Floor finishing question

[Dick Holt]

This may be a little OT, but floors are wood, right? I am in the process of refinishing my LR floor. It has been sanded and is ready to have the poly applied. Question is, how do I put poly on a fairly large floor (24' x 15") and keep a wet edge so there won't be any lap marks? I have purchased a floor pad, but have never used one before and I have to admit that I am a little (OK, a lot!) concerned about how the finish will look. I have put in a lot of work to get to this point and don't want to screw it up. Suggestions?

[Mike Hollingsworth]

product has a lot to do with it. You will know after the first coat. Clean Clean Vacuum Tack Rag

[Scott Holmes]

Dick,

Here’s how I do floors...
I usually cut the poly ~20% with mineral spirits to roll it. I usually buy the satin. It's difficult to keep the flattening agent well mixed when rolling, but it is much easier to mix it often than it is to buff the floor if you use gloss. I think floors look best satin to semi-gloss more toward the satin.

Don't forget to sand lightly between coats (120 grit on floors is OK) if you let it dry longer than the recoat time on the can. ~ 8 hours or so. Poly has a nasty tendency not to stick to itself or anything else very well so the sanding is for mechanical bond between coats. If you recoat too long after the recoat time limit.

Depending upon the size of the room, a 7"-9" roller that is 1/4" thick foam is the best way to poly the floor. You will need a brush with natural bristles and the roller; roll the poly on the floor in an area small enough that you can reach it all without any difficulty (say 1' x 3'); then using just the tips of the brush, which is dampened with mineral spirits, gently drag the brush with the grain over the area you just applied the poly, go slowly and the brush will pop 99.99% of the 2 million bubbles the roller left on the floor.

This process is called "tipping off". Repeat with the next section; continue until the floor is finished. Wait 6-12 hours; check the can for recoat interval. Repeat. Thinned finish will dry to recoat faster than the can says; so, as long as you can walk on it without leaving marks you're good to go.

Let the floor dry for a day or 2; then LIGHTLY sand with 180 grit sand paper, wipe with a rag damp with mineral spirits (paint thinner) Apply 2 more coats as above. The floor will "off gas" (smell) for about 30 days, less each day. A fan blowing on it will help speed the curing.

If you are doing a large area and you do not want to sand the whole floor; get 3 coats on approximately 8 hours between coats; then leave it 72 hours or more.

It is best if you can wait a week to move any furniture onto the floor.

[Sam Murdoch]

I can surely relate to your concerns. As Mike writes, the product has a lot to do with it. I have "professionally" finished 4 floors in the past few years, 2 with a tung oil finish like Waterlox and 2 with lumber yard bought urethanes. Mixed results :confused:. Happy customers in the end but a few floors were wayyyyyyyy more work than they should have been. So, yes, I relate, but this is what I learned - pretty easy to keep a wet edge on narrow boards - 2" to 4" using a good lambs wool applicator with either poly or tung oils.

It is easiest to pour a generous squiggly line of the finish along the full length of 2 or 3 planks in the direction of the planks and then with a wet applicator walk along and level out the finish - the entire length of the floor. DON'T - DO NOT take your finish from a pan (paint tray) on the floor and walk a wet applicator to your work. Every drip mark is a problem waiting to defeat your best efforts. The real pros will work with a helper. The helper is the designated pourer and your job is to walk along the floor pulling the finish level. Try to apply a good even coat - thick rather than thin so that each pass is flowing/overlapping wet on wet. On wide plank floors 8" or more this technique works only as well as your applicator is wide.

A few other cautions:

1) Work in a cool room if you can and best not to have lots of airflow as you work. If you need to run fans to ventilate best to turn those on after the finish is applied.

2) For poly in particular that dries fast compared to tung oil you don't want to use a roller as air bubbles never really dissipate. (Unless you use Scott's tipping off method as noted above - while I was writing) :)

3) The lambs wool applicator should be wet with solvent or water for a water based poly, and worked well with your fingers or a stiff brush to pull out any loose fibers before you get into the finish.

4) Of course, plan your exit strategy :rolleyes:.

5) Finally, don't be frenzied. Slow and steady is a good approach as long as you have thought through the process and maybe even practiced a dry run.

