Waterstone questions - noob seeks help!

[John B Mooney]

Hi All -
I’ve been using “scary sharp” sandpaper technique to sharpen my blades, but haven’t been very satisfied with it, so I recently bought a set of Norton combination stones (220/1000, 4000/8000, and a flattening stone). I’ve just begun using them, but I’m new to sharpening with waterstones, and am seeking your wisdom. I looked through the posts trying to find answers, and I apologize if this has been asked and answered many times, but I couldn’t find it. I have four questions:


1 – How long do you go between stone flattenings? I discovered that my new stones weren’t particularly flat out of the box, and went to town on them to get them that way, but I’m wondering how often I’m likely to need to take a layer off my stones to keep them reliably flat. I realize the answer to the question will have a lot to do with what condition the blades I sharpen are in before I start, but for reference purposes, assume I’m working with new 1” chisels that are rough ground, but never honed (RC60 hardness). How many would you expect to sharpen before needing to re-flatten the stones(and how long before I need to re-flatten the flattening stone)?
Also, I’d expect to go through more stone sharpening a plane blade, but I’m not sure about that – what say you all?


2 – I like to have sharpening sessions and sharpen several tools at once (this may be a mistake, but it seems more efficient). What do you do to avoid grit contamination? Do you keep each stone in its own bath while sharpening? Dip the tool in a separate bath to rinse the slurry off to look at the edge, or just wipe it with a cloth? Do you clean the swarf off the stone between uses? If so, what do you use (I was thinking of an old toothbrush, but I don’t want to load the stones with plastic).


3 – Because I’m a rookie at this, I’ve been using a Veritas honing guide, but I’m wondering about the roller getting charged with grit and contaminating the stones (or just damaging the guide). If you use a guide, how do you keep it clean when shifting from one stone to another? What do you do to keep it clean between uses? (If the directions provided advice about this, I missed it, and I seem to have lost the directions at this point – grrr…)


4 – Finally, do you completely lap a blade through a series of grits before honing the bevel, or can one lap and hone at each grit in turn, so as to avoid moving back and forth through the grits more often (which I suspect will require more rinsing and cleaning to avoid contamination).


Thanks in advance for any thoughts or advice you may have.
- John

[Dale Coons]

There will be other answers, but here's mine:

1) Do yourself a favor and toss the norton flattening stone. I was skeptical of all the reports about how bad/out of flat they are and how often you have to flatten them, but they are all true. Save your pennies and get a good diamond stone. It only hurts once. I flatten my stones after every use, sometimes during use on the coarser stones if there's a lot of metal to remove, as when first flatting the back of some chisels or plane irons

2) I keep my waterstones in a bucket while sharpening, and rinse frequently. The grit sinks to the bottom. A sink works too. You don't need to scrub with a brush--if the stone is loaded, hit it with the flattening stone again, just a couple of light strokes will refresh the surface. Also, you will want to lightly chamfer the edges of the stone so they don't chip (experience talking...). Don't store norton stones in a bucket--let them dry when you're done.

3) That's a great guide. Rinsing cleans the roller. A very occasional drop of oil keeps it rolling smoothly.

4) Either. Rinsing is just part of the job. On a touch up of a tool, I know some that work thru all the grits, then start with the highest and lap each stone going to the next coarser grit without rinsing at all (finer grit on a coarser stone=OK).


Dale.

[John B Mooney]

Thanks, Dale -

I was afraid you might say that about the flattener. Oh well, not my first woodworking paperweight! :rolleyes:

Do you have a recommendation about which diamond stone to get? Do I need the coarse stone (325), or would the fine (600) do the trick? Also, do you use the stone wet for flattening? Do you bring the waterstone to the diamond stone, the other way around, or just rub the two together in the water? (the latter was recommended to me by someone who has very sharp tools that he sharpens with waterstones, but I worry that there's technique there that I haven't mastered and I may dish my stones by trying it.)

Thanks for the tip about chamfering the edge of the stones and letting them dry, as well as the rest of your answer.

