Sharpening Japanese Chisels

[Rich Riddle]

I read that one should use a Japanese whetsone system to sharpen Japanese chisels. I have a set of Japanese chisels and am wondering what type of stones you folks use. The information on the web can prove overwhelming at times. Some suggest a Naniwa Chosera are the minimal tools needed. Any ideas?

[Howard Pollack]

There are a million choices, I've used about a half million. Personally, I'd start with whatever sharpening method you usually use, as long as you're satisfied by it. If that doesn't work well, tell us what you're using and I'm sure precise recommendations will proliferate. -Howard

[Sam Murdoch]

Yeah, your chisel won't know if your stone or other system speaks Japanese - just sharp :)

[Jim Matthews]

Yeah, your chisel won't know if your stone or other system speaks Japanese - just sharp :)

Succinct as always, Reverend.

[Stuart Tierney]

Try what you've already got, so long as it doesn't involve a sparky, high speed grinder.

Chances are that what to you've got will work well enough.


I'd like to tell you that you don't 'need' waterstone like sharpening gear for Japanese tools, but do consider that they're designed for waterstones and how waterstones work. Oilstones will/might work, scary sharp will work. However, using anything but proper waterstones (Norton included) forces you to miss out on most of the reason why the chisels are made the way they are and you might as well of bought something else.

But no, Chosera are not essential for sharpening Japanese tools. Anyone who suggests that they are specifically required should be looked with extreme skepticism.

Stu.

[David Weaver]

I read that one should use a Japanese whetsone system to sharpen Japanese chisels. I have a set of Japanese chisels and am wondering what type of stones you folks use. The information on the web can prove overwhelming at times. Some suggest a Naniwa Chosera are the minimal tools needed. Any ideas?

Almost sounds like trolling of the first order with the chosera bit throw in at the end, there.

Use stones. If the chisels don't get sharp because of the user, fix the user. If the chisels don't get sharp because of the stones, fix the stones.

[Jeff Heath]

As stated, whatever gets you there, gets you there. A sharp edge, in woodworking terms, is the intersection of two highly polished surfaces. Whatever you use to get there is your choice.

On a lighter note of similar origin, I was once gifted an extremely fine set of Japanese dovetail chisels (Nishiki) folded a billion times, etched, and made from 16th century high sulfur boat anchors, blah, blah, blah.....(No disrespect intended towards the japanese tool lovers here.) The set came with instructions on how to "properly" sharpen them using "ONLY" the most expensive water stones ever mined from the mountains of Japan. It was good for a great laugh from me. I sold those very quickly and used the money to buy several Lie Nielsen planes. My $8 apiece Greenlee chisels from the 30's sharpen just as sharp, chop just as well to a line, and they speak english quite well, too!

Enjoy your new tools, and sharpen them on concrete if you like.....just as long as they are sharp.

Jeff

[Jack Curtis]

... an extremely fine set of Japanese dovetail chisels (Nishiki)...

Nothing about my experience with Nishiki chisels said "extremely fine." For example, some of them didn't even have straight shanks. I returned them.

[David Weaver]

Someone on wood central mentioned once that he had worked alongside a couple of shokunin in japan who told him that they only use natural stones because synthetic stones would ruin their chisels. I thought that was an interesting comment. I've got no qualms about anything on any tool, but the bright polish on a japanese chisel is kind of ugly. It just is, but it's still sharp and it's probably more practical than natural stones because it'll take less time to get a very fine edge, and in reality, (from what I can tell sharpening razors) few natural stones are as fine as people think they are. Those that are cut slowly or are hard enough to settle into a slower cutting flatter groove - but the particles are not so small, and it only takes generating a slurry to prove that quickly.

Last year, I ordered a 1 inch temple builders chisel from imai (via hida tools), thinking it'd be just the thing for wooden plane making. What I found out in reality is that it lasts no longer, and probably less long, than an old PS&W framer that I got on ebay for $18. Physically they are similar in size and weight, both are laminated construction. The imai is a bit harder, but you can't grind it, and it doesn't tolerate hard striking (like with a 2 pound hammer) in woods that are good for planemaking.

The fact that you can't grind it makes it take about 3 times as long to get back into shape vs. the western chisel. Waste of a hundred bucks!

I do like japanese chisels as bench chisels, but there have only been a few chisels of any type that I didn't like as bench chisels, and that's because they were defective. Nobody would ever hit a bench chisel as hard as I strike a chisel mortising a plane. I would never buy a set of chisels that costs $2000 or $1500 and had a bunch of hand work in it that was intended to be artistic. There are plenty of functional things in japanese chisels that are better for the user.

But at the same time, I don't really enjoy woodworking any more with them or with a set of chisels that cost me $7 each and that have been set up properly (though I do enjoy them more as tools, they are a fine display of craftsmanship).

[Jack Curtis]

Although I haven't made a plane of hon red oak or desert ironwood, I've made several of kashi (Japanese white oak) using Japanese chisels....