Good luck. Maybe some real pros will chime in here before you begin for extra confidence or confusion. :)

Sam

[Pat Barry]

Would the techniques described by Scott and Sam also apply for refinishing a engineered floor? Floor is approx 5/8 " thick, with a top layer of approx 1/8 to 3/16" thickness. I was told when we bought it 12 years ago that it could be "screened" 2X. The floor could use some help, particularly around the patio door area. I was leaning towards a poly finish and appreciate Scott's comment about the satin finish for flooring. I think gloss might be too glossy but I didn't think the satin finish would be robust enough (don't ask me why, just don't recall seeing satin listing floors on the can).

[Scott Holmes]

There is no difference in the performance of the gloss or satin finish only the sheen is different. Engineered floors (prefinished) are usually finished with an extremely durable 2 part conversion varnish.

You will need to scuff sand it after cleaning it very well, to get the poly to stick.

[Sam Murdoch]

Yes to using these techniques on such a floor. As to the preference for satin or more sheen - the caution with satin is that is has flattening agents which must be kept properly in suspension as you apply the finish. To quote Scott: "It's difficult to keep the flattening agent well mixed when rolling, but it is much easier to mix it often than it is to buff the floor if you use gloss. I think floors look best satin to semi-gloss more toward the satin." Semi- gloss is OK too if you aren't talking about a brightly sun lit room, but I'm inclined to agree with Scott that a satin finish on a floor is preferable. That's just a question of taste.

[Scott Holmes]

To clarify my comment on keeping the flattening agent in suspension...

When doing floors, my wife usually does the roller part and I tip it off. I encourage her to get the roller down to the bottom of the pan to keep it mixed.

Most often when I need to do a floor I have the store put the poly on the paint shaker to ensure the satin is well mixed. I even had one big box store employee tell me "he could not put it on the shaker"... I ended up having to tell the manager that I was "spraying it" so he would shake it for me.

[Dick Holt]

Thanks for the info guys. I have not decided yet whether I will roll and tip off with a brush or pour and use a pad. I have the supplies to do both. Guess I will have to decide by tomorrow (Sat.) since I will be starting then. I may start with one method and then switch if I don't like how it is going. Thanks again for your help.

Dick

[Rich Engelhardt]

(misery loves company!!)


Roll and tip = standing up to roll, then getting down on all 4's.
Pour and applicator pad = standing up and using an extension pole.Plus some down on all 4's with a brush.

I find as I've gotten older that, while the spirit is willing, the kness and the rest of me is unable to do all the up/down stuff without it really taking it's toll.
The first thing to go out the window is any sort of thought of "quality of finish" when the fatigue takes over. My only thought is to just survive long enough to finish - no matter how good or bad the appearance.

I have three bedrooms, a living room, a hall and a dining room to finish today and over the course of the next few days. The sanding-of-the-floors ritual kicks off an about a half hour from now. (No - make that an hour - can you tell I'm putting off picking up a two hundred pound sander and unloading it from the van by myself?)

Since I need to use some Seal Coat to seal in some pet odors, I'll be using a brush on the whole thing first.
I may just use slap some knee pads on and brush the finish on also.

There's really no right or wrong or best way to apply a finish to a floor so long as the desired outcome is achieved.

Just follow the drying times and procedures on the can and you'll be fine.
I've lost count of the number of floors I've done.
Satin is the way to go if you're not experinced. It's much more forgiving w/respect to surface blemishes.
A lone speck of dust in the middle of a gloss finished floor sticks out like a sore thumb.

(I'll hoist a cold one for you in about 6/7 hours when the sanding is done and the sucking-up-of-the-dust ritual begins....I'm, figuring this is going to be about a twelve pack project ;) )

[Dick Holt]

Rich,
I hear ya! My new best friend is the giant economy size bottle of ibuprofen!!!!

Dick

[Rich Engelhardt]

So Dick - - how'd your floors turn out?
;)

Mine ended up about half sanded after 12 hours... :(.
I got the 40 grit sanding done and the living room and dining room done with 80 grit.
I still have 3 BR and a hall to 80 grit, and the whole thing to 120 grit.

LOL! & yes - Saturday was a 12 pack kinda day ;).

