Carbide turning tools: Harrison specialities?

[Chris Kennedy]

I just bought my first lathe (JET 1220) and I am looking at chisel sets. The various brands and types have my head reeling. I found these on Amazon:

http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00723JN6U/

Does anybody have any experience with them? The set is pricey, but if I could have carbide, I think I would prefer that to high speed steel.

Cheers,

Chris

[Alan Trout]

Chris,

This is my opinion. I have used both carbide and High speed steel tools. First learn to use and sharpen a bowl gouge, spindle gouge, spindle roughing gouge and a skew. These tools can do things that no carbide tools can do. Then if you want to use carbide go ahead and do it but you will have more options if you can use a conventional set of tools first.

Good Luck

Alan

[John Keeton]

Chris, having never used a carbide tool, I shouldn't express an opinion - but, I will! I know there are lots of folks that use them very effectively, but I really think it depends largely on what you want to turn. Alan is right on starting with gouges - this is the best time for you to learn tool technique and the various cuts. There is no way I could use carbide tools for the type of work I do. For other types of turning, they may do fine. After all, they are nothing but scrapers.

[David DeCristoforo]

There have been numerous discussions of carbide tools here. Search the forum and you will find them and a lot of opinions regarding them.

When I first started turning, I had no understanding of how gouges and skews were used. I just stabbed at the wood with them and got the expected results. Horrible catches, tons of tear out, broken pieces, the works. I'm not the most patient person in the world and I wanted to make something, not just destroy wood learning to use the tools properly. I would have loved to take some classes (reinventing the wheel is not the absolutely best way to go) but time and budget constraints precluded this. Sure I watched all those youtube videos, just like everyone else. But in the course of the better part of an adult lifetime working worth wood and tools I had learned something. Using tools requires skill. Skill is partly understanding and knowledge and that part can be taught. Reading books, watching videos and attending demonstrations are good ways to gain that knowledge. But there is another component of skill that cannot be taught in this manner. For lack of a better word, I will call it "feel". As you practice, you begin to develop feel. You know how the tool feels when it's cutting right. You know how it feels when you are taking too big a bite. You can feel the grain starting to tear right through the handle of the tool and you understand how to correct for it. The only way to acquire this feel is to work with the tools. How much time it takes to develop the necessary feel can vary wildly from person to person.

OK, now about those carbide tools (remember? that's what we were talking about?) As many have pointed out, these tools are primarily scraping tools although they can be used in other ways once you get used to them and once you understand how wood is cut on a lathe. But scraping is very easy when compared to cutting with a gouge or a skew, especially for the novice. Scraping is done on the centerline with the tool held flat on the rest and it is relatively easy to control these tools. Oh, yes, there will be a lot of sanding involved. But the likelihood of your actually being able to produce a turned object is greatly enhanced. In addition, you can do this without the additional skills needed to get and keep "conventional" tools sharp.

If there is a "trap" here it would be that you become "dependent" on the scrapers and never learn how to properly sharpen or use the other tools. This would be a great disadvantage because the capabilities of gouges and skews greatly exceeds that of scrapers, carbide or not. So here's what I would suggest. Go ahead and get a few carbide tools. Use them and enjoy some successes while you are learning. But use the other tools too and develop a feel for them. Learn how to keep them sharp. Over time, as your skill level develops, you will find yourself reaching for the scrapers less and less and maybe even get to where they are just gathering dust. But in the meantime, you can produce some decent pieces which will go a long way towards allowing you to experience more than frustration.

[Harvey M. Taylor]

Well said, David. Max

[Bernie Weishapl]

You've gotten some excellent advice. I would echo what DD, John and Alan said. I do have some EWT carbide tools but didn't get them till I had been turning for several years because of the advice of some on here. Again on the advice of some I bought this set when I started turning. http://www.pennstateind.com/store/LCHSS8.html I still use most of these tools today even though I have gotten more expensive tools. Get to know the tools, how to sharpen them and how to use them. I would also find a club near you or someone near you that you could mentor with. There are several members on here in the Virginia area that I am sure would be more than happy to help. There are at least 10 AAW chapters in Virginia. Woodcraft is another good place for lessons on turning.

[Wally Dickerman]

The best advice I can give you regarding tools is...Do yourself a big favor and sign up for a turning lesson. If you have a Woodcraft store in your area, they have experts who give lessons. A good instructor will not only teach you the proper use of the tools and how to sharpen them, he/she will give you good advise on what tools to buy.

