Naniwa Snow White 8k: A review and a thank you

[Chris Griggs]

WARNING!!!! IF YOU ARE SICK AND TIRED OF READING ABOUT SHARPENING, WATER STONES, AND OTHER THINGS THAT HAVE A BIGGER IMPACT ON YOUR POCKET BOOK THEN YOUR ACTUAL WOODWORKING THEN READ NO FURTHER!!!!! YOU'VE BEEN WARNED....

My good friend and sharpening enthusiast Archie England generously gifted me a Naniwa Snow White 8k as a a going away present. THANKS ARCHIE!!!!!

I've had my Snow White a few days and have been using it side by side with a tiny piece of Chosera 10k I bought at a discount. Up front, let me say that if you've ever wanted a Chosera 10K and couldn't justify the expense, then this is the stone to get.

Might as well be called a Chosera 9.9K because as far as I can tell its 99% of what the Chosera 10k is. Like the Chosera 10k, it doesn’t visibly absorb water when you splash it, and while you might be able to use it as a splash and go, it does work much better with at least a 5-10 minute soak. When its at its best, it is hard, slick, creamy, and smooth smooth smooth! However, because its a hard stone it can be prone to aquaplaning if you have too much water sitting on the top or if you do not soak it long enough. That may make it sound like its not that nice a stone to use, but that's a characteristic that is true of many hard stones, can be overcome with a little skill, and from what I've seen often goes away completely once the stone gets broken in. I fully expect this stone to become even nicer as I continue to use it. It is in fact as dreamy of a stone as you one will find - VERY similar in feel to the Chosera 10k.

It does bear mentioning that the Snow White, like the Chosera line, is a magnesia based stone (whatever that means), so it CANNOT be left in water. The fact that it cannot be perma soaked and that it doesn't work particularly well as a splash and go will certainly be a deal breaker for some. I taken to keeping mine on top of a food container that I keep filled with water, so that I can just drop it in the water when I pull out my Sigma 1k and 6k which I do keep in water at all times.

On typical O1 and A2 tool steels the Snow White is at least as fast as the Chosera 10k. On small bevels you can easily jump to it straight from a 1k. The Snow White and the Chosera 10k produce an edge that is nearly identical in terms of sharpness but the Chosera does impart a slightly, though noticeably brighter finish. Aesthetics, however, is the biggest difference in the end result. Also, with the Snow White, or really any hard stone, you can work up a finer edge and higher polish by wiping the surface of the stone dry and working the edge a bit longer on the surface as it dries out further. When I do this with the Snow White it easily works up to at least a 10k polish and edge - every bit as sharp as a blade taken off a Chosera 10k or a Sigma 10k. I suppose the Chosera 10k can take you a little farther if you do the same thing, and while it definitely puts on a brighter polish at the get go, I believe the vast majority of people wouldn't be able to tell a difference in actual sharpness between it and the Snow White. Someone who sells the stuff like Stu or Joel might be able too, but I certainly can't. The Chosera 10k is awesome, no doubt, but this is the next best thing if you're interested in that type of stone, and it's less then half the price. Naniwa's best kept secret

Again, I've only been using this a couple of days so I'm sure I'll discover more about this stone as I continue to use it. If Stu, Joel, or anyone else find my analysis and/or comparison to the Cho 10k to be off at all please do not hesitate to correct me - I posted this because I think its a great option for a finishing stone, and I want people to have as accurate information about it as possible.

Overall fantastic stone at a good price! THANKS AGAIN MY GOOD FRIEND!

P.S. This one was purchased from Chef Knives to Go, but I believe there are a couple other online retailers who sell it as well.

[David Weaver]

GADDD...another stone thread!!!

:)

If that's now the budget feel stone (and no reason to believe it isn't):

Budget stone collection for people who like feel and who like something that cuts fast but feels like butter would be the bester 1200, (which i guess feels more like coral than butter - I think it can be had for $47 shipped from takeshi - metalmaster finds him on google - for those willing to gamble, or about $50 over here), the fabulous fujibato 6k magnesia (for lack of a better way to describe it) for $39 shipped on ebay on ebay and the snow white then.

Though I don't know that an intermediate (6k) stone has any purpose in that lineup.

Though the resin 10k stone from takeshi also is a pretty decent stone and a steal for $75, i doubt it feels like the snow white. But it is a pretty good stone that I've got a strong hunch is sold rebranded as nubatama at cktg, and probably in the ballpark of chosera hardness (which to me is a medium stone where a black arkansas or fine-grit ozuku asagi would be considered hard). It's also very smooth when soaked, and a notch short of a clean chosera in polish.