You know, David, I find making far reaching assertions based on the use of one chisel peculiar. I had planned to refute in detail, but I'm more or less bored with repeating myself. There's some sort of reverse snobbery happening here that seems pretty useless.

[David Weaver]

I have a lot of chisels I didn't mention, including white steel/mokume.

If I had tapped my way through the plane bodies with lighter strikes, the imai temple builder's chisel may have fared better.

I don't plan to tap my way through any of the large mortises on a coffin smoother or any other type of western plane, the mortise is too large to dawdle through it. I had no issues cutting a mortise in hard maple with any chisels in a dai, it's short and there's a lot of room for chips to escape.

But I was pretty disappointed that some of the hardness in the imai wasn't sacrificed for toughness for a chisel that you'd presume was expected to be struck by something bigger than a 450 gram hammer. The backing metal on it feels like plain iron, it doesn't yield to stones that well, compounding the problem by making a chisel that chips take longer to sharpen.

Like I said, it was a waste of money. I'd love to sell it to someone else, but due to my honesty on here, I guess I won't be doing that!

Summarize in detail whatever you'd like to summarize, I can't see how I painted anything with a broad brush at all. Notice my comment about the bench chisels. In light work (which is all a cabinetmaker does with anything but mortise chisels), they do hold an edge longer than some of my western chisels, but the difference in edge holding is more than lost in sharpening time and there is no argument that they are necessary for fine craftsmanship. In most cases, fine craftsmen probably don't see that level of expense as necessary. I am a gentleman woodworker, so I don't mind spending the money on something that I couldn't justify as a woodworking tool.

I don't see this as an issue of reverse snobbery, I see it as a matter of practicality for anyone who is searching for the stars via $150 per piece chisels. There are no stars in them, they are instead displays of craftsmanship, and the qualities that they have used to be available in ouchis relatively cheaply (perhaps ouchis are actually better in use) and still are in some other plain brands.

[Tony Shea]

I can't really see where David made any far reaching assertions. I am a huge fan of Japanese chisels and tools in general. I really love all my Japanese chisels and wouldn't trade any of them. But I also have a set western chisels, LN's to be exact, that get used a bit more for general work. And this is due to the exact reason David mentioned, SHARPENING. It is so much easier for me sharpen up a hollow ground chisel than to always hone the entire bevel of a japanese chisel. I really have to watch my technique with Japanese chisels as it is so easy to not hone right up to the bevel. But I am also a hobbiest woodworker and don't get as much time in sharpening them as a professional would.

Having said all this, I still love my japanese chisels. The balance is perfect and I do believe that they can have much better edge retention. I also really like the handmade side of them. They certainly aren't for everyone though.

[David Weaver]

I can see where it would've been taken that way, and like I usually do, I overrode the response with volume. My distaste for the one chisel doesn't extend to all chisels, just like my distaste for some of the more expensive anodized aluminum western "precision" tools doesn't necessarily extend to all things anodized aluminum or all measuring tools.

In light work, my koyama-ichi chisels are fantastic (the dovetail ones), though a bit hard on the fingers after a while and can draw blood from the *sides* of the chisels. They are so wonderful to use that I'll just put tape where they usually cut me rather than compromising their fabulously crisp edges.

My mokume chisels were bargain basement white #2 iyoroi mokume, which means they are not the same class as tasai chisels, but looking up from the bottom, they are no close to being the same as the iyoroi chisels that are blocky and ugly. They are nicely made, plenty hard enough, but they sharpen on stones like no chisel that holds an edge as well as they do ever has the business of sharpening. At the price they generally are ($1400) - I would never buy them. Never. But they were less than half that amount, maybe they were seconds, I don't know, but they are chisels I don't need at all, and chisels I don't use that much, but at the same time I will probably not ever sell them because their balance of sharpening and use is so great. They make me have a distaste for any chisel that doesn't sharpen like they do.

I just got a set of english marples in the mail, too. Older ones that have a really nice grind, blue plastic and all. They hold an edge just fine and (this is not an endorsement of them because I know they are not consistent) every single one of them is hollow in the back making them a fast trick to prepare. They were $38.

When we talk about working wood, the bevels on those marples chisels are more delicate than the japanese bench chisels and almost as delicate as the fabulous koyamaichi dovetail chisels. I could work everything I have with them just fine, they are probably high 50s hardness, and they aren't the lovely plain carbon steel, but if you don't fill your head with preconditions, they really don't have any shortcomings that would keep someone from doing everything you need to do in cabinetmaking.