I told the guy at HD when I returned the sander Sunday morning, "I've been divorced, had a kidney stone, an IRS audit, a root canal - - and I've used THAT (pointing to the sander)."
He just chuckled,,,,

[Scott Holmes]

I've polyed many hardwood floors that were sanded no finer than 60 or 80 grit. As long as there are no cross grain scratches you will not see a difference when you are finished.


If you get a helper to roll the poly on the floor and you tip it off; you will not need to get up and down and it will go pretty quickly.

[Rich Engelhardt]

Scott,
I'm going to have to stain the floors & I'm afraid there might be some swirls left by the sander that I can't see until they show up with the stain.
I used a U-Sand on the floors - which is a big giant ROS w/4 6" disks - not a drum sander.
Being a ROS, it does go cross grain.

My wife is the hired help....
She's gotten to be ok with some things,,,but,,,rolling the floors isn't something she's quite ready to tackle.

[Scott Holmes]

Make sure you get rid of cross grain scratches if you plan to stain. You can still use 80 grit just use a belt sander or in-line sander. If your wife has ever used a roller on the wall; doing the floor is easier. She just spreads it out with a foam roller you tip it off.

[Sam Murdoch]

I must respectfully disagree with Scott on this one. If you are not very comfortable using a belt sander you could be creating way more of a mess than you would ever want. Don't know if you are sanding oak or pine or other - but in any case I would not sand (for staining) with anything less than a good pad in-line sander or a good ROS with hard pad and end the sanding process with no less than 120 grit, possibly 150 or 180 depending on the hardness of your floor wood. The stain will telegraph any sanding marks but you might not see them until you are well in to your second coat of finish. A belt sander is not a tool that indulges the beginner. If your rooms aren't filled with sunlight you might be get away with less work but in a well lit room it's just not worth not doing the extra work.

Sam

[Scott Holmes]

Sam I agree with you if the stain is dark; if it's a golden oak or lighter and it's a red oak floor, i think an 80 grit with the grain will be fine. YES a belt sander can really make a mess in rookie hands; I saw a nice white oak front door the other day that looked like a second grader sanded it.

I don't think a ROS in rookie hands would be too good either. A screen pad sander on a stick as you do with drywall would be an option.

[Rich Engelhardt]

The floors are white oak.

I plan to take them to 120 grit with the U-Sand and check them to see if I need to go to 150 or not.

I'm going to be using MinWax oil stain - Golden Oak - on all the flooring.
The part I'm still up in the air about is using the Seal Coat.
I'd prefer to use it after the stain and before the first coat of water poly.
I may have to use it as a pre stain though. We'll see how the final sanding turns out.

Re: my wife and rollers...
She does fine on walls where spreading out the paint too far isn't much of a problem and over working the material doesn't cause issues.
I can see her habit of doing that if/when she'd use a clear coat as being a problem.
Plus the time frame involved with this project is probably going to find me alone doing the actual finish work while she's at her regular day job.

My best bet is to stick with the "pour and applicator pad" routine.
I just have to work out the timing for that as far as what order the rooms are done in so I can get them all done in one 12 hour day.

[Jason Roehl]

The typical professional way of applying floor finish is to use a T-bar applicator along with the "pour and snowplow" method. If you get the right applicator for your T-bar (angled ends vs. straight cut), with a little care you won't even need a brush around the edges of the room. If the finish doesn't come in a container conducive to pouring, a cheap, plastic watering can with the shower head removed is handy.

I avoid oil-based floor finishes. I hate them. Shellac (Zinsser SealCoat) and waterborne finishes for me.

[Rich Engelhardt]

I avoid oil-based floor finishes. I hate them. Shellac (Zinsser SealCoat) and waterborne finishes for me.
Any preference on a decent one?

I was looking at them last week and have settled on the Parks Pro water poly.
I'm open to anything though that's compatible with Seal Coat and an oil based stain.