[Chris Griggs]

Hey you were warned....:)

Agreed! Bester 1200 is, to me anyway, unequivocally the best bang for the buck in 1k ish range of stones (not that I'll be giving up Sigma 1k which I like slightly better). At $100 The SW8K certainly isn't the cheapest stone out there, but its cheaper than a lot of high grit stones and its about as much bang for the buck that one will find in a high grit stone. In terms of a good mix of price, speed, feel, and edge, I think one would be hard pressed to find a 2 stone lineup better than a bester 1200 followed by a snow white (followed by a dried off snow white for uber sharpness). The snow white won't be for every body though mainly because of the soak but don't perma factor, but if your willing to put up with that and learn to use it to its full potential its out of this world and a very good buy.

W.R.T using a 4-6k stone between the 1k and the snow white, its definitly not necessary. When its soaked the SW eats throught the 1k scratches. However, I have tried using it splashed then wiped dry at times just as a finish stone in a 3 stone setup (Sig 1k, followed by Sig 6k, followed by dry SW8k); it works very well like that and becasue you are just using it for a few final light passes you can get away wihout soaking it in that case. That's what makes it so cool, its a very flexible stone.

BTW, how fast is that takeshi 10k stone of yours?

[David Weaver]

It's probably similar to every other stone in that grit rating, maybe similar to a cho 10k. Even that kitayama stone will cut clean if it's fast and there's a slurry on it, the difference between stones seems to (to me) how they behave after they have 10-15 strokes on them

The takeshi 10k had a skin on it, it was not impressive at first. A single lapping took it off, though. Now when it's soaked, it's got a feel a lot like a 10,000 grit bester. It sheds a little while you use it, not too much - you can keep enough slop going on it to keep an edge from getting the bright hard-stone polish you'll get elsewhere. I don't know if it can be permasoaked, but I don't have any reason to test it and ruin it, I guess.

It is not quite as fine and bright as the stones labeled in the micron and sub-micron range (15k pro, 16k glass, and the sp 13k which is a notch finer yet than those), but it's probably as fast as a clean 15k pro (which is a really fast stone when freshly lapped, keeping it clean with fresh abrasive is a different matter, though), and a bit faster than the other two.

It's a good bargain stone, but it won't have the longevity of a shapton or chosera probably - though very few people are threats to wear out a polish stone regardless. I can see since I bought mine exactly one person has bought one - nobody likes to take chances :)

[Chris Griggs]

I wonder if anyone (Stu) knows what the micron ratings on the Cho 10k and the Snow White are. No reason to want to know other than curiosity to know how close they actually are in that respect.

[David Weaver]

I'd have to guess the chosera was probably in the 1.25-1.5 range. I could be wrong. On plain steel through A2, the speed and the level of polish are really a trick.

[Chris Griggs]

That's about my guess. I was thinking both the Cho 10k and the SW are around 1.2, with the Cho 10k being just a touch finer. I believe stu told me that the Sig 10k I had was around 1.2 and it seems right about at the same level of sharpness as both the Cho10 and SW. Obviously, I could be way off also...

[David Weaver]

Adding data, the pro 15 was listed as 0.98, the 12k cream, I think is 1.2 or so, and the glass 16k says 0.92 right on it as far as I can recall, and the 30k 0.5.

I think I've seen the 13k listed as 0.73, and the edge feels it when you sharpen with it.

I just googled the stones and saw a listing on a knife forum that says the 10k chosera is 1.5 micron. Who knows if that's accurate or what it means (avg, disparity, etc). it imparts a polish and sharpness that's really good for that grit size if that's correct.

[Archie England]

The feel and fun factor of using the Snow White 8k is fantastic! Since becoming a sharpening "addict," I really enjoy the stones that provide more feedback--that would be Chosera (or Cho-like) stones. Oh, almost forgot to mention my caveat--I'm talking about bevels here; Sigma Power stones rule the world (IMO) for blade backs!!!!!! Besters get the honorable mention in all categories, especially the Bester 1200.

And I will affirm Chris' assessment of the slight difference between the SW8K and the Cho10k. The SW works better for me than the Cho 10k. Now, the comparison wasn't fair at all--I had a cracked edge-pro slice of a Cho 10k to compare with a brand new Snow White 8k. The larger surface was obviously better suited for testing. But, in terms of sheer output, the 8k equalled the 10k in sharpness--though the 10k may have yielded a slightly smoother edge. Maybe. For those of us using the Sigma Power or Select II stones, our 10k and 13k stones yield equal edges and polish--beautifully so! However, the feel of the magnesia bonded stone (Chosera, SW, or Fujibato) is much more satisfying than everything else I've tried to-date. Sharp is sharp, regardless of how one achieves that edge.

Chris, best wishes for you guys as you head to Philly!!!!

[Chris Griggs]

Yes, I suppose I should have been clearer about just how tiny my little piece of Cho10 is. It wasn't a fair comparison in terms of total feel, but in terms of output and general stone characteristics I have no reason to believe that our comparison is inaccurate. Actually, I thought the little surface on the slice of 10k felt sweet, and I quite enjoy using it despite it's small size, but obviously a side by side comparison of the two full sized stones would be fairer.