- John

[Chris Griggs]

DMT 600 in my experience is too fine to do a good job flattening, get the 325 or coarser. Yes, wet the stones for flattening. I bring the diamond stone to the waters stone. Use a pencil to mark a grid on the water stone then rub the diamond stone on the water stone until the grid is gone. There's really nothing to it. I flatten before and during each sharpening session (which my be overkill), since stones can move while drying/resoaking, and to keep my stone from ever going really out of flat.

[George Beck]

I would highly recommend the DMT Dia Flat Lapping plate. http://www.chefknivestogo.com/dmtxxcexla.html The plate is heavy and very very flat. It holds up well with heavy usage. I think the key to using sharpening stones is flatness. If each grit is equally flat the sharpening proceeds rather quickly as the geometry is consistent. Here is another thing about water stones; You get a keener edge on a harder stone however the harder the stone, the more difficult to flatten. The softer the stone, the easier to flatten but it gets out of flat fairly quickly. I have over 30 various water stones but I keep coming back to two: Shapton (I use 1000, 5000, 15,000 pro stones) and Naniwa Corsera ( I use 400, 1000, 5000, 10,000). I know they are expensive but you get good results. Now all of the water stones today will yield a sharp edge. I have just found these two are quick. I like the fact that the Shapton's do not need soaking although soaking doesn't bother me. I like the "feel" on the Corsera's better. They are a tad softer.

I hope this helps and doesn't confuse.

George

[Archie England]

One question not yet addressed is, whether you should work the back and bevel together on each stone or take a blade through 1/4/8 for backs and bevels separately? Bevel and back need to be done together on the same grit. To achieve sharpness, you must raise a burr! Then you chase that burr by turning the blade from back to bevel until it diminishes. I typically use a plain leather strop to ensure that the burr is totally gone once I've reached my final stone. Typically, the burr will become smaller, and more difficult to feel, once you reach 6000 and above. However, your Nortons (like the older Shapton Pros, I think) reflect the older Japanese grit ratings and hence top out at about 5k in the newer grit ratings; so, you should feel the burr from 1k to 8k.


Like you, I started with SS then moved to Nortons. As noted above, the lapping plate goes out of flat just like the stones. It's good advice to buy a flattening diamond hone. I recommend the Atoma 400 over any DMT, based upon my experience. Either one, however, will cost you a little over $100. There's a fantastic, cheaper diamond hone sold by Tools from Japan--the iWood 300. It's half the cost of the Atoma or DMT, though you'll have to pay about $15 in shipping--but still worth it. If you consider this, also get the Sigma 400 (1st choice) or the King Deluxe 300 (2d, obviously) to replace the Norton 220, which is the worst stone I've ever used. Now, this may be only my experience, but it was way too soft and went out of flat very fast!

As for flattening, your Norton 1000 will need frequent flattenings--not so much to keep it flat though it does dish fairly quickly--but to renew the surface and cause it to work at maximum cutting speed. That stone is close to 700 (new grit rating) and when it loads (black swarf streaking the stone) its cutting ability is diminishing, turning more toward polishing. As Chris suggested above, use your pencil to mark a grid and take a couple of flattening swipes, stopping when the grid is gone.

BTW, start trying to free hand your blades. The sooner you lose the jig, the sooner you really start to benefit from and enjoy the waterstones. Do keep the backs totally on the stone--WITH NO LIFTING OR DIPPING! Do rock the bevel until you FEEL when it's flat. Two finger pressure on over that flat with the helping hand close to the blade edge, as well. I try to lock the handle along my wrist and forearm so that my blade and arm move in tandem without any sway or change in motion.

Good luck!

[David Weaver]

If you want a diamond flattener, and money matters, this is the one to get: search DMW8FCNB on amazon. It's what Chris is talking about. It'll give you a coarse (DMTs terms) 325 grit side for your stones, and you can use the finer 600 grit side to hone. They are flat, they work well on all stones, and at the time I looked it up, that one was $61.25 shipped on amazon. Stay way from (US) woodworking retailers for diamond stuff.

You can use the flattening stone with norton stones just fine, but you have to flatten the flattening stone, first. Wet and dry 60 grit on a flat surface will do it fine, as will any number of old school tricks (flat sidewalks, fresh flat sided concrete blocks). After that, you'll need to freshen the flattening stone every several dozen times you use it, and maybe you won't even need to do that, but it does need to start off flat (it may be already, but ensuring it doesn't hurt).

