Squaring large panels

[Christian Thompson]

Guys,

I'm working on a tool chest and have a question about squaring the panels. I've got them glued up and flattened. The next step is to square them up and dovetail them together. Everything I have done up to this point has been much smaller and I've used a shooting board to square the end grain. I'm building the tool chest to the dimensions specified in Chris Schwarz's book - 24" x 38" for the long sides. That's too big to fit my shooting board. So my question is how you guys would approach something that size - build a big shooting board or try to do it freehand (I'd probably at least use a fence)?

Thanks,
Christian

[David Weaver]

Mark it square and cut it to the mark (if it's not showing) or cut it just short of the mark and plane to the mark like you would with a long grain edge. If you're not confident about your abilities to keep the cut square, then mark it all the way around and plane it until your mark is gone.

Support the end grain at the back of the cut with something clamped against it if you are worried about blowout (if you're not worried about it and you take a heavy shaving, you'll be doing some gluing).

[Christian Thompson]

OK. Makes sense. Thanks.

[Prashun Patel]

Further, I don't know that it's super critical. *If you are dovetailing, then the critical square lines will be at the base of your pins and tails. *Any inconsistency in the end of your panel will be planed flush after. *If however, yr ends are not perfectly square, then you'll need to use a method other than a marking gauge to scribe yr base lines.

[Jessica Pierce-LaRose]

Prashun's method is how I've gone about it in the past, partcularly if the ends are square the sides, but the edges of the ends aren't perfectly square like they would be off a shooting board.

If your bench is flat enough, you can elevate the piece just a hair with some shims and use the plane on it's side on the bench, like one big shooting board. If what you elevate the piece with has a long enough true edge, by clamping the assembly in place, you final cuts the plane could run against that like the edge of a shooting board.

But I'd probably just mark the lines and plane to it, like David says. If your sawing was accurate, there shouldn't be too much to remove.

[Charlie Stanford]

Guys,

I'm working on a tool chest and have a question about squaring the panels. I've got them glued up and flattened. The next step is to square them up and dovetail them together. Everything I have done up to this point has been much smaller and I've used a shooting board to square the end grain. I'm building the tool chest to the dimensions specified in Chris Schwarz's book - 24" x 38" for the long sides. That's too big to fit my shooting board. So my question is how you guys would approach something that size - build a big shooting board or try to do it freehand (I'd probably at least use a fence)?

Thanks,
Christian

Get accurate marks on the wood and cut just shy of them with a handsaw and finish to the line with an edge-tool, usually in this instance a hand plane. If you can get a good mark on the wood you're 95% of the way there. An eleven year old can be taught how to saw shy of a line and square enough to the face so as not to affect cleanup to the line.

Hand tool woodworking relies on knowing how to mark individual cuts and laying out joints. Layout is EVERYTHING. Frankly, I'd use your shooting board as kindling the next time it gets chilly. I can't stand the bloody things.

A better question is how to get square layout lines on a big panel if you don't have a large square that's accurate. You didn't ask that question.

[Christian Thompson]

Further, I don't know that it's super critical. *If you are dovetailing, then the critical square lines will be at the base of your pins and tails. *Any inconsistency in the end of your panel will be planed flush after. *If however, yr ends are not perfectly square, then you'll need to use a method other than a marking gauge to scribe yr base lines.

Interesting thought. I hadn't thought of doing that. My plan was to use a marking gauge to layout the base line so I think I'll try to get it square. It's an idea to file away for future projects, though.


Prashun's method is how I've gone about it in the past, partcularly if the ends are square the sides, but the edges of the ends aren't perfectly square like they would be off a shooting board.

If your bench is flat enough, you can elevate the piece just a hair with some shims and use the plane on it's side on the bench, like one big shooting board. If what you elevate the piece with has a long enough true edge, by clamping the assembly in place, you final cuts the plane could run against that like the edge of a shooting board.

But I'd probably just mark the lines and plane to it, like David says. If your sawing was accurate, there shouldn't be too much to remove.

