Upgrade or not? Rod S. is a bad influence on me . . .

[Patrick McCarthy]

Have used my PM 66 for 6-8 years, and have considered getting a SS due to the safety features . . . but have also lusted after a euro slider but generally thought too expensive (5 kids thru college and law/grad school, now into paying for weddings mode), happy enough with the 66 etc. Going to redo kitchen and make some interior doors, so I recently ordered a new PM 2700 shaper with a power feeder (paid for it but not yet delivered) and then started pricing tooling ......... OMG . . . . what an eye-opener.

Several times x12 Rod Sheridan has posted re his Hammer B3 Winner and this morning he had the audacity to post a link to the Felder-Hammer website. Foolishly I clicked on it and now I am wondering if I wouldn't be better selling the PM66 and the 2700 shaper, and instead getting a B3 Winner ., . . . . . . i can rationalize it all day long, such as better dust control, slider is safer, etc . . . . .

Next, Rod is going to get me to buy a BMW motorcycle too . . . . . definately a bad, bad influence on me . . . . and he seems like such a nice guy . . . . for one of those from up north (just kidding Rod, i really find your posts helpful and informative) . . .

Anyone previously find themselves in my situation? A month or two ago I was tempted to buy the mini max cu 300 smart someone was selling, but hesitated . . . . .

any thoughts about whether it makes more sense to go euro or do i just have upgrade-itis???

[David Hawxhurst]

just go euro.

[frank shic]

...or get an exaktor sliding table!

[Mike Ruggeri]

I went from being happy with my unisaw to extremely happy with my Minimax CU300. Once you get used to working on a euro slider, it is hard to ever think of going back to a traditional american table saw.

[Patrick McCarthy]

Well Frank, that is kinda my point: does it make sense to keep adding separate pieces (already added flip-up outfeed table), or should i just regroup now that i understand the WWing process better, and get a saw shaper with the slider designed into it from the start? A full combo machine wouldn't be my first choice, but the saw shaper seems to make sense. . . . and the Hammer tool-porn video makes it seem like a better idea . . .

[frank shic]

hey, if you can swing it financially and get it past your wife (see our previous deviant post on how to do this lol) and it makes you happy, go for it.

[David Kumm]

In the used market the saw shaper is a good deal. The shaper adds about 2K to the value vs about 4-5K for new. There are times when you wish for a regular saw for backup as you don't want to break down the shaper in the middle of a job to cut some pieces. It is also generally easier to mount a feeder on a Saw Shaper than on a combo- depends on the model. A feeder is a pretty necessary option when dealing with big cutters. Dave

[Rod Sheridan]

[QUOTE=Patrick McCarthy;1922916]
Several times x12 Rod Sheridan has posted re his Hammer B3 Winner and this morning he had the audacity to post a link to the Felder-Hammer website. Foolishly I clicked on it and now I am wondering if I wouldn't be better selling the PM66 and the 2700 shaper, and instead getting a B3 Winner ., . . . . . . i can rationalize it all day long, such as better dust control, slider is safer, etc . . . . .

Next, Rod is going to get me to buy a BMW motorcycle too . . . . . definately a bad, bad influence on me . . . . and he seems like such a nice guy . . . . for one of those from up north (just kidding Rod, i really find your posts helpful and informative) . . .

QUOTE]

231824231825


Photo #1, the "nice guys from up north"

Photo #2, Our bikes in beautiful Vermont in 2008.

Resistance really is futile LOL.................Rod.

[Peter Quinn]

I too have a 66' and several shapers at this point, one with an old school slider that is bulky but effective. If I had the money I'd dump it all in a heart beat for a winner combo saw shaper. I use a few sliders at work and its a great way to go. The slider on my shaper has made some end grain work possible that would otherwise have been very challenging. Switching to a combo would require some changes to the production process. Ideally the saw and shaper would be separate and both have a slider, and there would be plenty of space to use them each effectively. I see the combo as a compromise, but one that may be well worth it in many small shops given the added cost and space the singles would require. I often leave a shaper or two set up throughout a project, and use the third as my float. Even more often I go from saw to shaper in a run and rip sequence for moldings, which would be more challenging on a combo. Sometimes when setting up double sided panels I'll take a test pass, check the fit, cut off the panel tongue, take another test pass, etc. tough to with a combo too. Making back bands I like to shape them then dado out the rabbit on the cabinet saw in one sequence of set ups. But you can change these sorts of methods to accommodate the combo, and having a 70+" slider on a saw shaper would be a great incentive to do so IMO.

[Rick Fisher]

Once you start to dabble in Euro equipment you realize how a machine should be made .. The cost is prohibitive, but after the pain in the wallet passes, you have a truly nice machine ..

I would look at used and look at a 3Ph system .. It will actually cost you less because the used market is beaten up with big inventories..

I have 5 x Euro machines, not including power feeders and there is no comparison .. You start to realize that bang for the buck, the used Euro machines are hard to beat ..

I purchased 3 of my Euro Machines used, and one was a trade show demo. Its no big deal, they are simple machines, but build much heavier and more precise than the Asian imports we call domestic machines today..

