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Ed Aumiller
05-08-2012, 1:35 PM
http://www.volkswagen.co.uk/#/new/passat-vii/which-model/engines/fuel-consumption/
(http://www.volkswagen.co.uk/#/new/passat-vii/which-model/engines/fuel-consumption/)Passat gets 78.5 mpg in country, 54.3 city, 68.9 combined
Made in USA but not allowed to be sold here....

do not agree with his reason, but listen to the part about pollution being less overall..

http://video.staged.com/localshops/vw_passat_785_mpg_in_the_uk

The Touran gets 61.4 MPG combined 68 MPG country driving

David Weaver
05-08-2012, 1:45 PM
multiply MPG stats for UK cars by 3.79/4.55 or roughly 0.833, the stats go to 45 and 57 combined.

The UK gallon is quite a bit larger than the US gallon.

Several of the cars sold as similar items (the accord is one I could think of, the vehicle sold as an accord was the body of the acura TSX in europe, smaller than the accord in the US).

And people in the UK seem to have a tolerance for smaller displacement engines for efficiency vs. what people will tolerate in the US.

That's not saying we haven't killed diesels over here - we have. I guess the gasoline engine, too, but we didn't have super efficient gasoline engines to compare to the current engines so we wouldn't notice the dropoff due to emissions.

David Weaver
05-08-2012, 1:53 PM
(It does look like the US and UK passats are the same weight, so probably the same body, and the diesel is really neutered here in terms of mileage. I wonder if there is some slop in the test that's allowed in the UK vs the new adjusted EPA ratings that are required here).

daniel lane
05-08-2012, 3:03 PM
I'm just amused that I read the thread title and understood it completely, even though there isn't a single word in there. :D

Orion Henderson
05-08-2012, 4:19 PM
Three things:

1. As stated: UK Gallon is substantially larger than an American gallon.1 UK gallon (liquid) equals 1.20xxx US. That explains a lot of it. Their gallons cost a whole heck of lot more than ours no matter how you measure it too.

2. They also run their own version of the EPA test cycle which may give different results. Cars are the same, measurements aren't.

3. They have smaller displacement diesels than we get here in the US. The 78.5mpg model has a 105 HP diesel, the American Passat TDI-which you can get-has a 170 HP diesel. VW makes multiple TDI Engines with different HP figures (Or BHP figures in Limey speak) and displacements. Only the largest 170HP 2.0 comes to the US. Still gets pretty darn good mileage though.

Zach England
05-08-2012, 11:24 PM
The drive on the left. That is more efficient because of the coriolis effect.

Ed Aumiller
05-08-2012, 11:42 PM
David, forgot about difference in size of a gallon, UK vs US... even with differences, much better mileage, probably due to emissions control.... Thanks...

Zach, agree totally..... plus they are on opposite side of the pond with different moon influences...

Orion, do not think cars are same... think smaller engines allow better mileage and we should be allowed to buy them in US...

Brian Elfert
05-09-2012, 1:22 AM
Car manufacturers sell what they can make a profit on. Also, they can make a lot more profit on one SUV than they can on one econobox. Would American buyers buy a smaller engine if it was offered?

I would buy a diesel car if it was affordable. Almost $23,000 for a VW Jetta diesel is not affordable in my book. I can get similar sized cars for quite a bit less with gasoline engines.

Kevin W Johnson
05-09-2012, 5:10 AM
Car manufacturers sell what they can make a profit on. Also, they can make a lot more profit on one SUV than they can on one econobox. Would American buyers buy a smaller engine if it was offered?

I would buy a diesel car if it was affordable. Almost $23,000 for a VW Jetta diesel is not affordable in my book. I can get similar sized cars for quite a bit less with gasoline engines.

Umm..... true, however they also sell what they are allowed to sell. The point here is that the engines sold in cars in Europe aren't allowed here.

Size of a UK gallon aside, their cars still get better mileage.