So if you don't want to spend the money on a diamond hone, you don't have to until or unless you start playing with harder stones. The hard ceramic stones and the norton flattener don't mix.

If you decide you want sharper, just buy the $7 green stick from a woodworking retailer (the one that says "microfine honing compound") or buy a big stick of it from formax (who I believe is the company that makes it based on the MSDS). The little stick will last eons. Use it on MDF (cut a piece of 3/4ths off and make it stone shape) and it will make an edge that is as good as any stone on the market, including a 30,000 shapton.

The nortons have a very good reputation on the razor forums. They are not as heavily pushed in woodworking, but use them and you'll like them. The only exception to general use that I'd make is the 220 - use that on bevels only and avoid using it for trying to flatten back of tools, it will provide you with frustration and a mess due to its inability to stay flat just in light use. Below 1000, I would generally stick with a grinder or if you need to work the backs of tools, stick down norton 3x or a roll of aluminum oxide paper to something flat.

[Dale Coons]

John, I use a Dia-Flat Lapping plate (4 x 12, about 3/8 thick steel plate, and heavy). Great 'bang for the buck', but still not cheap. And it will work for other types of stones including ceramic if you eventually decide to change. Others use different things, but this has worked well for me. I don't expect it really matters which way you do the flattening, I've tried all three methods you describe. The lapping plate I have is quite heavy, so rubbing together underwater works, but can be akward. I might find a lighter lapping plate works that way just fine.

I just rub the stone on the plate, making sure to switch ends of the stone under my hand to try and make sure the entire stone wears evenly. After the initial flattening, it usually takes just a couple of strokes to clean them off and keep them flat--and it doesn't require much more than the weight of the stone--you don't need to bear down on them. Some folks put pencil squiggles or a grid on the face of the stone before flattening which is a good way to see what's happening.

I'll also just say there are lots of sharpening options out there and you'll hear about them. I have a set of shaptons as well, but still use both. The nortons work well, with the exception of the flattening stone. They will probably last you a long time. I'd stick with them for a while--if you eventually want to try something else, go for it, but you'll be able to get a good edge as well as a good feel for sharpening with what you have.

[John Coloccia]

I flatten my stones with the coarse side of a DMT DuoSharp Coarse/Fine (blue/red). Between that, and an 8000 Norton, you have everything you need to sharpen. A strop helps too. I like the Norton 8000 because you don't need to soak it...just spritz it. I am thinking of picking up the flattening plate, though.

re: how long until you flatten
20 seconds or so... I flatten very quickly and often.

[George Beck]

Just to be a fly in the ointment, You will find that there are as many sharpening methods as there are woodworkers. And you know what? They all work! I have a friend that runs through all grit sizes in order (1000, 2000, 3000, 4000, 5000, 8000 etc.) and flattens on this $600 diamond plate! I know a master who uses a king 800 and a fine finishing stone (8000) only and flattens both on a cinder block. Both achieve stupid sharp edges. Experimentation and finding one's own path is part of this wonderful craft, in my opinion. It is also why I love sharpening discussions! Let move to pins first or tails first, shall we? Another Duck season- wabbit season debate.

[Stuart Tierney]

First, you've got the Nortons, they're good stones (if not the best) so stick with them. They work and that's all you need. Want? That's something else entirely...

To answer the questions, in order;

#1, every day and twice on Sundays. If I were you, I'd hunt down a piece of glass that's reasonably flat and a piece of wet and dry sandpaper of #120-240 grit. Use this to flatten the #1000, 4000 and 8000 stone surfaces. Keep it away from the #220. Flatten BEFORE you sharpen, and if you're noticing any dishing occurring, flatten again. Better to do lightly and often than rarely and heavily. I only suggest the sandpaper because they are Nortons, sandpaper is fine for them (they're relatively soft, no problems with paper) and the glass/W&D gadget is flat enough to get the job done reliably.