You should listen to Rod.. he is wise .. And Canadian.. which is even better.

[Patrick McCarthy]

[QUOTE=You should listen to Rod.. he is wise .. And Canadian.. which is even better.[/QUOTE]


I am already starting to feel the assimilation process beginning . . . .

[Chris Tsutsui]

I see two paths...

1. Upgrade and reap the rewards of owning the things you want in your life. People tend to get more satisfaction from an item they pay a lot for. If an upgrade adds safety, then the upgrade is "insurance" to prevent something awful from happening. On the flip side, some people feel guilt that they spent too much and find out that their purchase didn't make them a better woodworker.

2. Use what you have. (Notice I didn't say "appreciate" what you have because that sort of "thinking" leads to the upgrade bug). If a woodworker is busy with a project, then they will be focused on working, measurements and planning. All of the haunting hindsights they had about a tool are replaced with strategies on how to use that tool to its potential.

Eventually people achieve maximum proficiency in a tool or machine... With that comes a level of boredom which justifies upgrade. :)

[James Baker SD]

I would look at used and look at a 3Ph system .. It will actually cost you less because the used market is beaten up with big inventories..

You should listen to Rod.. he is wise .. And Canadian.. which is even better.

Rick, I am a hobbyist catagory woodworker, but like nice equipment. Do you recommend 3PH for someone like me and if so, could you add a couple of reasons? My shop is my garage and single phase only residential service.

James

[Ryan Hellmer]

I'd recommend Euro and 3 phase. You can get a good rotary converter kit and supply the idler yourself for well less than $500. And once you get used to the slider (and I imagine the combo) you'd never know how you lived without them. As for the money, start demanding it back from those freeloadin' kids.

Ryan

[Rod Sheridan]

Rick, I am a hobbyist catagory woodworker, but like nice equipment. Do you recommend 3PH for someone like me and if so, could you add a couple of reasons? My shop is my garage and single phase only residential service.

James

Hi James, for hobby use there's no way I'd go 3 phase, and I'm an Electrical Technologist.

If you're going to buy a used machine, there may be good deals on a 3 phase unit, however if you're going to buy new, buy a single phase machine.

Running a converter to run one single phase machine is a waste of money, unless you need variable speed, and then you need a VFD.

The 3 phase machines can be purchased with larger motors, the Hammer machines have a 4 HP motor. I have a power feeder on my saw/shaper and it can handle any task you'll need in a home shop.

Regards, Rod.

[Rick Fisher]

Rod has some great advice there, if you are buying new, go single phase every time when its available. The reason I set up a 3 phase system in my garage/ shop is that I like Euro Machinery and am cheap..

3 phase is a personal choice. If you are not sure you want it, you probably should wait. I enjoy getting used 3 phase machines at steep discounts, if I decide I don't want them anymore, I can sell them off and not take a huge loss.

Recently I picked up a very clean 2007 Felder Edge Sander with a 4 wheel Felder Feeder ..

http://i335.photobucket.com/albums/m455/jokerbird_photo/EdgeSanderFelder3.jpghttp://i335.photobucket.com/albums/m455/jokerbird_photo/EdgeSanderFelder.jpghttp://i335.photobucket.com/albums/m455/jokerbird_photo/EdgeSanderFelder2.jpg

Its 4 hp x 220V Ph3 with an additional 1hp x 220V Ph3 power feeder.. I got a great deal on it and have had a few cabinet makers offer to buy it from me as its a bit of a rare machine and a new one is the price of a low end car..

If your the kind of guy who is looking at the used stuff then a 3 phase set-up makes sense.. I would still not buy a new machine in 3 phase unless it was simply not available in single phase.. The reason is the same reason I have the 3 phase set-up.. The resale value is not nearly as good because its such a small market, and your relying on another device ( converter ) to keep it running..

I have never had any problems with my converter, but if it stopped working tomorrow, I would have 3 machines inoperable until it was fixed..

[Rick Fisher]

I should add.. That used Felder is replacing a Steel City Edge Sander I have had for a while.. It is not a disappointment .. :)

That sander only comes 3 phase, its made by ACM and sold through Griggio and Felder. It has a veneer sanding device on one side which removes material with cast iron fences.. Cabinet doors can be sanded with the power feeder and an exact amount is removed due to the fences.. ( really important in a hobby shop.. lol ) .. That side is pretty much doomed to face a wall..

Do some sanding on my Felder and then use the old Steel City.. you will become a believer.. Its like comparing a Cessna to an F-16. Both will get you to your destination, but the experience will not be the same.

On the Felder,

(1) The dust collection actually collects dust .. no idea how they did it .. Edge sanders are notorious for bad DC .. It has 2 x intake ports..
(2) It has the optional spindle sander attachment and 3 different spindles.. There are no sandpaper tubes, it uses drum sander paper.. Very fast to swap and cheap and simple.. Brilliant design..
(3) Its quieter.. The steel city edge sander is arguably the loudest machine in my shop.. That graphite platen rubbing against the belt creates a sound that is hard to explain..
(4) Its table has extended rollers that can be adjusted in and out .. Very handy for large panels.
(5) Angles are done with hand wheels rather than the abysmal system on the Steel city which slips and is never square..
(6) Its designed so you can sand a board of any length.. the end caps are inside the circle of the belt.. The steel city is much more limited..
(7) Both sides of the belt oscillate .. The steel city oscillates on one side, and must be adjusted when you change belts..