[Dick Holt]

Rich,
LOL, I know what you mean about the sander. I rented a four disc ROS sander from HD. I sanded thru four grits; 36, 60, 80 and 100. Next time (yeah right, there will never be another time!) I would only use three. Wouldn't you know after I finished sanding the floor, I was at Lowe's buying some Varathane floor finish (satin oil base) I noticed that they rent a Varathane 3 disc sander for $37, which I have heard is a lot easier to use. I paid $73 at HD. I really like the Varathane floor finish, it is much clearer than the Minwax I used last time. My wife and I put on the third (of 4) coats yesterday as soon as she got home from work . During the day I sanded, vacuumed and wiped the floor down with MS during the day (I retired last year. My wife still works to support me and pay for my tools!). It is raining today , not a good drying day, so I may just prep the floor and finish it tomorrow. One trick I used that helped my back a lot is to tape a brush to a pole so that I don't have to bend over for 2-3 hours. Using Scott's method, my wife rolled a strip of 4 boards (about the width of the roller) all the way across the floor, about 25 feet. Then I took the brush, on the pole, and went over what she had just done, as quickly as I could. Then I went back and tipped off the boards one at a time from one end of the floor to the other without lifting the brush off the floor. I have a bad back and after doing the first two coats on my knees, bent over, I just couldn't continue that way. Looking at the floor this morning, it looks awesome. Not one brush mark anywhere. I know you mentioned using water based finish, but one of the most important things I did was to thin the poly by about 20% with MS. Flows and levels much better. And how are You doing?

[Scott Holmes]

I will add that the Varathane oil-based Poly floor finish with nanotechnology is excellent; my 1st choice on oil-based floor finishes. One of the nicest features is that the satin flattening agent stays well mixed.

[Chris Padilla]

How about some pics, Folks?! :)

[Rich Engelhardt]

231149

Chris, here's a before of a section I had to redo.
I'll take another shot of the same area after all the stain and finish is on.
(I'm crossing my fingers that it turns out looking better ;))

All the floors in the house were in similar bad shape. The boards in the dining room were so warped and water damaged we had to replace the entire 10'x 10' section.
The tenant had used the dining room to kennel her three dogs. (nice huh?)
She also insisted on cleaning the wood floors with Clorox and water - no doubt in an attempt to control the pet odors.

Dick,
Yep - I used the same 4 disk machine - the U-sand.
I had to split it into two sessions - all day Saturday, then about 5 hours last evening.
I had to go with a 24 hour rental both days since the house is an hour and 15 min drive away.

I'd love to use Varathane on the floors, but, I'm a bit gun shy about using it over Zinsser Seal Coat.
Varathane may claim new technology, but, from everything I can find, it's one of the last poly's out there that's good old "liquid plastic".
The good old time stuff that was both hard and tough.

LOL! Glad to hear you survived the ordeal!
My finishing fun is still ahead.
I still have three rooms left to edge w/a ROS and 80 grit, then the whole house to edge w/120 grit.
I'm hoping to get that done today & get the stain on.
The stain has to dry 72 hours before the water poly can go on.
If I miss the today deadline, I'm stuck until next Monday getting the finish down.

[Scott Holmes]

Shellac that has been dewaxed is an excellent sealer for the finishes out there in the big box stores and the woodworking stores.

Shellac is the universal sealer...

[Rich Engelhardt]

Shellac is the universal sealer...

Dewaxed shellac - there - fixed it for ya ;).

Seal Coat does say it's 100% safe under any finish.

OTOH - the Varathane label specifically says to remove any shellac.
They (Varathane) don't make any distinction between dewaxed shellac and natural shellac.

W/the time crunch we're under, I can't afford any more things on this house to go wrong, no matter how slight the chance.
If anything at all goes wrong, for whatever reason - related to the Seal Coat or not - Varathane has the out printed right on the label.
Since it usually always boils down to the last coat failing, then I'm sure Zinsser (RPM) would point the finger at Varathane - (which is also RPM, but, a different division).

Sadly, I have to use the Seal Coat since it's needed to seal in the last traces of pet odors. (That black stain in the above is from the dog not quite making it out the door..)
I'd love to be able to just stain the floors to even out things, then put on two coats of Varathane and be done with it.
I'm afraid I'm going to have to play it safe though and put on the stain, wait 72 hours, put on the Seal Coat and then give it 4 coats of water poly.

Everything in this house that was supposed to work, hasn't.
The walls are a perfect example.
They were a dark colored semi gloss. We washed and rinsed them, then primed with Bullesye 1-2-3 - the good one, the interior/exterior.
When we rolled the finish coat on, it alligatored. I went back, scraped/sanded, reprimed and recoated, and it alligatored.
I had to scrape/sand and prime with BIN, then give it two coats of flat latex.
I've never had 123 fail on me like that.