#2, wash off anything that touches the stone when you switch to the next one. That means fingers, guides and blades. So long as there's no sticking big globs of mud/slurry, you'll be fine. As mentioned, the Nortons are soft and any stray bits of coarse abrasive won't last long on the finer stone. Be clean, but no need to be fanatical.

#3,The roller will wear, nothing you can do about it. So long as you accept this as a given, nothing to worry about. It can and will affect things, but since it's metal on metal in an abrasive environment, wear will happen. Best advice is to keep everything as clean as possible as often as possible. I have one of these guides, and the roller is quite worn but it doesn't affect it's ability to work. The bent blade clamp is more of a concern to me (bent because the blades keep slipping!) and that's about it. Also make sure you apply any pressure to the blade's edge, not the roller.

#4, Work the back of chisels one time, get them as flat as you can and lapped to the finest stone you own (#8000). Should be clean, shiny and flat but don't get OCD if it's not perfect, only the very tip of a chisel needs to be clean and shiny. Then do the bevels repeatedly. As the back is already clean and lapped to a high finish (polish?), you'll only need to re-do the back with the finest stone after the bevel's been done with the finest stone. You may wish to do the bevel with the guide, then out of the guide and do the back and then freehand do the bevel, all on the finest stone. As I said, don't get OCD, so long as it's sharp enough for you and you can make it that sharp at will, that's enough.

Plane blades, get the back clean. No need for super flat, too much like hard work. But clean is easy to maintain and looks nice. Do the bevels up to the finest grit however you want to, then look up 'ruler trick' and do that to get a very small back bevel on the plane blade that matches the finish on the bevel. That'll get your plane blades as sharp as you can manage with what you have reliably, which is all you can ask for.

The trick here is not so much 'bleeding edge' sharp as it is being able to produce the best edge you can manage at any time you wish to have it and not be wondering "Is it sharp? Really sharp? I'm not sure, how can I be sure?"

For the time being, avoid temptation to go buying anything else. Use what you've got (except that 'flattening stone', lose that in a dark alley somewhere) and make stuff sharp.

If you must buy something diamond-like to flatten stones, look for the DMT 2 sided plate Dave suggested. It's cheap enough where you are and good enough for the job. Don't consider the Dia-flat unless you're absolutely certain, without any prodding from outside sources, that it's essential to what you need.

(I am not a fan of the Dia-flat at all. I think it's over hyped, under done and too expensive. Just not good enough at all.)

Stu.

[David Weaver]

I would agree with stu on the diaflat. I recall seeing that it is the 180 grit range or something, which to me is too coarse for stone use. I still haven't worn out any of my diamond hones on stones (not that you can't do it with the wrong stone, but with the stones mentioned and with almost any other medium and fine stone, no issue).

If one wants to spend their money, though, far be it from me to stop them, some days I am nickel and dime cheap, the next I may be a money-spending pig of the first degree.

I remember when I first got into this hobby, which wasn't that long ago, a king 8000 and two other king stones and a piece of glass (before the influx of cheap granite plates) was the stylish thing to do. I can also remember thinking that $135 for a LN block plane and that outlay for the kings was an almost unfathomable expense, a big outlay in my mind.

Things have really gotten out of control on the hobbyist side of things in the last 6 years, but I doubt they have changed much on the professional side. That should tell us something as gentlemen woodworkers.

The grass is always greener on the other side of the fence, especially if one sits and stares at the other grass and never waters their own.

[Richard Jones]

John,

Here's my $.02:

1. I flatten mine after every use. That way, they're flat (duh) and ready for next time. It only takes a little to maintain, a lot after they're really dished. I like the Norton 8000, but really don't like the others. The Norton 4000 and I have this really bad relationship, and I think the stone is just bad. I'd pick Shaptons or Choseras over Norton. But, they will certainly do the job.

2. Just wash everything off to avoid any grit contamination.

3. Guides are great for some applications, and again, just wash it off in between grits.

4. Flatten/lap/polish the back separately the first time you sharpen, then just touch up with the higher grits when you do the bevel.

I use the DMT XXC (about 120 grit) to flatten all my stones. If you use a diamond plate for flattening, just remember to not bear down so hard. Gentle works well here.

Hope this helps.

