How would you guys make this table top?

[keith micinski]

I have a woman that wants a table top made out of 2 inch thick Walnut wrapped in a band and the corners mitered. How can I do this with out the miter's splitting from the expansion of the field pieces. The top is 60 long and 36 wide. The band is probably going to be around 4 inches wide. I am not going to be using that many small boards it will probably be 4 boards depending on what my lumber guy can mill up. I want to use something with some figure on it so he is checking his logs to see what he has and will be milling it up next week.

[Jamie Buxton]

The short answer is that you can't make it the way she wants. If you must have the mitered border, the field cannot expand. You could use bandsawn veneer on a plywood substrate. Or if she really must have solid lumber in the field, you have to let it move. Put no border on the table, or just put breadboard ends on it.

[keith micinski]

Ya,those were the answers I already new. I was hoping for some magical answer that I wasn't smart enough to know. I am not equipped to do veneering that big and the mitered corners seem to be a really big deal to her because I originally designed it with a breadboard end and she chose this from a photo I had instead. I am thinking may be I can make a v notch in between each board joint and then when I get to the outside I could actually leave the sides floating and the v notch would sort of hide that. The only place the long band boards are actually attached is at the mitre. I would spline the mitre to reinforce it but I am not sure if this would be a strong enough joint. I would pin the breadboard end with over size holes to allow for that movement.

[Sam Murdoch]

I reiterate what you already know - THIS CAN'T BE DONE WITH SOLID WALNUT - unless your client doesn't mind the open miters. Jamie has said it all.

You can make it like a door panel but that would mean:

1) Leaving an 1/8" reveal around the entire perimeter of the center field.

2) The frame would be twice as thick as the center panel or more

3) The panel would be set to float within a mortise in the frame - using space balls as my first choice. It could be a solid wood glue up in this case.

4) The miters need to be reinforced joints - not just glued butts.

Don't let your client drive your design/woodworking car. There are laws of woodworking that can't be violated by money without much unhappiness later.

Good luck leading her through the process.

Sam

[Jim Matthews]

What if it were treated as frame and panel at the edges?

With a groove in the walnut all the way around, you could fit the ends of each, and the outermost sides with Space Balls (http://www.inthewoodshop.com/Furniture/Making%20a%20frame%20and%20panel%20door.html).
This implies that there will be a seasonal gap, each Winter. Could your client tolerate that?

[keith micinski]

This is what I was thinking of doing, I guess I didn't describe it very well. I am going to try and talk her into just a breadboard end but if I can't I guess frame and panel is probably the way I'll have to do it.

[Will Blick]

forget the middle of the table, at 4" outer frame ONLY, the miter joint will open in time from expansion / contraction with solid lumber.

I like the idea of buying veneered ply with solid wood banding to disguise the ply edges. Maybe an accent color so it becomes a design feature. To prevent the Walnut center from pushing / pulling the frame apart, join center boards at end grain to the short sides of the frame, with loose tenon joinery, tight, but not glued, as wood moves on its width. This will allow movement. The bottom of the frame can act as a housing as well to support the center boards... a lot of design work to accomplish this task....and you will still have slight gaps between the long grain side Walnut and the frame during dry periods / contraction. Lots of math to determine potential wood movement, so you allow min. gap, which might not be acceptable to client. Clearly a high risk project... but interesting

[ian maybury]

+1 on the problems inherent in a mitre - it'll risk the joints opening and closing as wood changes in width. That said there's apparently ways and means, because I know of one commercially produced coffee table with a roughly 4in x 1in mitred perimeter frame done that way in what might be cherry (or something tropical) that has lasted for many years indoors without problems.

ian

[Paul Incognito]

I'd use 3/4 plywood for the field and apply a solid wood frame. If you get some A-1 plywood that isn't bookmatched or slip matched it'll be hard to tell that it isn't solid wood once the edges are applied.
My 2cents.
Paul

[Prashun Patel]

Veneer over MDF for the core. Mitered half lap hard wood for the edge band.

[Ruhi Arslan]

.... depending on what my lumber guy can mill up. I want to use something with some figure on it so he is checking his logs to see what he has and will be milling it up next week.
If the lumber to be milled from the log, how long would you need to wait for the lumber to be ready for use?