Also, I'll add that of the SW8k, the Cho10k, the Sig 10k, and the Sig 13K - the 13 is, to me anyway, the only one that produces an edge that is noticeably sharper than any of the others. Although, the other 3 give an edge that is as sharp or sharper then 99% of us probably need 99% of the time.

[Richard Jones]

"WARNING!!!! IF YOU ARE SICK AND TIRED OF READING ABOUT SHARPENING, WATER STONES, AND OTHER THINGS THAT HAVE A BIGGER IMPACT ON YOUR POCKET BOOK THEN YOUR ACTUAL WOODWORKING THEN READ NO FURTHER!!!!! YOU'VE BEEN WARNED...."

Where's the fun in that? :D I think sometimes I do a little woodworking so I can justify more stuff.

I just got a Gesshin 8k that is some kind of nice. Also getting good reviews, as is that Snow White.

[David Weaver]

Are the gesshins kind of muddy? They look muddy on the knife videos online. I have no idea how much they cost, either, but I'm guessing they're not cheap based on the presentation in the videos.

[Chris Griggs]

Archie has the Gesshin 4k, which I've used, but I haven't used the 8k. The 4k is very nice, very fast and yes its muddy, but not in the way that say the Rika 5k is. Its more like a 4k version of the bester 1200. Its a good stone, that nice to use, not to hard and not too soft.

[Chris Vandiver]

Many of the Japanese carpenters that I have worked with use the Naniwa 8k Ebi(shrimp) stone as their polish stone. Their typical sharpening routine is a 1000 or 1200 stone and then to the 8000 Ebi stone. Of course Japanese carpenter's sharpening prowess is second to none, something to keep in mind when purchasing stones on a budget.

Note: The 8k Ebi stone I'm referring to is the same as what Chris refers to as the 8k snow white stone. This stone was first made popular by the Kezuro-kai events (planing contests) in Japan.

[Chris Griggs]

Note: The 8k Ebi stone I'm referring to is the same as what Chris refers to as the 8k snow white stone. This stone was first made popular by the Kezuro-kai events (planing contests) in Japan.

I thought the Ebi stones were the Superstones? Or is the Ebi brand used on any number of Naniwa's?

[Chris Vandiver]

The Naniwa 8k that I have I got before the Superstones came out. They are referred to as Ebi(shrimp) stones but I guess it's possible that Naniwa uses the Ebi logo on more than one model line of stones. Logos aside, the Naniwa 8k Ebi stone is a very good stone that is highly regarded in Japan.

[Chris Griggs]

I just checked online and the Superstones, as well as the snow white 8k have a picture of a shrimp on them. So my stone could very well be the "Ebi" stone you have and are referring to. Thanks for the info Chris. Fun stuff.

[Chris Vandiver]

The Naniwa Superstones don't require soaking but the Naniwa 8k white stone does. It is not part of the Superstone line up.

[David Weaver]

It's not easy to find much naniwa stuff other than the regular superstone and chosera stuff pitched to us.

I recall someone saying that choseras are pretty much all over high-end knife shops in japan (presumably natural stones are also).

Takeshi Kuroda is discussed in some old search engine threads as having the 8k ebi, but he no longer does, though he does have slightly better prices on choseras than we get over here (i got my 3k choser from him). He doesn't, however, have the 10k chosera. You must have to be in some club or something to get a hold of it. When I was getting mine (which I hooked off of someone who got it as a gift and never bothered to even open the box, so I got a tidy discount), I looked around for the 10k chosera. Apparently, they were available for a time in the EU for about half what they are now. I guess that got rectified pretty quickly.

I have to think that the price (and I've seen joel say that even at the price they are, the cost to TFWW is such that he's not making a lot on them) that naniwa is pricing them as a prestige item, and it's not because their cost of manufacture dictates it. I could be wrong, that's just my opinion. When fujibato throws a stone on ebay and pays to ship it for $38 and it has a magnesia binder, it does give you a little jolt. The chosera lit has described it as being able to cut tougher stainless alloys (i.e., they're pointing it at knife users when they say that), and I haven't been overwhelmed by HSS with the 10k, but I probably need to give it a proper soak before I think about how well it does. I have so little HSS stuff (three planes), and so little want for more, that it's just a matter of curiosity. There are already great mediums to sharpen it (powered tools, diamonds, etc) that until the stones cut it as fast as diamonds and are hard, it seems like one would be better off getting stones that sharpen O1 and A2 well, rather than compromising to get stones that sharpen HSS well, but don't have the characteristics of a good plain steel stone.

Anyway, it is odd that we get the SS and the chosera, but the line of older stones (lobster, shrimp, etc) are not sold here with just a few exceptions ( and some foreign ebay sellers). It's not like we get the whole shapton line, either, I guess.

[Richard Jones]

"Are the Gesshins muddy?" I have the 2K and 8K and they are somewhat but not overly muddy. I think King's are a muddy stone and they're nothing like that (in more ways than one!). Even less than a Chosera 5k, but different, hard to explain. Slurry is very fine and floaty and not as sticky as a 10KSS. So far I am very, very pleased with them. The step from 2k to 8k is no problem.

