts I need on the saw or get a miter trimmer.

[Sean Richards]

If you are going be churning out 100 frames a day you will need a serious investment in machinery - a double mitre saw (using a mitre chopper will be too slow) and a pneumatic underpinner. You might be able to get set up for $10K or so I guess?

[Jeff Heath]

Here's mine, made from scraps in the shop in about an hour. You can just turn the plane over and come from the other direction.

http://i849.photobucket.com/albums/ab57/hawkfan9/hand%20tools/shootingboard.jpg

Jeff

[Jim Neeley]

This discussion is starting to sound a bit like those "what is the best sharpening system". LOL..

While I own a Uni/Incra and a Bosch glider, a shooting board provides me with something they clearly don't.. the ability to trim lengths to match in thousandths of an inch. When 1/32" or 1/64" is good enough a stop would work fine but the shooting board lets me bring them juuuuust right. If my goal was to make 100 per day (4.8 minutes apiece, start to finished) I'd not consider using one. Then again, I wouldn't find pleasure working a production line. <g>

YMMV..

[Charlie Stanford]

I would like to thank everyone for the input. I think for now I will skip using the shooting board and see what I can do with my table saw to get nice accurate miters. And if that doesn't work I will then give the shooting board a try until I can either get the cuts I need on the saw or get a miter trimmer.

Joe, FWIW a miter trimmer is used to remove what amounts to a tissue sample from an already pretty accurately cut miter to bring the joint to total perfection.

[Joe Hillmann]

Here is what I have come up with so far. It is a sled that slides in the miter slots on my table saw. The fence in front is where I cut the sticks to length with a 90 degree cut with a stop clamped to it to keep all the stick the same length. Then the sticks get the left miter cut by being held against the right side of the jig. Then the right miter is cut by putting the sticks against the left side of the jig and butted up against a stop to get the length correct. I still need to glue pieces of sand paper to it to prevent the sticks from slipping when I cut the left miter.
232114

And this is what I use to glue and staple them together with. The center piece with the wingnut on it can be adjusted front and back to adjust for different trim widths. The two small pieces of wood on either side of that piece are wedges with compound angles on them so as they are slid forward they get tighter and try to push the frame pieces together in the corner and down. For now I just slide them in by hand to clamp it but plan to make it foot operated. Once the corner of the frame is glued and clamped I put in a staple from each corner and then move on to the next corner.
232115

Using this set up it takes about 6 minutes to go from a piece of trim to a finished frame. I hope that when I begin running them in batches I can get it down to about 5 minutes a piece. Which puts my hope of 100 frames from rough lumber to finished frames out the window for the moment. But for the time being this should work out.

I am sure someone will point out I need to add time for cutting the glass and doing the assembly of the hardware, but that will all be done at the point of sale when I am at craft shows except for the glass which I am getting from a local glass company, they are cutting the 5x7 pieces from there scrap.

Also, I kind of feel bad about this being in the neanderthal section when I ended up doing it compleatly with power tools but I felt that since I asked the original question about shooting boards here it would be rude not to let you guys have an update on how it is working out for me. And I would also like to thank everyone for there suggestions on the best way to go about doing what I wanted to do.

[Christian Castillo]

What I would like to know is how one would go about making a shooting board without any power tools.

[Chris Vandiver]

What I would like to know is how one would go about making a shooting board without any power tools.

One way would be to use only hand tools.:)

[Derek Cohen]

What I would like to know is how one would go about making a shooting board without any power tools.

Why would you need to do this .... because you do not have power tools, or because you do not want to use them?

Creating square boards is not difficult. A square, a marking gauge, and the ability to plane to a line are all that are required.

Regards from Perth

Derek

[Lamar Keeney]

I with the mitre trimmer. I have a Lion Trimmer. Once tuned, that's it. And they are still availiable new for around $200. (Highland Hardware) Should you have someone close to try one out I think you'll find it is quicker and as acurate as any shooting board. One thin swipe and it's done.

Regards, Lamar

[Brian Kerley]

What I would like to know is how one would go about making a shooting board without any power tools.

I know right? Must've been impossible to make shooting boards a couple of hundred years ago....

If you are proficient with hand tools you can square up a board easily enough. On a shooting board there are only three surfaces that matter, and those three don't even need to be coplanar or orthogonal. if you had a thick enough board, you just would flatten the "top". Cut a rabbet about 1/2" by 2" wide with a saw. use a plane to clean up the "ramp" and make it parallel to the top (or at least non tilted with the top. the long-way of the ramp doesn't need to be co-linear with the top, just flat). Then, take a shoulder plane and make the 1/2" wide shoulder and make it straight. It wouldn't even need to be a perfect 90...just straight. Your shooting board is done enough so it will work. All the other faces and can be non-flat or non-square. It won't affect what you are doing.