[paul cottingham]

I used to flatten with plate glass and grit. Worked great, and not very expensive http://www.leevalley.com/en/wood/page.aspx?p=33017&cat=1,43072 !

[Jessica Pierce-LaRose]

1. I flatten mine after every use. That way, they're flat (duh) and ready for next time. It only takes a little to maintain, a lot after they're really dished. I like the Norton 8000, but really don't like the others. The Norton 4000 and I have this really bad relationship, and I think the stone is just bad. I'd pick Shaptons or Choseras over Norton. But, they will certainly do the job.

I tried that for a while. but found with my stones, they moved a bit during the dry/soak cycle, and I got better results flattening after I got them wet, before I started sharpening. That may be because of my cheaper, thinner stones (naniwa superstones) - I can't comment on other stones. Certainly if it works for you, then it's good, and it sounds like Richard has experience with your stones. But if I were going to flatten before I put them away, I'd at least once or twice follow that with flattening them after setting up, paying attention to how they behave, to ensure that what was flat before was still flat after, before I trusted that. Again, as I said, this may not be a problem at all with your stones and maybe I'm being overly cautious. It was a problem with mine.

The other thing about flattening, that Dale alludes to, is it often helps clear out the stone if it's loaded, and exposes fresh abrasive. If I'm doing a lot of sharpening, I often hit my stone with a couple of swipes every now and then, particularly whatever the coarsest stone I'm using is, to keep the cutting action quick. I let things dry out a bit and the abrasive get a little worked down on my last stone, it seems to get me a little more polish at the end. Whether or not that means a better edge, I don't know, but it looks nice.

[John B Mooney]

Wow! Many thanks to all for an incredibly generous response. Much to think about, and much to practice (guess I'll have to pick a cheap chisel and a junk plane iron to practice working freehand). Now all I have to do is avoid drawing blood (again! :o)

Thanks again to all, and I'll report back when I actually get a decent edge on something.

- John

[Jim Neeley]

#1 +1 on what's been said. I flatten before sharpening and again during if doing something like flattening a back. To add my own experience in determining how often i need to do it I take a pencil and scribble on the surface before flattening and then only flatten until the scribble is gone.

By looking at the scribbles after a flattening stroke or two I can tell how fast it's going out of flat and, by how long it takes to re-flatten determine whether I'd waited too long. With time I've gotten a good feel for my specific stones and they vary, at least by grit. I don't have the quantity of stones to discuss variances between like stones, or even brands.

I use the above on my Shaptons; I upgraded from a set of Nortons because they seemed to cup like warm butter and I grew tired of fighting it. Others have great success; YMMV!

Jim

P.S. Free advice, and worth every dollar you paid! :):)

[Chris Griggs]

Don't get too hung up on learning freehand. Its definitely worth learning, I'm glad I learned to do it, and its my preferred way to hone - but there's nothing wrong with using a guide. There are some very accomplished woodworkers who use a guide. Learn to get a good edge using your guide on your nortons foremost. This will teach you what sharp and sharper is. Once you feel confident that you know what sharp is than you can start working on getting that result freehand. I'm certainly not trying to discourage from learning this skill. Its a fantastic skill to have, and I would recommend that every woodworker try to develop at some point. And if you are inclined, then by all mean s start working on it now - just don't feel like its a prerequisite of being a good woodworker. If your edge is sharp, the wood doesn't care whether or not you use a guide.

[Jim Koepke]

John,

Welcome to the wide world of sharpening opinions.

I wrote a long answer to this and clicked on the wrong thing and lost it all.

So to get to moving forward, the instructions you lost are on line if it is the Veritas MK II honing guide. It is in with the price information there are links to click for the information.

I seldom let my blades get dull enough to need more than a quick honing on a 4000 or 8000 stone.

A quick spritz of water between grits will help to prevent contamination.

jtk

[daniel lane]

John,

Welcome to the club! I used "scary sharp" and switched to waterstones about 4 months ago. I posted a 'coming out' (http://www.sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?180723) back in January that may or may not be of any help to you. As I've used the system I purchased, I find that by a stroke of luck follow Stu's advice here and flatten lightly but frequently. If I'm doing the back of something, I might even flatten during the process, otherwise I flatten between every 1-2 blades. [Before folks freak out, I'm flattening and sharpening a lot of blades for the first time since they came to me (used or new), so there is a lot of effort to re-establish a flat bevel and then add a secondary bevel.] Best of luck to you, and listen to these guys - they know what they are talking about!