One mistake we make when we talk all about stuff is that people will read it, and then run with it and spend their money. If I talk only about the mokume iyorois without respect to price, it could be inferred that's necessary to go that route, and with the beating iyoroi takes as a name, it will instantly be spiraled up to needing mokume from a more reputable blacksmith. If I talked about the virtues of natural japanese stones for razors and tools, it could be inferred that one is really missing out by not using them. But, in reality, the value for a woodworker exists in a much lower range on both items, and burning those brain cells on figuring out what you want to build or what tools you'd like to make for yourself. The rest of the stuff is for enthusiasts. I'll bet there are more DMTs, Kings, Nortons, Oilstones and Marples tools in professional shops in the US than there are LNs, blue spruce, tasais, okudo suitas ... all combined. And the work suffers not a bit for it, and neither would any of ours if we are honest about it. That doesn't mean we shouldn't buy enthusaist tools, but knowing that I can do everything with a $38 set of chisels (that perhaps need to be sharpened twice as much), a $40 grinder with a gray wheel from home depot and a couple of flea market stones and a strop would suggest just why I'm not happy with a very large $100 chisel that doesn't offer gleaming advantages over an $18 chisel. Perhaps it would if I babied it, but I'd just be done far after I would've finished the job with the $18 chisel.

A lot of us, with our expensive tools, will baby them just to learn to get the most out of them in every aspect...to protect the edge from heavy work and abuse, to find out where they perform optimally in terms of setup, to keep them rust free, ... and then we hear trash talk about otherwise competent tools that have been abused, 99% of the reason being they just weren't given the care that the coddled tools were.

There's a saying that the grass is greener on the other side of the fence, but if you water the grass on your side, you might find that it's just as green. I have a feeling, aside from chisels, that a lot of us are going to soon be "watering" our bench planes as we learn that they will run with any premium high angle plane in figured woods. That's what I've been finding out so far.

[Jeff Heath]

Nothing about my experience with Nishiki chisels said "extremely fine." For example, some of them didn't even have straight shanks. I returned them.

As I stated earlier, I didn't own them or use them long enough to give a competent review. They were very pretty, and very, very expensive, at least to me. At the time, I was a professional furniture and cabinetmaker, and was delighted that they sold two days after I posted them on a woodworking forum for sale. I had, and still do have, plenty of chisels that work well for me, and was delighted to be able to add 3 LN planes to my stable that were, at the time, missing from my arsenal.

No reverse snobbery here from me all. It's just that the dovetails I cut with a sharp, $8 Greenlee, Swan, Stanley or Witherby (those last two probably are more like $15 to $20 apiece now) fit just as well as they would have from the $100plus, albeit much prettier, Japanese chisel.

Jeff

[Jack Curtis]

Hey, I'm all for pointing out potential economies; and I've got piles of western chisels, some were very cheap (say, $3 per on ebay 10 years ago) and some pretty expensive (Addis), some new, some old. They all work and work well; but so do my Japanese edges. I go to them first, they're easy to sharpen, easy to use.

[Chris Friesen]

Something I've wondered...why can't you take a japanese chisel and hollow-grind it almost to the edge, then use waterstones to put the final edge on it?

[David Weaver]

You can. There are two reasons for the advice to avoid a hollow ground, but if you have a reasonable radius of wheel (6"+ would be my wild guess), then there's only one reason to avoid it, and that's heat.

The temperature that you draw the temper on a japanese chisels is lower than it is for western tool steel, mostly because of the higher carbon content of the plain japanese steels (blue and white 1 and 2). You have a greater chance of ruining the temper without ever seeing a change in the tempering color. Older western tools were often tempered to a straw color, but japanese tools lose their temper long long before that.

The other reason, I guess, especially if you have a nice backing metal, is that the chisel looks much much more attractive when it's traditionally honed, and if it's taken care of, because the backing metal is soft, it shouldn't be difficult to keep plain japanese steel chisels in good shape without going lower than a medium grit stone.

[Derek Cohen]

I know of one respected woodworker who hollow grinds his Japanese chisels, and that is David Charlesworth. As a non-respected woodworker, I have not hesitated to do so as well with some of my Iyoroi bench chisels, especially the large ones. The only reason I do not do so with my Koyamaichi and Kiyohesi chisels is to offer respect to tradtion. I doubt very much it would harm them if I did do so.

The important qualification here is that dry grinding is out. Definitely out. It creates too much heat for the thin hard steel layer. However all will be well with a wet grinder, such as a Tormek. I also recommend limiting grinding to the 10" wheel version of the Tormek. This creates a shallow hollow, unlike a 6" or 8" wheel, and does not remove much of the iron backing. I have never experienced an edge chip as a result of reduced support from the iron.

It should not be necessary to hollow a Japanese blade since the iron backing is soft and abrades quickly, offering support as one freehands the bevel over a stone. I do recall that JIm Krenov would add a secondary bevel, which is also non-traditional. The advantage of a hollow is that one may support the bevel over the stone when sharpening, and a hollow does speed up sharpening.

One reason not to hollow - and also why I only use this method on a few of the bench chisels - is that it removes that wonderful look you get of the laminations when they are honed together in the same plane.

Regards from Perth

Derek

[Jeff Bartley]

I saw a great tutorial recently on sharpening japanese chisels.....Chris Halls blog 'thecarpentryway dot blogspot dot com'. He goes into great detail the initial preparation of the chisel (setting the hoop) through sharpening. And aside from this particular series on japanese chisels his work in general is incredible; some of the joinery takes a few minutes of study to figure out how all the components come together.
Hope this will help!