I am not slamming the Steel City.. its an inexpensive machine and you get what you pay for .. I could never buy the Felder new, but appreciate it when I use it .. so for me, having a 3 phase system makes sense..

[Mike Heidrick]

Cool sander Rick!!

I am in the mode of upgrading my existing residential service to 400 amp to support a 200amp sub panel in the shop and a RPC and 3 phase panel as well. While it is still a generated RPC and not a $5K phase perfect like Rick runs it is still a huge savings over buying some 1 phase equipment new. Not only that but if you size it correctly you can also run a wide belt sander that can be purchased cheaper in 3ph if you want.

3ph just gives you options. Having 3ph converted gives you the best of both worlds - ease of 1ph and flexability of 3 ph. Doing it yourself lets you step into it as well and digest the costs.

[Matt Mackinnon]

Rod is a tricky one, and did push me over to the dark side. I didn't end up getting the Hammer as the added cost was just too much for my bank account to handle. I ended up getting the Grizzly GO623X. I took the trip out of Felder and was impressed at the machines, but the Hammer line when you see the real Felder and how smooth the slider bed moves on them, it felt like I was being cheated.

I don't have a shaper and never found the use for one in my shop environment, so I looked at the K3 Winner that doesn't have the shaper. For me it was hard to justify double the price over the Grizzly. I've had my Grizzly now for almost a year and it works wonderfully. It took some time to get it adjusted just right but that was more my time to do it than the machines fault.

Another consideration for you to look into.

Matt

[Rick Fisher]

Mike .. you are exactly the kind of guy who should have 3 phase in your shop :)

The disease is well rooted in you, as it is with me .. lol

Getting 3 phase is like buying your first Festool ... its the beginning of a new obsession.

One of my issues with an RPC is the sheer mass of the beast. A 20hp RPC which will actually run a 20hp motor is probably 700 lbs. Having said that, I have a friend in town here who has a really high quality 10hp and its a really sweet set-up...

Having said that Mike.. Another member here found a 10hp Phase Perfect for $2000 used.. I think it would weigh 80 lbs and mount on the wall.. They can be daisy chained together down the road if you find the need for more power.

[Todd Brewer]

I would not buy a combo machine unless I didn't have the space for separates. I hate converting machines. I can imagine converting a combo for the next operation then realizing I needed to go back to the previous setup. My .02.

I say you have upgade-itis and need to close the browser and go make some saw dust. :)

[Will Blick]

OK, I gotta ask, what does a well equipped Hammer B3 Winner cost?
They sure have mastered the future of TS's...
I predict SS will go in this direction soon...these mini sliders have too much over conventional Cabinet Saws....
Nice Hammer Videos

[Todd Brewer]

Just watched a video of the Hammer B3 Winner. All I can say is WOW! And I'd love to have one! :D

[Mike Heidrick]

Right now I am running a 5hp rpc (dust collector), a 5hp VFD (sliding table shaper), two 3hp vfd (12" planer and a CNC with 3hp electrospindle), and a 1/2hp vfd (bandsaw feeder). Three phase is AWESOME.

I have the 20hp Temco RPC already ($350) and a 30hp baldor (new ideler if needed) and the caps to upgrade the RPC as well. I also have a 20hp baldor equipped roots blower vac pump for my cnc (vac clamping through MDF for parts hold down) as well. That is what is driving me.

I have been eyeing a 30X40 second shop - this one a detached pole barn.

I have the tractor with a loader and pallet forks so the RPC/motor weight is no issue. Also I am out in the coutry on 6 acres so no issues with space.

If all goes well I will have 20 or 30hp worth of 3 phase and 400amp service to the property and 200amp to the shop for less than two grand (doing the work myself). I am also doing the three phase lugged panel off my converter as well so adding 3 phase circuits will just be a matter of connecting them up. I am trying to pay cash for everything and work my way into this upgrade. Ebay is your friend as is making friends at an electrical supply house. Also many thanks to knowledgeable online friends!

[Mike Heidrick]

Also - any Hammer fans, go see a 700 series saw shaper. You will not want a Hammer after that :) It will be easy not to buy one then. Worse yet - 900 series - I dream in format blue!

[Van Huskey]

Also - any Hammer fans, go see a 700 series saw shaper. You will not want a Hammer after that :) It will be easy not to buy one then. Worse yet - 900 series - I dream in format blue!

Dream bigger Mike, I know YOU can! One word... ALTENDORF. F45 ELMO now thats what you need to be dreamin' about!

[Rod Sheridan]

Also - any Hammer fans, go see a 700 series saw shaper. You will not want a Hammer after that :) It will be easy not to buy one then. Worse yet - 900 series - I dream in format blue!


LOL.............Great point Mike, however it didn't work for me...........Really nice stuff the 900 series.........Power fence, how cool is it to just key in the finished size of the part and watch the saw adjust to cut that.............Rod.