[Jeff Heath]

During my career as a professional cabinetmaker and furniture maker, I would occasionally come across this exact scenario with a customer who wanted to dictate how a certain project was to be built or constructed. It's always a delicate task managing the difference between massaging customers into understanding what can and cannot be done on a certain project, and just doing it there way. Doing it their way can often lead to an unhappy customer base if it continues. 80% of my work comes from referrals, and they all seem to know each other.

If I were you, I would sit down with her and explain exactly what's going to happen to her table if you build it the way she wants it. The miters are definitely going to come apart. If you build this table with a frame and panel construction method, you will also have to explain to her about the gap inside the perimeter of the frame that is going to be the favorite hiding place for food crumbs, and possibly even nastier living creatures down the road.

There's a reason why she's hiring you. She has confidence in your capabilities to deliver a handsome looking piece of furniture that she will cherish a very long time after the check she writes you clears. Explain to her that you want her to still respect your professionalism 5 to 10 years down the road when the table, as originally desired, would have otherwise exploded on her.

I'm guessing that any sane individual will listen to reason, respect you very much for offering viable alternatives, and remember clearly why she hired you in the first place to avoid such a potential disaster.

Jeff

[Peter Quinn]

Veneer over MDF for the core. Mitered half lap hard wood for the edge band.


This is your best idea. You could buy 1 1/2" MDF or MD ultralite (they make lots of thickness), slice it up just like your stock into 6-8" wide strips, add a shop sawn veneer, you could press this mechanically with basic clamps, spline these blanks for alignment, glue them back together into a top like a solid glue up, edge band with solid stock. All possible IMO with a basic TS and a decent 14" or better BS.

I suppose you could use a gapped ship lap or T&G set up, treat it like a door panel, use space balls, let it all float. But then you have something between a picnic table and a raised panel door for a top, and that certainly has its drawbacks aesthetically. So my thinking is make it a veneered unit, set up for that, or sell the top you can make.

[keith micinski]

I guess I didn't think about ripping the MDF and veneering each piece individually. I might lean this way. As far as the 4 inch banding opening up I have had pretty good success with a splined miter this big not opening up so I am not to worried about that. I am going to try and talk her out of the Mitre and barring that I am going to try veneering the individual pieces. I can only make my veneer about 3/16 to a 1/4 though because my bandsaw sucks so I try to stay away from veneering right now until I get a better bandsaw. Thanks for all of the help so far.

[Rick Fisher]

Part of the job of a professional is saying no and explaining why ..

[michael case]

Everything Jeff said. As a rule give the customers the choices and the guidance. Your reasonable and most likely so are your customers. They will listen. I wouldn't recommend trying the reasonable approach with an architect though, since they know nothing and there's' nothing they don't know.

[Kenneth Speed]

Unsurprisingly, I'm with the other guys on this one. The miter edged table is a disaster waiting to happen. We're all in agreement on that.

You didn't tell us the style of the table but there might be "wiggle room" to make something close to this work if the table is a non-traditional style. You might want to consider making the table with a gap in the center of the table and then put it in a mitered frame allowing the center gap to handle the wood movement. I think I saw someone doing something like this with live edge pieces in a woodworking magazine recently.

I'd still avoid the mitered frame and advocate breadboard ends.

[Jim Matthews]

Part of the job of a professional is saying no and explaining why ..

Part of the job of a professional is explaining that for slight additional charge, anything is possible.

[George Gyulatyan]

I reiterate what you already know - THIS CAN'T BE DONE WITH SOLID WALNUT - unless your client doesn't mind the open miters. Jamie has said it all.
Mark Singer's Zebra coffee table might be a good source. I believe his miters are designed to open up with seasonal changes as you mention:
http://www.sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?55767-Zebra-coffee-table&highlight=coffee+table

[Sean Hughto]

Ask her if she has ever seen a table top like that made out of solid wood. Then explain how wood moves - you can tell her that even breadboard ends will show the movement, but that it is built to allow it. If she wants solid wood, this plan will not work. You could then offer to build it for her, but ask that she sign an acknowledgment that you predict/assure her that the miters will crack open in less than a year.