A good instuctor will save you many trial and error headaches in learning how to turn.

I taught turning at woodcraft stores for 10 years and I can tell you there is no subsitute for hands-on learning.

[Roger Chandler]

There is a Woodcraft store in Janiff shopping center ....Military Hwy, in Norfolk [at the corner of Military Hwy and Virginia Beach Blvd.] where the Tidewater Turners meet monthly, and they are a fine club with many excellent turners..........go to one of their meetings............get the info on their website...just look up Tidewater Turners, and you will find their web pages, and get info on their meetings.

You can't go wrong with this kind of help!!!! Good luck!

[Al Wasser]

Keeton says "nothing but scrapers". Do I detect some bias against scrapers?

[John Keeton]

Keeton says "nothing but scrapers". Do I detect some bias against scrapers?Al, no bias here. I just do not use scrapers much, though folks like Reed Gray and others can work wonders with them.

For me, learning to turn is somewhat akin to learning to drive. IMO, it is better to learn to drive on a standard shift as that is when one is developing the various skills used in operating a motor vehicle. If you don't learn to drive a stick shift at the beginning, it is doubtful you ever will. I feel the same about the carbide tools. They probably have their place, but starting out, I think one is best served by learning the various tool techniques of gouges. If, at a later point, one wants the ease and quickness of the carbide tools, then have at it!

For the type of turning I do, I just have not seen the need. Obviously, they are very popular and work for a lot of folks.

[Chris Kennedy]

Thanks for the advice. I have been looking at a whole mess of different types of chisels and the like, trying to decide what would be a good initial purchase. I am considering several "starter" type sets so that I have something to experiment with and then specialize as need arises.

Chris

[Richard Allen]

I have never used the carbide tools pointed to. I have used a couple of Hunter tools from time to time. I find turning quicker and more predictable using bowl gouges. Perhaps if I had started off using carbide tools (they were not available when I started14 years ago) I would find those tools quicker and more predictable.

As more experience is gained with the carbide insert tools there will be more demonstrations using carbide insert tools. As more woodturners see carbide insert tools being used to good effect more turners will add the use of carbide insert tools to their workflow.

[Vernon Jenewein]

Not an endorsement, merely a video showing use: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1qadKSh2du0
I bought one and have just set up my small lathe in the small quonset. I needed to make a table long enough for the bed extension and clean out some accumulated "junk" that was needed for room. Then, I wired it with 120 on that side today. I'll give it a try soon. I'll interject my thoughts, even though I'm just a newbie turner. Sharp point/edge is what a tool is, any tool. I've worked with hardened steel at Boeing when I worked there years ago. Carbide is sometimes the only thing that will do and keep sharp enough, long enough to be feasible. My tool I bought has a 6" radius, and you can get others as well, even round. Nothing is quite as tough and resilient for cutting as carbide. Brittle to a T. But, it has a sharp edge that, in wood, should remain sharp long after you've had to sharpen those HSS tools several times. I've seen diamond shaped carbide inserts that would be perfect for doing a lot of fine work. Delicate touch is what is needed. Scraper? Pretty much all of them are scrapers to some degree. Wood has to meet and edge somewhere and the momentum just chips it away. Carbide's unforgiving sharp edge it more likely to "cut" than to scrape away wood. Nice thing about them is when the DO get dull enough to warrant changing, it is merely a 1/4 turn and you have a fresh new edge to cut with.
Also, here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RjF8JM714EU

[Kirk Miller]

I will echo what has been expressed and say to get a class scheduled. Then after the class take time to practice what was taught at the class. Check around for turning clubs that may offer classes. I bought a cheap set of tools from harbor freight and still use them to this day. I have many different tools now but several from that set have are in the top 10 of my favorite tools.

[Tim Rinehart]

Chris, some good advice here especially with regards to getting the basics down first with conventional HSS gouges.
There is a difference among type of carbide tools out there, with some that are pure scrapers and others that do shear the wood fibers like a gouge riding a bevel.

Since most folks are familiar with both Easy Tools and Hunter Tools...I'll break it down using them for a reference.

Easy Wood tools are scrapers. Period. Most all their tools (hedging in case I forget an exception) are presented in a way that has the flat topped (zero rake) cutter horizontal to the lathe and applied like a scraper. Because they stay sharp a long time, you can get very nice, very predictable results ... but not much better than you'd get with a sharp HSS scraper that is kept sharp. The EWT hollowing tools are made very well, and I know several experienced turners who swear by them for inside of hollow forms after seeing how well they work. They will leave tearout in some softer woods from my experience.