Brian Elfert
05-09-2012, 8:30 AM
Umm..... true, however they also sell what they are allowed to sell. The point here is that the engines sold in cars in Europe aren't allowed here.


Aren't allowed here, or simply aren't sold here? The reason in the early 2000s that a lot of European diesel engines weren't sold in the USA was because of our diesel. We switched to ULSD in 2006/7 and that was supposed to allow more European diesels to be sold here. I believe there area some differences in pollution standards too. EPA is very concerned about NOx emissions and Europe seems more concerned about CO2 emissions.

There are a lot more manual transmissions and smaller engines in Europe so they will get better MPGs. Are there any cars sold in both the USA and Europe with the same basic engine to compare MPGs?

Kevin W Johnson
05-09-2012, 8:41 AM
Not allowed. Theres an engine in the Jetta's thats BUILT HERE, but only installed in cars sold over seas.

Brian Elfert
05-09-2012, 10:32 AM
Not allowed. Theres an engine in the Jetta's thats BUILT HERE, but only installed in cars sold over seas.

VW in the UK sells both a 1.6 and 2.0 TDI engine. Is it really a matter that VW can't make the 1.6 TDI meet American pollution standards, or they choose not to spend the money to make it meet American standards? I suspect the latter. VW doesn't sell that many diesel engines in the USA to start with and Americans tend to like larger engines so why would VW spend the money on something that wouldn't sell? I personally would never buy a VW without a diesel engine as their gasoline engines get poor MPG. I had a VW diesel, but I needed more cargo room so I got a minivan to replace the VW.

It is interesting that in the UK the VW Jetta with 2.0 diesel sells for almost $10,000 more than the same car in the USA. I have no idea if that price includes any sort of government taxes and fees.

David Weaver
05-09-2012, 10:50 AM
You should've bought a microbus and refit one of the old VW eco-diesels!Maybe the new VWs are different, but I also found the two VWs I've had (one was mine, I cheered the day i got rid of it, and then I met my wife about 8 years ago and she had just gotten a brand new one....) really are lacking in mileage when you compare their power and weight to other makes. Certain years of VWs have had a lot of electrical problems from what I can tell, too. I had one of the years - the early jetta IVs, it had about $7,000 worth of work before it was 5 years old. Wife's car so far has only needed a couple of ignition coils and a water pump (at 50,000 miles). It's been relegated to sporadic duty because that's what VWs are good for. You'd complain (you being the general case of everyone) about having to put a new water pump in any other car at 50,000 miles but to only replace two $40 coils and a water pump in 8 years and about 56000 miles on any VW, I'll cheer. The experience is enough to make me look elsewhere for a car, though - I'd be afraid any savings with a TDI would be first eaten up by increased initial cost, and then second by maintenance.

Greg Peterson
05-09-2012, 11:04 AM
IMO, fuel economy, at best, is a secondary consideration in the American market. There may be a better reason for why I have to deal with the glare of those headlights in my rearview mirror from all SUV's and 4x4's.

Last time I looked, the federal gas tax was 18.4 cents per gallon. The state gas tax is is quite variable, but only six states appear to have a lower tax rate than the feds. That leaves 44 states with a vested interest in high fuel consumption. If one is to take the simplified theory the video presents.

I suspect there are a number of pieces to the puzzle. The average citizens is more and more a spectator to the process while the super citizens have the true clout.

Graham Wintersgill
05-09-2012, 12:11 PM
A lot of people over here are complaining that they cannot achieve the published mileage figures so you have to wonder how much tweaking the manufacturers do to the test engine. Here are the figures for a car sol in the Sates and UK:

Scion iQ
EPA highway 37
EPA Urban 36
cost new dollars 15,995
auto 1.3

UK Toyota iQ

Consumption Consumption Consumption
mpg (l/100km) mpg (l/100km) mpg (l/100km) g/km
Combined Urban Extra-Urban
iQ 1.33 VVT-i Multidrive 54.3 (5.2) 44.1 (6.4) 62.8 (4.5)
GBP 12,935

THere is 20 per cent VAT included in the UK price.