[keith micinski]

Well I looked at Mark's table and I don't like the floating mitre design. I think if I was going to employ the miters I would want to allow for the movement by making the center section like a panel and leaving that gap all the way around the outside edge between the band and using space balls. This woman doesn't have children and isn't going to use this table as an every day piece. I am less concerned of the gap attracting dirt and debris because of the way she is going to use it. I am going to make a small mock up to show her how wood moves and explain her options. I am starting to want to try to the mitre edge for the challenge of making it work. My current plan is to make the top by glueing the boards together and making a small 1/8th inch deep by 1/8th inch wide gap where every joint between boards are. I think this will make the gap on the outside of the table between the band not noticeable at all. I am going to spline the mitre joint like Mark did and also use screws with elongated holes on the ends. One upside to this project is that the aprons and legs are going to be fine so if this top design doesn't end up working I can always remake the top and use the wood from the failed mitre top design for other projects.

[Chris Padilla]

http://www.sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?5510-Peruvian-walnut-table-designed-for-wood-movement&highlight=peruvian%20walnut

This was a link within Mark's zebrawood post...not sure you saw it. I like the bridle joints there.

[Rick Thom]

I guess I didn't think about ripping the MDF and veneering each piece individually. I might lean this way. As far as the 4 inch banding opening up I have had pretty good success with a splined miter this big not opening up so I am not to worried about that. I am going to try and talk her out of the Mitre and barring that I am going to try veneering the individual pieces. I can only make my veneer about 3/16 to a 1/4 though because my bandsaw sucks so I try to stay away from veneering right now until I get a better bandsaw. Thanks for all of the help so far.
When finished, stay well below the 1/4" so the veneer doesn't act like solid wood (movement).
Are you going to veneer both top and bottom equally?

[Brian Penning]

Here's an example of using a veneered ply top with the solid maple border. The pics are with the extensions in and then pulled out.

231675231676

[Will Blick]

Nice table Brian..... I have a similar project on my list....

>When finished, stay well below the 1/4" so the veneer doesn't act like solid wood (movement).

I think the right thickness of the veneer to assure the glue over powers its desire to move waaay under 1/4".... IIRC, closer to 1/100th. I made this mistake once, and learned the hard way, that what appears thin, is not thin enough to prevent movement. Many good references on this, working from memory, maybe someone else can ring in.

IMO, the ww community makes changes quite slow...the concept of thin veneers for something like this top should be more commonplace, but it's not.... prob. in 50 years it will be :-)

[Chris Padilla]

I veneered some shop-cut walnut veneer (1/16" thick) onto to two pieces of 5/8" MDF (that were glued/sandwiched together so 1 1/4" total thickness) and I only did it to one side. The walnut promptly pulled the flat MDF out of flat along the long length. These were about 12" x 42" pieces, too. I was pretty amazed.

I think 1/16" or less could be considered a veneer (i.e. something that doesn't move) but it depends on the wood species, the substrate it is glued to and the glue used. In my experience, one wants a glue that dries very hard like plastic resin, for example. PVAs (white/yellow) don't dry hard and I believe are unsuitable for veneering although I hear plenty of folks doing it with no issues so YMMV.

[keith micinski]

I agree the best way to go would be to veneer a top. unfortunately I just don't have the right tolls to do that job right now and don't have enough veneering work to justify getting them or trying to make "something work." here is what I have come up with. I made a sample so I can show her what is going on and why we need to account for wood movement. This will actually work and I sort of like the look but I don't see any way to not get food particles and other debris from getting into the gap. I made one side flat and I made a groove in the other side because I think if the grooves ran the length of the field boards it would tie in the expansion gap better.I have set the gap at a 16/th all the ay around and have reinforced the mitre with a 1/2 inch by 1/2 inch piece. I made this sample out of 1 1/2 stock but am considering making the field boards out of 3/4 and making the band out of 1 1/2 or 2 so that appears to be thick with out actually being thick.

[Will Blick]

nice samples Kieth, sure hope your customer appreciates the time n effort you put into her wishes....

just wingin everything in my arsenal at ya.... hoping you can find a solution here...as they say, when there is a will, there is a way!

You ca use picture frame boards as the outside edge, they come in sizes up to 4-5" width, and are often MDF core with a very nice vinyl veneer.... Google Framerica for some examples. That solves the frame issue and provides a nice edge also with no veneering work.... this stuff is very durable, I use it a lot.