Also:

...and at the time I looked it up, that one was $61.25 shipped on amazon.

It's already gone up in price! It's now $61.26. :rolleyes: [Maybe that's the "Prime" price...]


It is also why I love sharpening discussions! Let move to pins first or tails first, shall we? Another Duck season- wabbit season debate.

Less filling!



daniel

[Trevor Walsh]

I have the Norton combination stones too and really like them, pitching the "flattening" or crowning stone as I'd like to call it was the first step to better edges. I flatten after each use with loose 120 grit on thick glass, or granite. With the combination stones contamination is part of the process, slurry drips over the edge and sucks under the stone holder...I rinse my stones in a tub or under running water before switching and also wipe down the wheel of my honing guide if I'm using one. You learn not to, skewed plane blades are tricky to freehand and I'm not good at those yet. I use one stone holder for the coarse pair and one that I made for the fine pair. I'd like to make another for the coarse so I have something pretty to look at while I sharpen.

[John B Mooney]

Thanks again to all for the advice. I've been following a good deal of it, and it's producing results (not to mention providing some peace of mind).

I now have a follow-up question. I seem to be really good at carving small bits of skin off my fingertips (specifically, the tips of the first two fingers on my right hand, just below the edge of the nail on the side furthest away from my thumb). I guess it's a measure of sharpening success that I can do this without realizing I've done it, until the stone starts to get blood on it (we're talking about small amounts of blood here, not horror movie blood).

Does anyone else have this problem? I'm probably bearing down too hard on the chisel end with my fingertips, and I'll try to stop that, but I've also been considering the semi-disposable nitrile-coated thin cloth cloves that one can buy by the 10-pack at the borg. Does that sound like a good idea to you? Does anyone else have any good strategies for not shaving your fingertips off? (These cuts are small, but they're like paper cuts - they hurt all out of proportion to their size!)

Thanks in advance for any thoughts,

- John

[David Weaver]

It's unlikely that you're carving skin off. It's very likely that you're actually stoning it off. If you ever have a session of back flattening with an aggressive stone or a diamond hone, you may end up doing it, to. The cool water on the stone keeps you from feeling that you're wearing the skin off, and you don't figure it out until you've worn enough off to bleed.

Concentrate on keeping your fingers away from stone contact while you're sharpening (even just a little, you can still keep then close to the edge), at least on the 1k and below grit stones.

[Jim Koepke]

+1 on what David posted.

It is possible that you are pinching the blade against the stone with the edge of the blade to cause the cutting. The remedy is the same, move your fingers a little further up the blade.

When free handing my blades it helps to start slow to make sure my grip and angle are working together before going faster.

jtk

[Jessica Pierce-LaRose]

I didn't see any mention of what you're sharpening, but I've got a couple of chisels where the sides are acute enough to cut me, even if they don't cut wood. My narex mortise chisels, for instance, will cut my if I hold the back edges and slide vertically, and I've got one bevelled edge chisel that does the same down by the tip. I ended up slightly rounding the edge on the bevel edge chisel, and the mortise chisels I slightly dulled higher up where I'm apt to hold it - I like it being sharper down by the bottom, as it scrapes the sides of the mortise a bit when I rock the chisel in the mortise.

I doubt this is your issue, but I thought it worth mentioning.

[Wayne Jolly]

Just to add my experience with waterstones, I have recently acquired my first waterstones too. I started trying to use them and shortly found I was getting blood on my stones too. I took a look at what was happening and found that with flattening my stones and polishing the backs of chisels and plane irons, etc. that everything was getting sharp. The edges of the chisels and plane irons were getting almost as sharp as the cutting edges, but what was causing my blood-letting was just that the edges of the stones were also getting sharp. I just took my diamond stone and ran a couple of passes around the very edges of the stones to knock off the sharp edges and now my stones are blood-free.

Wayne