[Chris Griggs]

The Naniwa Superstones don't require soaking but the Naniwa 8k white stone does. It is not part of the Superstone line up.

Correct the white 8k is definitly not a super stone. Sorry, I think i confused things. I was just saying that it looks like the Ebi branding is used on a number of stones and thus agreeing that your stone and my stone could be the same thing.

[Archie England]

Are the gesshins kind of muddy? They look muddy on the knife videos online. I have no idea how much they cost, either, but I'm guessing they're not cheap based on the presentation in the videos.

Blasted price of Gesshin stones equals and/or exceeds that of Chosera stones!!!!

Orlando lent me his 4k and 8k Gesshin stones. I used them for several days and initially thought, "Meh!" However, extended use of the Gesshin 4k has made a believer out of me: it's one great stone. Now, the Chosera 3k equals it in all areas but one--staying wet. The Gesshin can soak alongside a Sigma or Bester...forever. The Chosera should never be soaked for over an hour, tops! (thanks, Stu, for that info) Both stones are fabulous hones!!!!!! My Cho 3k makes and sustains mud better than the Gesshin 4k; but, the Cho 3k has better tactile feedback. Both cut fast; both leave a high polished edge. The Gesshin ends up looking like a Sigma Power, all black stained and streaked but quickly refreshes when flattened; the Cho 3k after wiped down looks like it was never used. They're both hard stones--really hard. But, both are easy stones to work on . . . very smooth! And, for the record, 90+% of sharpening could easily stop at the 3/4k stone.!.!.!.! Yes, the 6/8/10/13 etc stones are great, especially for end grain; but the 3/4k stones leave a superb edge that doesn't really need anything further than deburring. Gosh, did I just admit that?! :)

[Jessica Pierce-LaRose]

You guys have to stop doing this stuff to me . . . I have "replace my superstones" on my wish list (further down the line than most things, but still there . . .) and my head just starts swimming with options. I guess more than anything, I need to figure out how to put into words what exactly I don't really care for about the SuperStones and work backwards from there . . .

[Chris Griggs]

Sorry Josh.

Keep in mind that we probably over-hype a lot of this stuff, because we have a somewhat impractical interest in stones. Of course, I guess it's good that others can learn from David and Archie's and others investment in their curiosities. Also in realitym some of the differences between stones, in the high grit stones in particular, are pretty small. I've been fortunate that I've been able to try Archie's array of stones which has helped me to get a better idea of what I like and do not like. You certainly do not need to replace your superstones, but if I were in your shoes I'd start by just replacing your 1k. My understanding (based on info from Stu) is that speed is where superstones lack, so that would probably make the biggest difference in your lineup. If you want to try a different type of stone than what you have without breaking the bank the bester 1200 is really a good option. Its quite hard, and my understanding is the the superstones are quite soft so it would give you a good idea/contrast of what you like and don't like, plus you'd end up with a stone that cuts fast, doesn't dish, and generally works really well. For a full stone setup I still do not think there is a better all around package out there than Stus 1-6-13-atoma package, but you certainly don't need to replace all your stones at once, and if you just replaced your 1k with say a Bester 1.2 I do not think you'd end up wishing for anything else at the 1k level.

[Jessica Pierce-LaRose]

The 1k is certainly the one that's got to get replaced first, simply because it's the one I can notice is much thinner from re-flattening than the other two. It's also the one that seems to be the lest well attached to the base it's glued to.

The 5K I actually like a lot. The 8k, I wish it was a little faster, and maybe would do a better job of pulling off the burr from the previous stones. I find I really need to hit the back of the blade with each stone if I go through all three, but I need to experiment more.

I definitely think I'd like something a little harder - I've learned to get by pretty well with the softness of the stones with care, though.

They aren't perfect, and maybe if I had spent a little more on some oil stones I wouldn't be thinking of replacing my stones, but they get the job done, and I like them a lot better than sandpaper!

I think for sharpening gear, I really need to think about picking up some stuff for curved edges before I bother replacing my flat edged stones. It's kind of what's making me hold back on picking up a few more gouges I'd like. Those chris pye slips have been calling my name.

[Stuart Tierney]

Blasted price of Gesshin stones equals and/or exceeds that of Chosera stones!!!!




One word.

Gokumyo.


Take some brave pills and google it.


Stu.


(Waiting for the delivery truck...)

[Archie England]

Is this a new product for you?

BTW, your 1200 Sigma Power is quite the stone. It equals (bevels) and exceeds my Cho 1000 (on blade backs) and is much smoother/silkier than the Bester 1200. For just a little more than the Bester, a person can get the Sigma 1200 and have the fine and fast cut of a Chosera 1000 along with the polish, hardness, dish resistance, and feel of other tactile stones. The Sigma 1200 is a really good stone; it's better than the 1000 hard; and that's hard to believe.