Hunter tools shear the wood fibers and at the least, shear-scrape. The tools are cupped (positive rake) and are held at an angle to the bed of the lathe to prevent a catch if held horizontally. They take more practice, but when you get the feel of them, they will provide a better surface than scraping, and will avoid tear out in all but the softest woods. Using these for hollowing, and working from the bottom of a vessel...they are pulled downhill to the largest part of the ID of the vessel and depending on shape of tool and vessel, you actually ride the bevel on these. Using them on the inside of the top of a vessel, their approach to the wood is more 'shear-scrape' and still provides a very nice surface finish.

Carbide really excels on hollowing woods that would otherwise beat the heck out of HSS and have you spending alot of time sharpening. Recent work I've done where all carbide was used include cherry burl and red mallee, both somewhat notorious for dulling tools.

Hope this helps.

[Stan Smith]

Yesterday I had written a long post here, but my login got dropped. I agree with all the posters on this thread. I'm hoping that this doesn't mean carbide tools should not be used in favor of gouges, scrapers, and skews. I consider myself to be an experienced rookie. I don't turn all the time because I have another hobby that's also time consuming-music. I just ordered the Harrison 4 carbide tool set. I've been using a couple of the beginner carbide tools and really like them. I did watch the Harrison demo video on their website and my initial reaction was Wow--that tool really can work fast. However, I then asked myself it working fast is what I really want to do. I enjoy watching the curls peel off when using a gouge just as I do with a hand plane. Also, I've found that when I try to rush something, I usually make some mistakes. I like the invention of the carbide tools, but I won't be using them exclusively. I'm down to just a mini lathe now since we've moved to a smaller place. The carbide tools do work well with a mini lathe and I haven't ever used my long and strong gouges with it that I used to use for bowl. I did just also order a bedan tool after seeing a guy turn an egg on a youtube. For me trying new and learning new is really a lot of fun. There's room in the turning realm for all types of tools, IMO.

[Jim Burr]

Carbide tools are just another tool...no different than a gouge or a skew. You will typically find people don't use them because they don't like new things. Automatic transmissions and air conditioning are new things respectively. Learn to use all of your tools well and in what circumstances it could\should be used. The more tools you use well...the better turner you become. Then you can learn to debate the "I can only afford two turning tools" argument.

[Reed Gray]

Okay, scrapers again, I have to comment. I learned to use scrapers out of curiosity. What do those that know how to use them know that I don't know..... I learned scrapers before the carbide tipped tools came out. Two differences between carbide and standard scrapers. One is that you don't sharpen the carbide tips. They can be touched up a bit, but are designed to use, rotate a time or 3, and toss them away. The standard scrapers are very easy to sharpen. The other difference is that generally the carbide tipped tools have smaller cutting surfaces than standard scrapers, which makes them easier to control. That ease of use is only a matter of using the standard scrapers for an hour or two. Like any tool, if you stick too much of it into the wood at one time, you stall the motor, or the tool gets yanked out of your hands if you don't have a proper grip. Well, maybe a third difference, standard scrapers are easier to do a bevel rubbing cut with than the carbide tipped tools. Go to You Tube and type in robo hippy. I have one clip up where I turn a bowl with just scrapers. Learning to use gouges and scrapers is as important as learning how to sharpen.

robo hippy

[Stan Smith]

I agree. There is a learning curve for all tools. I find it very interesting to watch different turners use a single tool for so many different things because they have learned to use that particular tool so well. I guess we all have our "standbys" that we reach for the most often. One of mine is an oval shaped skew. I just made my first Christmas bird house ornament from a kit. With the square carbide scraper I was able to turn a 1/8th inch perch peg 1" long with a small filial on one end. This the first time that I've ever turned something that small and I was surprised that it was even possible. I did a lot of pens this Christmas and I think that's about as small as I would like to go for most of the time.

[robert baccus]

I own a few carbide tools but mostly use the roughing tool some for roughing. Carbide tips stay sharper longer--true. It also stays sorta sharp and almost sharp longer also. I like to be able sharpen a tool when I need a sharp tool without spending 22$ for sharp. I power hone to 1200 grit when I need it for problem woods. It's hard to duplicate good gouge performance with anything else.