Petrol just now is hovering 1.40 gbp per litre which equates to about 6.40 GBP per gallon (4.564 litres) which is abbout 10.00 USD
Yes there is fuel tax and 20 percent VAT in these prices as well.

I have a 1 litre, 5 speed manual that is returning just over 60 miles to the imperial gallon - very handy in my 350 mile weekly commute.

Regards

Graham

David Weaver
05-09-2012, 12:26 PM
The adjusted (to US gallons) UK numbers then would be:

45.2, 36.7, and 52.3

Still better than the US numbers.

I would imagine that if someone could keep themselves at 55 miles per hour, 45 miles per gallon on the highway would be pretty easily obtained with the american version of the scion.

Nobody here does that, though.

There is a gigantic difference in mileage between 55 and 75, and even bigger between 45 and 75. The difference between 40 and 70 on a scion XB (in the US) is 42 miles per gallon vs. 29-30. There are not many places you can go 40 miles per hour steady without stopping, though.

Brian Elfert
05-09-2012, 12:35 PM
I don't have the mechanical or technical skills to put a different engine in a VW bus. I have a factory installed diesel in my motorhome and I spend too much keeping that engine happy.

I did consider MPG when I bought my minivan. A number of brands didn't get my consideration because of the MPG. I bought a Dodge Grand Caravan and it gets decent MPG for what it is. My parents have a 2000 Grand Caravan and I get as good of city MPG as they get highway MPG. Their minivan was designed in the early to mid 1990s when gas was $1 a gallon or less and MPG wasn't as big an issue.

Brian Elfert
05-09-2012, 3:52 PM
The adjusted (to US gallons) UK numbers then would be:

45.2, 36.7, and 52.3

Still better than the US numbers.


Can anyone explain why the same car with the same basic engine gets much better MPG in the UK than in the USA? There is a 1.0L engine available in the UK that Toyota/Scion does not even offer in the USA.

Graham Wintersgill
05-09-2012, 4:13 PM
Brian


I found this info about UK tests:
How ‘official’ fuel tests are conducted

The first surprise to most people may be that the car makers themselves, rather than some independent body, run the tests, albeit to a brief specified by the appropriate department of transport.

The tests themselves are conducted on a ‘Rolling Road’ dynamometer and have two parts. The first part consists of 2.5 miles of accelerating, slowing down and idling in the lower three gears (unless it’s an automatic), after a cold start, at an ambient temperature that we expect to experience on a English summer day. The maximum speed is 30mph and the average 12mph.

Following on immediately from this, the second figure is derived over a further 4.3 miles driving in all gears, accelerating very gently up to a maximum of 75mph, and averaging 39mph. The total fuel consumed in both tests, divided into the total 6.8 miles, gives the combined result.

Not very real life especially when people have different idea of gentle.

Lots of USA testing data at http://www.epa.gov/fedrgstr/EPA-AIR/2006/December/Day-27/a9749.htm

As to why you cannot get the 1 litre engine will probably be down to marketing people and may also explain why you only get the auto.

Regards

Graham

Richard Shaefer
05-11-2012, 1:58 PM
EU and US car prices aren't directly comparable beucase the tax structure for not only the cars, but the pieces of the cars, and how the cars are imported, all factor in. If you want to blow your mind, look up the 'chicken tax'. It's a riot.

Fuel economy is also calculated very differently. US and EU cycles use different protocols, and the EU also factors in start/stop features for city mpg, which the EPA hasn't figured out yet. I'll spare you, but I could also rant about how EPA numbers that show modern automatic transmissions getting same or better fuel economy that stick shifts is a total farce, since the automaker know's the EPA test inisde and out and program tunes the transmission to beat it. Consequently you get stuck with a tranmission that is explicitly designed to work in an EPA lab and probably sucks in your normal commute. 3rd pedals forever ;)