Heh. Definitely not a given :). I think I can get it close enough so I don't have to spend too much time on it, though.


Get accurate marks on the wood and cut just shy of them with a handsaw and finish to the line with an edge-tool, usually in this instance a hand plane. If you can get a good mark on the wood you're 95% of the way there. An eleven year old can be taught how to saw shy of a line and square enough to the face so as not to affect cleanup to the line.

Hand tool woodworking relies on knowing how to mark individual cuts and laying out joints. Layout is EVERYTHING. Frankly, I'd use your shooting board as kindling the next time it gets chilly. I can't stand the bloody things.

A better question is how to get square layout lines on a big panel if you don't have a large square that's accurate. You didn't ask that question.

My plan was to use my framing square. It's probably not super accurate, though. Other suggestions?

Thanks for the replies guys.
Christian

[Jack Curtis]

...If your bench is flat enough, you can elevate the piece just a hair with some shims and use the plane on it's side on the bench, like one big shooting board. If what you elevate the piece with has a long enough true edge, by clamping the assembly in place, you final cuts the plane could run against that like the edge of a shooting board....

That's what I do, use the back of the bench as one long sticking board. Works great.

[Derek Cohen]

Just one point (which may be obvious but has not been mentioned): mark your lines with a knife, not a pencil. Plane to these lines. A pencil line may not be accurate enough as it is difficult to keep it thin.


Regards from Perth

Derek

[David Weaver]

Interesting thought. I hadn't thought of doing that. My plan was to use a marking gauge to layout the base line so I think I'll try to get it square. It's an idea to file away for future projects, though.



Heh. Definitely not a given :). I think I can get it close enough so I don't have to spend too much time on it, though.



My plan was to use my framing square. It's probably not super accurate, though. Other suggestions?

Thanks for the replies guys.
Christian

If it's something very large, I'd make a wooden square to do the job and just test it by marking the same line a mm or two apart with the square laying one direction for the first line and the other direction for the second. If they stay parallel and the reference edge is straight, you're in good shape.

[Evan Ryan]

A better question is how to get square layout lines on a big panel if you don't have a large square that's accurate. You didn't ask that question.

that is a good question. Does anyone know how to square a big panel without a large accurate square?

[Marc Seguin]

If you have a straightedge and a compass you can use them to layout a line at 90* from any point from your reference edge. Here's how (http://www.mathopenref.com/constperplinepoint.html).

[Evan Ryan]

Thank you mark.
How effective is measuring corner to corner to check square?

[Mike Henderson]

Thank you mark.
How effective is measuring corner to corner to check square?
If your two sides are parallel, measuring corner to corner is pretty accurate.

Mike

[Jim Matthews]

If this is a large panel (bigger than 20" or so) the baseline where
the dovetails interlock is a PITA to get right.

No matter how sharp I get my chisels, or how carefully I approach
the baseline - I inevitably have blow out, fracturing or undercutting.

I now cut everything except this step by hand.

Once I get close with a coping saw, I use
Glen Huey's method to square up the 'bottom'
of the joint where the boards meet.

I don't use the bit to hog out waste - only to defined the bottom plane.

I've just completed a glue up using this method
and it is a MUCH cleaner fit than I've achieved before.

For me, the challenge is in maintaining that base line
along the entire length. The trim router has a fixed
depth, and follows the 'perch' that each board
is clamped to, securely.

The trick is to have a stable perch that's wide enough
and verified to square along it's length.


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[Curt Putnam]

You should be able to get a drafting T square or very large plastic triangle for very nominal cost.

[Daniel Rode]

A TS is perhaps not the ideal solution for hand tool enthusiasts.

Mark a line on both sides and then saw as close as you dare. Then use a long plane to get the edge completely flat and square by planing down to the line. A pencil line will work but a knife line is better. It's easier to read as it can be seen from the side or edge as you get near.

[Pat Barry]

that is a good question. Does anyone know how to square a big panel without a large accurate square?
Use the 3-4-5 right triangle method (assuming you can make an accurate 90 degree angle you should get very close on your first atempt).