[Bob Bergstrom]

Carbide tools are just another tool...no different than a gouge or a skew. You will typically find people don't use them because they don't like new things. Automatic transmissions and air conditioning are new things respectively. Learn to use all of your tools well and in what circumstances it could\should be used. The more tools you use well...the better turner you become. Then you can learn to debate the "I can only afford two turning tools" argument.
Got to agree with Jim. I am always exploring different grinds and shapes. I have played with quite a few brands,I find they work for me when turned on angles and shear cut, or dropping the handle down and pulling the edge on the under side of a rim. One of our clubs turners ( nationally known) and uses gouges extensively use to laugh at the thought of using a carbide scraper, now uses them to take out the center of bird houses and boxes. Trues up the inside quickly. Bottom line it is just another tool in the arsenal. I must say I would never give up my gouges. I did make a carbide parting tool from a 10" saw blade. I get about 4 per blade depending on the number and grind of the teeth. They work well, stay sharp, and remove wood quickly, but it is just another way to get things done.

[Marc Himes]

I have limited experience with carbide tools, but found they work well, like any sharp scraper. I use the Bedan Tool and have a round nose scraper that i like to use as well. They seem to work as well as the carbide as long as are sharp. They are easy to make on your own if you have a source of high speed steel bars.

[steve worcester]

Carbide is just the metal, but in this instance it is the style of tools as well.

Most carbide tools are scrapers and will work the same as HSS scrapers, just that the edge will stay sharper longer. If it has a flat top. it is a scraper. If it has a gullet (sort of a flute) then it acts as a cutter. Nothing wrong with either, but a flat top doesn't work like a gouge, but a gullet cutter does, sort of. With a 1/2" gouge, you have a flute that ejects the chips, and with a carbide cutter, like a Hunter, you have a flute (the gullet) that ejects the chips as well. The issue is it isn't as deep which means you can't take as aggressive a gut as if it were a gouge.

I sell Hunter tools and use both gouges and carbide tools, but the carbides will not work the same as a HSS tool in regards to how big of a bite you can take. As a finishing tool, the Hunters work fantastic, but that is in relation to a gouge. You can get the same results from a gouge, and I feel you should learn to use them first. The learning curve is steeper, but the results are better, as the knowledge of tool handling that will guide through the future.
The Easy Wood and other flat top cutters/scrapers are designed to allow entry level turners to cut wood without the heartache of catches and issues related to learning to use a gouge. If they get easy entry they will more likely stick with the hobby. It isn't to say the flat top scrapers don't work, they do, but in most hands don't allow the same type of finish a gouge will.

[robert baccus]

Bob, your parting tool sounds interesting. How about expanding on that concept.

[Dave Mcintire]

Chris, I,m just up the road in Grafton. I,m no turning expert but I,ve been been assulting trees for a few years. If you want to stop by and talk chisels or what ever send me a PM. Bring a coat, its cold out in my shop now.

dave

[Stan Smith]

I received my tools yesterday. The handle is too big for a mini lathe, IMO, so I just ordered the pen tool handle which has the same size handle hole. don't know what I'll do with the long and strong handle that came with the 4 tool set. Within the next week, I'm going to list some lathe tools for sale that I bought and then didn't use very often or some not at all. Maybe I'll put the long handle up for sale with them.

[Reed Gray]

Stan, you do realize that the day after you sell the big handle, you will need it. Happens every time......

robo hippy

[Bob Bergstrom]

Bob, your parting tool sounds interesting. How about expanding on that concept.
I bought an Irwin 10" blade on sale at Menard's( you could use an old blade). I used a sawsall to cut two parallel lines lacross the blade keeping in mine that the carbide needs to be on that same plane. You could reshape the carbide tooth with a CBN wheel or rough diamond hone. When done it should have one tooth that is in line with the shank of the tool. I epoxy a handle on the opposite end.
Here is a picture of the blade prior to cutting it up. The " x " is the removal of excess teeth.

[robert baccus]

Brilliant and very original. Question--would the tool be more stable if you left the lower tooth and cut away above it perhaps. I've been wanting to make such a tool but wasn't smart enough to figure out your method.

[Bob Bergstrom]

Brilliant and very original. Question--would the tool be more stable if you left the lower tooth and cut away above it perhaps. I've been wanting to make such a tool but wasn't smart enough to figure out your method.
Don't think it would make much difference. I just adjust the edge till it cuts. I am surprise there aren't commercial versions. It cuts beautifully square fillets or square bottom grooves. No burning, because carbide is wider than blade. I have made them from 7 1/4" blades, which are thinner yet, but can't be as long because of blade size.

[Stan Smith]

You are so right, Reed. I guess that I'll keep it for now. I don't know when the other handle will get here either.