And after searching Gokumyo, I've learned there's even more costly stones in the sharpening pond--no thanks :) !

[David Weaver]

I don't know,...$47 delivered (Bester 1200 from Takeshi) vs. in the neighborhood of $75-80. That's a pretty substantial difference. I guess it's all hypothetical, though. I would buy either one at either price if I needed one, with the 1k shapton when you could get it for $45 still being my favorite because my shop will again be 45 degrees next winter. I like the soakers in the summer, though, but my hands ache thinking about pulling them out of the shop pond in the winter.

It's better to pay that percentage difference for performance on a 1k stone, though. It saves more time than you'd get on a high $ finish stone and the difference in $$s is a lot more on a finish stone (especially the gokumyo 20k at $409 vs. the SP 13k at about a third of that). In all honesty, the gokumyo is probably a much better buy than a similar priced natural stone. It would be finer and probably faster cutting than a coarser natural stone.

I just got a big spyderco UF in the mail last night. Talk about different! Some day, I'll go around the bend and sell all of my stones at once and keep two sets.

I remember when I got my first set of stones, I skimped on the polish stone (and got a king 6k instead of 8k) because I was mortified by the cost of three king stones just to sharpen something.

[Chris Griggs]

I still have my first stone... a norton 1k/8k combo stone. I remember being shocked at what a big investment it was. It served me well and I still maintain its a good place to start for the budget conscious. You can get quite a sharp blade off a Norton 8k even though its 3 micron. It just sits in a box in my shop now, so I'll probably just give it away one of these days to a newbie woodworker.

So on another note, I've discovered something interesting (to me anyway) about my SW8K that I'm wondering if it applies to the Choseras. I've read some things that market the Chosera's a spalsh and go stones, however, I don't know anyone who uses them that doesn't soak them for at least a few minutes...this seems to apply to the SW as well. But what I've noticed in the SW8K over that last few days is that even though it works much better with soaker, when its dry and first wetted it doesn't absorb water the way most soaker stones do. Rather the water just sorta sits on top the way it does on typical splash and go stones. After noticing this I started experimenting with it as a splash and go; it actually worked ok as a splash and go (and is getting better as it breaks in) but not as well as when soaked. The cool thing was, after wetting the stone, I randomly walked away from it like 15 minutes leaving it sitting on my bench, and when I came back and started using it again it behaved like it had been soaking. So anyway, the point of all this rambling is to say that its not quite a splash an go, but its not a soaker either...more of a "wet and wait".... there really doesn't seem to be any need to immerse it in water for any amount of time.. Once you wet it well and let it sit for 10-20 minutes, it works like its been soaked until it dries out completely again. So basically after the first wetting its good to go for the rest of the time in the shop with maybe just a additional splash of water when you are ready to hone on it, making it a much more convenient stone to use then I first thought.

I tried this on my little piece of 10k and the same seemed to apply, but I wonder if it would on a full size Cho 10k, and I'm curious to know if it would work on the lower grit choseras. So anyone who has them, please give this a try and let us know what you find out. I have a Chosera 800 (don't ask) arriving tomorrow so when I get it I'm going to do the same experiment on it.

[David Weaver]

This is the case with a chosera. If you use it enough times in a session, it'll behave "soft" like it would when it was soaked. If you're doing something careful where you conserve water (like honing a razor) the 10k will pull in the water and you'll need to keep adding it to the stone. But it isn't like the instant loss of a big pool of water like you'll see on a bester 1200 (which looks like a time lapse of a pond drying up if it hasn't been soaked).

It's just a bit skippy feeling until it's soaked in a few doses of water if it's not soaked. I usually don't soak it, knowing that it would work better if I did, but that it'll work fine if I don't.

I haven't yet soaked the 3k, which archie mentioned as being silky feeling. Splash and go, it's definitely a hard stone. I got the SPII and the 3k chosera to compare a while ago (because I don't like going all the way down to 1000 on japanese smoothers that are high $$ irons and that are never allowed to really dull). The SPII was to replace my sloppy tanba aoto, and it's like a faster cutting (But still soft) version that offers uniform work. It doesn't separate itself from the chosera, though, until you get to HSS - and then it does.

I don't mind a soft stone at that cut level (because i was already used to using a tanba aoto, and a muddier stone i have not seen), but I should probably have never bought either of them and just gotten the bester 2k instead. Curiosity made me want to get something different, though, since I already had a couple of besters.

One thing that irks me a little bit is every new generation of stones that comes along is 1 1/2 times more expensive (or more - and it's among all brands - what is shapton thinking with glasstone prices for so little abrasive?) than the last generation of stones, but for day-to-day sharpening, I don't really see anywhere close to that in performance difference if you're just sharpening and not trying to find a stone that is fractionally better for curiosity's sake.