[Daniel Rode]

+1 - this is the ideal way to measure 90 degrees.

Use the 3-4-5 right triangle method

[Brian Holcombe]

If this is a large panel (bigger than 20" or so) the baseline where
the dovetails interlock is a PITA to get right.

No matter how sharp I get my chisels, or how carefully I approach
the baseline - I inevitably have blow out, fracturing or undercutting.

I now cut everything except this step by hand.

Once I get close with a coping saw, I use
Glen Huey's method to square up the 'bottom'
of the joint where the boards meet.

I don't use the bit to hog out waste - only to defined the bottom plane.

I've just completed a glue up using this method
and it is a MUCH cleaner fit than I've achieved before.

For me, the challenge is in maintaining that base line
along the entire length. The trim router has a fixed
depth, and follows the 'perch' that each board
is clamped to, securely.

The trick is to have a stable perch that's wide enough
and verified to square along it's length.


blob:https%3A//www.youtube.com/ab715f73-f22a-4f9e-9ee2-a46597681973

Jim,

Give this a try;

I take a wide 8/4 board, make the bottom and one edge square and perpendicular to one another then clamp it along the baseline. After coping out the waste I will cut the baseline (last 1/16"~ ) all the way through from the show side to the other side. There is zero blow out if the chisel is sharp and the board is clamped tightly to the bench (sacrifice in between).

Just make sure it doesnt move off the line as you chop. I can do this with a paring chisel as well, but actually find it easier to chop.

This is what I use for wide panels. I have a router but I hate the noise.

[Mike Allen1010]

+1 to David's suggestion- if you're going the hand tool route, this will be a routine task. Making a large wooden square is a good project to work on your hand tool precision, and will be frequently used. Don't worry about the fractions of degrees of accuracy, David's method of checking square will get you well withn tolerances needed.

When final dimensioning/squaring panels be hand, crosscut and plane the.end grain, before ripping to final width, that way if you have spelching, which you will, you just rip it off- no need for backing board.

For planing the end grain after cross cutting, I like orienting the panel vertically in face vice. IMHO, you don't need a giant shooting board. You'll get great square/straight accuracy with a little practice. It's worth having a bevel up jack plane if only for this job, works like a faint block plane for end grain and easy to quickly sharpen and get back to work.

Great question Christian, dimensioning panels by hand with saw, layout tools and Planes is really much easier than it may appear. Once you have this down, the TS really seems much less essential.

Best, Mike

[Jim Matthews]

Thanks for the tip.

The backer board is something I had not employed.
Next big cabinet, I'll try it out.

kudos

[Joe A Faulkner]

... Once you have this down, the TS really seems much less essential.

Best, Mike

That and a collection of a gizzillion handsaws! :)

[Stanley Covington]

I used to do this a lot when I worked with my tools, so here is my two cents.

Make sure both long-grain edges are straight, square and parallel.

Plane one edge, called the "reference edge" straight and square as you can. Mark it with an "R" or an "X" or whatever so you will know it is the Reference Edge.

Next, cut and plane opposite long-grain edge parallel to the Reference Edge. A marking gauge with a blade works best.

Unless you are truing the edges of very long boards, or need to hog a lot of wood, it does not make sense to clamp boards on edge in a vise, and plane them with the plane resting on the thin edge. A quicker and more precise method is clamp the board to be trued to your very flat workbench with a board of uniform thickness sandwiched between the board and benchtop to provide clearance for the sides of the plane. The plane must be trued and adjusted so its side and sole and cutting edge are at precisely 90 degrees. Then, with the plane on its side, run it along the edge of the board to be trued, and plane to your layout line. This method ensures the edge is square, and gives you a lot more control of the cut since you don't need to focus on keeping the plane balanced on a thin edge. In essence, you have used your benchtop as a shooting jig. I used to have a long shooting boards for this purpose, but while they save time, they are not absolutely necessary.

The layout line is easiest to cut to precisely and quickly if it is made with a blade rather than a pin or a pencil.