So then, the only problem which remains is the gap issue. To solve that, why not go with pre finished veneered ply, cut down to planks, similar to what you have shown above in the pix, except, use hard wood strips at the ends of the ply, and tongue and groove them together as you have in pix, this will give the "plank" look you are pursuing, and now wood movement is reduced to the small 3/4" edging joining the veneered edging. You can even use hardwood of a different type, possibly for an accent, or decorative look. Or, maybe try to match it, that is artistic call... My thought is, wood movement is proportional to its width, and with this approach, you just eliminated 90% of the planks width, now the gap can be 90% less which is prob. very acceptable. With this approach, you don't need any veneering skills or tools.... I have bought pre finished veneered MDF and ply that is truly stunning how beutiful it is, not cheap though, $130 a sheet based on grade and type of veneer, and thickness.... 3/4" would be ideal IMO.

btw, did you get the proper calcs on wood movement for the right size gap? If so, what did you use?

[Sam Murdoch]

This will actually work and I sort of like the look but I don't see any way to not get food particles and other debris from getting into the gap.

If she musty have tight mitered corners - consider a glass top? OR as a just as radical solution - cross cut through the stiles (stiles on the sides and rails on the ends for purpose of this discussion) leaving the miter of the rails/stiles intact. Use those "mitered" ends/rails as breadboard ends. The only thing different - but understandable to everyone who understands wood movement - will be the extra cut line near the ends of the stiles. This would allow you to eliminate all the gaps around the perimeter.

[keith micinski]

I winged the gap because any more then that and it becomes ugly and way to big. A heavy 16th on each side seems like enough of a gap with the reenforced mitre joint but I have no scientific evidence of that other then personal experience. I would like to use a refinished ply except for two things. One is I want to use a very unique highly figured Walnut crotch log for this project. The other is the customer doesn't want a glossy built up finish and I don't like that finish either. I have had good luck using General finishes outdoor oil on my table tops recently. I like it because it gives you a nice matte finish and is easy to maintain in the future with out needing to sand.

[keith micinski]

If she musty have tight mitered corners - consider a glass top? OR as a just as radical solution - cross cut through the stiles (stiles on the sides and rails on the ends for purpose of this discussion) leaving the miter of the rails/stiles intact. Use those "mitered" ends/rails as breadboard ends. The only thing different - but understandable to everyone who understands wood movement - will be the extra cut line near the ends of the stiles. This would allow you to eliminate all the gaps around the perimeter.

I think this cut line would really draw the eye and take away from the mitered corner look. If I were going to do that I would make the joint of the mitre the expansion point like the zebra wood table previously mentioned but I don't like that either. The funny thing is she might say oh well the mitre joint isn't that big of a deal but I know when I showed here a bunch of designs that was one of the few things she was really sure about from the beginning so really want to try and accommodate it.

[Chris Tsutsui]

I found that if you veneer just one side of a flat stable panel then that can cause warping.

Veneer both sides then your result is a lot more stable. This is why I will ALWAYS try to coat/ paint or veneer both sides of a sheet good product. I prefer to buy factory veneered sheet goods because if one side is the good side, then they often use a lesser grade on the other side.

Glue by itself with the water content can cause warping issues.

[keith micinski]

I am going to call my local wood place and see if I can get a figured piece of walnut ply but I am not holding out hope for it.

[Sam Murdoch]

I think this cut line would really draw the eye and take away from the mitered corner look. If I were going to do that I would make the joint of the mitre the expansion point like the zebra wood table previously mentioned but I don't like that either. The funny thing is she might say oh well the mitre joint isn't that big of a deal but I know when I showed here a bunch of designs that was one of the few things she was really sure about from the beginning so really want to try and accommodate it.

I did say that it was a radical solution. :rolleyes: Just an idea - didn't say it was a good one.

[keith micinski]

No problems I definitely wanted to get everyones input and am open to anything that might make the project the best it can be.

[keith micinski]

Well I showed the customer the model piece and explained to her why it needed to be built that way and I guess its good news that she decided to go with just a regular bread board end. I had kind of set my mind to making the miters and challenging myself to see how it would work and hold up over time so now I am actually a little disappointed but I understand why she chose to get rid of the miters. The gap was just going to draw to much garbage into it and I don't have the stuff to veneer a top up nor could I get a piece of figured plywood that I could make work.