[Chris Griggs]

I think the SW is a bit denser then the Cho10. Yesterday I got home from work and, as an experiment, put a big puddle of water on top of it dry before taking my dog for a walk. When I came back a good 45 minutes later the puddle of water was still sitting on top of the stone the way I'd left it and the stone was softer then I felt it yet (I hadn't dared soak it for that long). Its a small thing put it really nice because I'd rather not have to worry about forgetting the stone in the water if I get in the habit of dropping it in the bucket when I go into the shop. Now I can just take it out put a big puddle of water on it, know that it will be ready for use when I need it, and not need to worry about damaging it.

Anyway, I know I said don't ask, but I ordered the Cho800 yesterday, kind of on impulse/as a reward to myself after receiving some good news, but also because as I've gotten more comfortable with honing on a flat bevel I've gotten lazy about refreshing my hollow grinds and have been wanting something a little faster then my 1k to start the rehoning process or when removing micro fracture in a cutting edge that don't require actual regrinding. I figure, if I don't like it or use it, I can just sell it to Archie, since its a stone he doesn't have yet:)

You're right though Dave, more and more I'm seeing that there is a serious law of diminishing returns happening when upgrading from an already good stone. You either need to care enough/appreciate the small imporvements and options that additional stones offer you or you just need to be curious for the fun of it. I ahve no duplicate grits yet and I intend to keep it that way, but I'm enough stone curious/ethusiastic that I wouldn't mind filling in inbetween some of my other grits even though theres not a lot to be gained from it.

[David Weaver]

Yeah, that water would disappear off of a chosera 10k (i can't remember if they had a skin when they were new).

It'll be interesting to see whether or not you can tell the difference between an 800 and a 1000 stone. I don't think I'd be able to, but then again, there are some 800 stones that are the same grit size as 1000s.

Who did you order it from, CKTG?

[Mike Holbrook]

You guys are getting under my skin too! I have sent Stu too much money for stones before you guys started this thread! Apparently some of these stones are sold under different names?

I had a couple Shaptons from back before Stu or Joel were around, or at least before I discovered them. I tired to build around those two stones which I now think was a mistake. I bought Sigma Power Select II stones two of them: 6,000 & 10,000 to start. I had a Shapton 2,000 stone because way back then there were no 1,000 stones available. Later on I tried to round out my collection by buying two Sigma Power stones: #120 & 3F Carbon #700 and a Sigma Power Select II 3,000. I, like several others here, was influenced by Orlando who seemed to have tried about every stone I had ever heard of.

I still wonder if I need a 1000, 1,200 stone which is why I am following this post and trying to ferret out whether or not one of the stones you guys are going on about would fit my collection? The jump from my 3F-700 to the 3,000 sometimes feels a little long. I sharpen a good many super knife steels as well as HSS, A2 and forged plane & chisel blades which is why I went with the Select II stones.

[Chris Griggs]

Yeah, that water would disappear off of a chosera 10k (i can't remember if they had a skin when they were new).

It'll be interesting to see whether or not you can tell the difference between an 800 and a 1000 stone. I don't think I'd be able to, but then again, there are some 800 stones that are the same grit size as 1000s.

Who did you order it from, CKTG?

Yep CTKG. Man they ship fast. I ordered it a 1pm yesterday and its already arriving tomorrow! Everything I read about was that it was pretty much like the 1k just a touch faster, which is why I wanted it. My plan is less to use it as a coarse stone and more to use it instead of my Sig 1k when I want something with a little more Umfff. A 1k n steroids. I suspect that either the Sig 1k or the Cho 800 will be preferred in most cases and the other will end up sitting dry in a box most of the time.

[David Weaver]

A lot of the coarse stones do HSS knives fine. It's the finer stones, especially the dense and less friable stones, that don't do them well.

You don't need anything, for sure. Whether or not you want something is a different story. If budget is important, I'd buy the bester 1.2k, if not, it sounds like everyone likes stu's new 1.2k as the best 1k range stone yet.

if the 3f stone leaves a good finish, that and the shapton 2 to the 10k would be my routine to avoid buying any other stones. With some touch, you could go right from the 700 to the 10,000. Touch meaning you can do your primary work with the 700 and lift the edge about a degree on the 10,000 and make a minimal number of passes to get a polished edge. That way, you don't have a rank microbevel and you can literally work the next dulled edge with the 700 again as the work done by the 10k stone will be run off very quickly. Unless you're rounding the entire bevel, it's kind of hard to get away with that method if there is more than one stone where you intend to lift the edge. At least hard to get away with it if you intend to rework a hollow grind quickly with the 700 again.

We all have too many stones. We'd all be better off with less curiosity, a bench grinder and two stones.

[Chris Griggs]

Mike, here's what you need...