Next square the ends. This is where a very accurate framing square (or drywall square if you are doing very wide boards) comes in handy for layout, but a 3-4-5 triangle will work with extra time. It is worth the effort to true a framing square if only to save this time time doing such layout.

While both long-grain edges are supposedly straight, square, and parallel now, it is wisest to do your layout only from the reference long-grain edge. Use a knife for the layout. Use the same shooting method I described above. You may need to clamp some waste to the end to prevent grain blowout. When this edge is straight and square and 90 degrees to the reference edge (and the opposite long-grain edge too for that matter), mark this end with an R or X to indicate it is a reference edge.

Repeat for the other end, but don't mark it as a reference edge.

With a bit of practice, and the right tools, this process can be accomplished quickly, confidently, and with high precision.

If you plan to edge-glue boards, you can clamp two of them, one on top of the other, to your benchtop as described above, and plane their edges at the same time to get a perfect fit during glue-up.

Stan

[Josh Doran]

Get accurate marks on the wood and cut just shy of them with a handsaw and finish to the line with an edge-tool, usually in this instance a hand plane. If you can get a good mark on the wood you're 95% of the way there. An eleven year old can be taught how to saw shy of a line and square enough to the face so as not to affect cleanup to the line.

Hand tool woodworking relies on knowing how to mark individual cuts and laying out joints. Layout is EVERYTHING. Frankly, I'd use your shooting board as kindling the next time it gets chilly. I can't stand the bloody things.

A better question is how to get square layout lines on a big panel if you don't have a large square that's accurate. You didn't ask that question.

Funny timing. I'm in the middle of the ATC build myself. Just finished gluing up the dovetailed carcass. I had the same issue with squaring up large panels. At first I used a homemade wooden square, but found it kept moving on me. I eventually wound up clamping a 24" straight edge down with the aid of a square. Tedious but effective. Just took my time making sure my knife lines matched. Then I sawed shy of the line and beveled the knifed edges all around before planing. The bevel made it easy to see what areas needed work without stooping to check my lines.

[Mike Allen1010]

I'm probably a little late with this, but here are a couple pictures of squaring up/final dimensioning of a large panel. Shop made large square is a fun project to build, is easy to adjust to a high level of accuracy and I use mine all the time.
313975

After the reference long edge (with the grain) is established, use the square to mark with the marking knife the cross cut dimensions. Saw to the line and then clamp this on edge vertically against the front of the bench. I have a twin screw front vice and a sliding dead man that makes this pretty easy. For me, planning end grain while it is held vertically, is easier than a large shooting board because the weight of the tools bearing directly on the surface being planed. With a little practice, you can fairly easily get this dead straight/square. A bevel up Jack plane is a great tool for planning the end grain to the layout line and for me a "must-have" tool for this job alone, but any jack or larger plane will do. The extra mass a larger planes helpful in getting square edge on the end grain.
313979

You don't have to worry about any spelching, if you rip it to final with after you've plane the end grain square– you will rip off the spelching. A shop made panel gauge is another handy tool for laying out final width parallel to the reference edge. The fence of mine, shown in the picture is really too narrow to prevent any "rocking" of the cutting edge on the end of the beam. Someday I'll get around to making a larger fence.if you're going the Neaanders roof, a large square and panel gauge are for me to fundamental tools I really rely on – and fun projects to make to boot!


313976


All the best, Mike

[Joe Bailey]

Thanks Mike -- Good stuff!

[Scott Winners]

I am bumping this thread because I used this/these method(s) today and it worked terrific. In a simlarly aged thread there was a tip to use a rasp to bevel from the end of the board down to near the knife line, then plane off the bevel with relative abandon and then go slow and careful as you sneak up to the knife line. It is a beautiful thing, I like this much better than building another, bigger shooting board.

FWIW the front face of my bench top, vise leg and front stretcher all lie in the same plane, so no bow introduced with the clamping. Pictured panel is nominal 12 x 36 x 0.75. I will try a 1x2 while I work through the other three panels for this project and maybe send my shooting board to the great dustbin in the sky. I have never liked using a shooting board, I know I have built at least two of them.

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