There's something contaminating the surfaces that I just can't put my finger on.
The house is downwind of the steel plant and has been for 50 plus years.
If the paint had failed down to one of the older layers, that might account for the problem.

It didn't though. The 123 failed down to the paint the tenant had applied within the last 5 to 7 years.
It also happened in multiple rooms, painted at different times.


Sorry for going on like this.....
I'd try the dewaxed shellac/Varathane if things were different, but, I can't risk getting in the middle of a pointing match if anything goes wrong.

The double sad part of the whole thing is that it's a shame that soo much work is going into this for, what amounts to nothing,,or worse yet, a waste of good money.
We've slaved over this place for 4 months now, working like dogs and poured buckets of money into fixing it up - just to see the value go down as we work on it...

[Scott Holmes]

Rich,

If there is something contaminating stuff; Shellac if your friend. Varethane will stick to dewaxed shellac no problem. The waterborne finish is much less likely to stick to the oil based stain and or the unknown contaminate.

[Rich Engelhardt]

Scott,
I'm going to chance it with the Varathane I think...
Every time we've done something on this house "by the book", something weird has cropped up.
That and - we're out of time on this.
We really don't have the extra 48 hours of drying time called for with the water poly.

[Scott Holmes]

Get some box fans blowing across the floor to help the drying process of the stain. 24 hours with fans should be fine.

[Rich Engelhardt]

The stain I put on Wed night was dry by Thurs morning, so, I figure what I put on Thurs should be good to coat come Saturday.
I came -><- this close to putting the Seal Coat on the rooms I stained Wed, yesterday after I finished up with the staining - but - the beer ran out!
LOL!

Probably a good thing though since my old body was really screaming after the workout.
This place is going to kill me yet.

[Dick Holt]

Rich,
Would you like me to send you my giant economy size bottle of ibuprofen? I am finished with it (for now)!!!!! I put the last coat (number 4) of Varathane on wednesday night. Floor came out beautiful! Scott's method (slightly modified) worked well. Thanks Scott.

Dick

[Rich Engelhardt]

Dick,
I'll pass on the Ibuprofen - but - thanks!
The cold beer is enough pain killer & a pretty good incentive to boot ;).

I set a "goal" for myself for each part of the room and whenI finished that part, my reward was a can of cold pain killer. :D

BTW:
http://www.amazon.com/Shur-Line-05500C-Extender-Brushes-Extension/dp/B000G0IFEW

Should you ever get real crazy again and do another floor, the above brush holder works a lot better than tape.
I bought one years ago when I had my painting company to do the peak of a Victorian house that was way up there beyond the reach of a 40' ladder.

[Rich Engelhardt]

Varathane turned out great.
Nice product. First time I used it on anything this large.

Very easy to keep a wet edge with it & once reduced slightly w/mineral spirits it flowed out and leveled very well.
The only 4" brush I had with me was a cheap synthetic.
Even with a somewhat junk brush, the Varathane flowed out well and left no brush marks.

Main drawback to it was the long dry times between coats.
I had to give each coat (I ended up putting down 3) nearly 48 hours to dry before it would sand well.
No doubt this was due to the house being closed up.
It's a rental that's over 50 miles away and in an area I'm not comfortable w/ for leaving windows open w/no one around.

Thanks for the tip on the Varathane Scott.

[Rich Engelhardt]

I'm dragging this one back from the dead to make a comment about how poorly the Varathane held up.

The tenant moved into this house shortly after the floors were done back in 2012, and, she just moved out two weeks ago.

The bedrooms look fine and the dining room looks fine - - but - -in the living room, where people would place their feet when sitting on the chairs &/or couch, the finish is very worn and discolored. It looks horrible!
I'm very disappointed in how poorly the Varathane has performed. I'm going to attempt to restore the worn areas by using some Bona Hardwood Floor Restorer followed by some Bona polish to even things out.

3 coats was obviously not enough.....

On the other floors I did, I used waterborne poly of one brand or another and applied 4 coats all told. Those floors are holding up great.I don't believe I'll use the Varathane oil anymore.