A Viel belt grinder and/or a baldor bench grinder, followed by a Sig 120, followed by a Sig Select II 220, followed by a King 300, followed by a Sig 400, followed by a Bester 500, followed by a Chosera 600, followed by your Sig 3f 700, followed by a Chosera 800, followed by Sigma 1000, followed by a Sigma 1200, followed by a Shapton 1500, followed by your Shapton 2000, followed by a Select II 3000 or Chosera 3000, followed by a Gesshin or Imanishi 4000, followed by a Chosera 5000, followed by a Sigma 6000, followed by a Snow White 8000, followed by your Sigma 10000, followed by a Shapton 12000, followed by a Sigma 13000, followed by a Shapton 30000 and topped of with some .025 micron spray on the smooth side of a horse butt strop. Of course, if you plan to do any turning then you'll be needing a Tormek as well ;)


....or better yet , what Dave said....

[Mike Holbrook]

Chrissy,

What makes you think I wasn't holding out and have all that now???? I do have a Grainger belt sander with enough belts to scare you. I have the Tormek too, anyone want a deal on one? I hate the thing.

I can't believe I got a lecture on too many stones or heck too many anything from these guys!

[David Weaver]

If I could snapshot my stone collection into 6 stones with no effort, I'd do it.

My biggest issue is that I have *gobs* of natural stones that I'll never see half the money back on. I don't know how many natural stones I have, at least a dozen, and none of them are garbage. Some of them weren't too expensive but more than half of them were $200+, and I personally don't see the value in them at those rates after using them for a while, at least not for someone who isn't using them just to use them.

The few that will yield a finer edge than a very good $130 synthetic stone are not practical for woodworking, and the rest do take a lot of skill to get a very fine edge out of.

So I sort of say "don't buy too many stones" in jest, but I kind of wish (out of an effort issue) that I had one natural stone for woodworking and one for razors, and no others. And I have a lot of duplicate synthetic types - they all work well. I could dump every synthetic pretty easily, except for one or two finishers.

I like the spyderco so far, though. It might be enough to get me to dump my oilstones.

As an aside, there is one method I think that on a budget is better than any of these stones. Bill tindall mentions it every time, that he uses an ez lap diamond plate (that still looks great under his microscope pictures - yes he actually took pictures of the surface under a microscope) and 1 micron diamond on a cast plate. That will sharpen everything, and I gather if you have any old plane soles lying around, the total freight for all of it would be about $65.

I should've gone that route. no chance for diamond contamination and you'd never care what steel you were sharpening, because HSS sharpens on diamonds at the same rate carbon steel does. No chance of scoring a stone with a carving tool, either.

[Chris Griggs]

Chrissy,

What makes you think I wasn't holding out and have all that now???? I do have a Grainger belt sander with enough belts to scare you. I have the Tormek too, anyone want a deal on one? I hate the thing.

I can't believe I got a lecture on too many stones or heck too many anything from these guys!

For the record, for once, I actually wasn't making fun of you...that was more intended as a general make fun of all of us. But since you brought it up.... I think you have more stones than I do, so I'd be well within my rights to give you a lecture :).

In all seriousness you should really just take a trip down here and go visit Archie's garage, yo will leave there knowing exactly what you like and don't like, what you want, and what you need in sharpening stones.

If I like my Cho800 enough, I'll ship you my Sig 1k to play with so a that you can get a better idea of if you want to get one for yourself or not....sorry you'll have to send it back to me though.

Heck, I"ll ship it to you to play with regardless. PM me your address if you want to play around with it for a while.

[Chris Griggs]

It'll be interesting to see whether or not you can tell the difference between an 800 and a 1000 stone. I don't think I'd be able to, but then again, there are some 800 stones that are the same grit size as 1000s.

Who did you order it from, CKTG?

FYI here's what the owner of CKTG said on a knife forum about the Cho800 compared to the Cho1k:

"It cuts faster than the 1k and has just a touch more grittyness in terms of feel. I agree with the others that you can use this as your foundations sharpening stone or the 1K but you really don't need both."

Also, FWIW, yes Stus 1200 (Arch has one) is the best stone in the 1k ish range I've used. It's not that much better in any single respect, but its just a little bit better then comparable stones in every way... I'm not going to run out and replace my Sig 1k with it, but if I were buying for the first time, it would be the top pick.

[Archie England]

The smoking gun (perfect stone) is the one that you like and does what you want! Fortunately, most of the stones we've mentioned will perform so well that it/they could really be each person's special stone--btw, don't we all rave about our "pet" stones! Too many stones? Heck no; it's like having too many tools.... Just saying! It took me awhile to discover the process that worked well for me; that's what everyone has to find. The vintage wisdom, "stick with a system long enough to learn it," is true enough; but, sometimes a person may have to sort through those systems that are less likely to discover those that, for them, really are more likely to produce consistent results. Chris and others arrived at sharpness very differently than I did; but he and I learned how to free hand sharpen about the same time. What didn't work so well with Oil stones (but they worked better than sandpaper) worked really well with my Nortons (both of us had Norton kits). My disgust for and need of a 220 stone lead me to try other stones--that's when I started reading on-line reviews. In the end, every option of stones work! The one that "works" best for me is just what I like the best (or better than that other stone...). IMO the lower grit waterstones are the best kept secret in sharpening. I can't find any flaw in the lowly King Deluxe 300--it stays flat and works great--better than a Cho 400 but not as well as a Sigma 400 (or Gesshin 400, according to Orlando). I'm getting really good results with a 300/400 followed by a 600 then 1000 or 1200 then 3k or 4k then a 6k Sigma Power. The SP 6k is one of the best stones I've ever had the privilege to use--it alone can achieve end grain parring but when followed by a higher grit stone (8/10/13 or whatever) is even more noticeably better at slicing such grain. Beyond 6k is overkill (and 6k might be) for most planing operations. Having various grits is just a simple way (but expensive) to start where an edge needs treatment. I love resharpening long before "dull" ever hits; likewise, I despise having to grind out a chipped or folded edge. But it's all good when wood cuts in precisely the way we want it to do so. Not all sharpening may be fun, but it's absolutely necessary! We can't all afford to buy a new chisel every time one dulls :)

BTW, I highly respect you guys who sharpen differently than I do and achieve such consistent results. I'm learning and am just a tad slower on the learning curve to get there. In the end, owning and using stones (of whatever kind) is akin to owning chisels: you don't have to buy a complete set but you certainly can do so. I'm glad I use a range of stones like I do chisels! It's satisfying to pull out the right tool for the job! Wait, there's a genuinely good principle expressed there--the best tool for a job is the correct one?!

No rant intended...just sharing the results of a slow steady "sharpening" education. Like my friends used to say, "smoke'm if you got'm!"

[Billy Trinh]

This thread got me interested in a finishing stone. I currently use a 600,1200 dmt diamond stone(red and green) and finish using 2000 sand paper and green compound on mdf. Would you recommend this sw8k or the shapton8k as a finishing stone? Or something else? Thanks!

[Archie England]

SW8K or a Sigma Power 8k or a Sigma 10K or a Sigma 13k or a Shapton 15k.... :)

Bang for buck, the first two above will be hard to beat! Chris is finding his SN8k to be a fabulous finishing stone, which is far exceeding what he had experienced with the old-style Sigma 10k (not to be confused with the current 10k offered by Stu at Tools from Japan). David and other Shapton Pro users will have to give you their perspective; but, it appears that most of us agree that 8k is about where "need" meets "want" in terms of a really sharp edge. What you'd be replacing is the green compound, because that's effectively what the 8k stone addresses. Chris has been using green compound, too; but, he tells me that the Snow White is just far more reliable, consistent, and fun to use. So, it's a matter of preference and money. In the end, as Wilbur Pan has shown, any path that gets you--gets you there!

[David Weaver]

Yeah, the 8k level is great, and probably more practical than any of the 1 micron stones because it cuts faster. If anyone is getting to the edge and not feeling like they have a really good edge with an 8k stone, then they maybe haven't gotten rid of the wire edge completely. Bare (clean, too) leather after an 8k stone should make an edge that shaves hair completely in one pass without making any noise.

Practicality related to cutting speed not because you can make half as many passes, but because you're less likely to not polish a back well enough if the stone cuts faster.

I like the green stuff OK, but on a soft substrate, the wax is a bit hard. I'm assuming those sticks are in wax because it makes them a lot easier to apply to buffing wheels, but who knows?

[Chris Griggs]

I'm liking the SW8k because its hardness gives it some flexibility. Its a versatile stone. When its at its best the SW8k is very nice to use... hard, but creamy and smooth and it gives a phenominal edge that seems above 8k. The down side is its very high density can make it kind of skippy at times, and I'm still kinda figuring it out. Also, just to elaborate the "skippyness" issue, I'll admit that this is a problem I've had on a few stones (even with the Cho10 which is super nice and smooth), so I think its something about my freehand technique...i'm not sure everyone has this problem. I've found that longer soaking helps this in all case though.

I wouldn't say that the SW8k "far exceeds" the previous finishing stone I was using which is the Sigma back-catalogue 10k Archie mentioned - maybe I gave that impression over my excitement over the new stone. The back-catalogue stone is a little easier to use in some cases, since it a bit softer, and its quite inexpensive for a 10k stone. The back catalogue Sig 10k could be the top pick winner for a "feel" stone on a budget (Stu, you really should start listing it). It (the old Sig 10) is one of those stone that just kinda works no matter what but at the same time doesn't seem to have any hidden qualities to unlock, and while its not super soft you can gouge it fairly easily if you not careful. I'm liking the SW8k better because I'm into harder stones at the moment, because its fast (though the back-catalogue 10k is also pretty fast), and because I feel like I can push it to beyond is grit range.

Unfortunately, I can't comment on the shapton 8k, because I've never used it. I'd say if you are abosultey opposed to soaking I guess go with the Shapton, if you don't mind soaking my guess it the SW8k might be a more versatile stone in the long run, but I can't say that with any certainty.