Figured wood tearout suggestions wanted.

[Dan Forman]

I am in the process of setting up a shop, would like to work with highly figured woods, but understand that they have a tendency toward tear out when jointing or planing.

I have been looking around the site, seen that some use Shelix cutter heads on jointers, haven't seen anyone using those on planers. The Shelix head ($$$) can be had for 15 inch planers, but not portables. The stationary planers tend to leave marks from the rollers that feed the stock if too light a pass is attempted. Some use drum sanders to remove those.

I have a reasonable but not unlimited budget for machines for milling stock, am looking for suggestions. How far is it necessary to go to deal with this issue? I would like to hear what you do when working with difficult materials such as fiddleback or quilted maple to minimize tear out.

Thanks in advance for your replies.

Dan

P.S. At present I am considering a Delta DJ20 jointer, Delta or Jet 15 inch planer or Dewalt 735 13 inch planer, with the possiblility of a Delta or Performax drum sander.

I thought about the Mini-Max FS30 12 inch jointer/planer, but I would assume that would be just as bad for tear out as anything else. It is also a bit steep in the cost department, and rather heavy to get down into the basement. The cost of the one sided disposable blades is not insignificant either.

[Martin Shupe]

Before you buy a Jet 15 inch planer, check out the Performax model. My friend bought one and after he showed me all the features on it, I wish I had one. I have a Delta (380, I think) which I like, but I like my friends Performax better.

My solution for figured woods is to plane to within 1/8" inch or so, then use a wide belt sander to sand down to final thickness.

[Andy London]

I would love to have a spiral cutterhead on my jointer and a planer with one however I receive very little tear out running my Delta planer on finishing speed. I have an 8" Delta jointer and tearout is an issue, you can work around this quite a bit but generally I stay away from jointing figured woods. I find the cut from my cabinet saw is such that using the jointer is not necessary. A power feeder makes a huge difference compared to performing the function by hand.

I do however have a performax and with some woods it's the only powertool in my shop that will work, I have some Curly Birdseye at the moment and it seems as soon as this stuff sees a planer it starts to tearout.....the effort though is worth it :rolleyes:

It's my intention to get a 10 or 12" jointer this year and I will either order it with a spiral cutterhead or have one installed.

You can also have planer blades sharpened in such a way to avoid most tearout, I used to give mine to the specialy hardwood store I buy some woods from when I had a 20" General and they would send them out with theirs to be sharpened. I do see tearout in their woods from time to time but it's rare and they process a few thousand feet a week.

Good Luck

Andy

[Alan Turner]

I have the Shelix, specially made, for my 12" jointer, and it is excellent on quilted and curly maple, zebrawood, bubinga, etc. I joint, plane to 1/16" oversize, and take two more passes on the jointer set at 1/32". The jointer is old iron, and quite strong and stable.

Also, my HNT Gordon is outsgtanding on figured woods, and I finish with that if possible. I can't say if it is better than a York pitch LN smoother, but it is good as an infill smoother that I tested it against one rainy Sunday afternoon in a sort of friendly competition. (It was less than the Shelix by quite a bit (: .) He said my iron was sharper, and that was perhpas true.

[John Miliunas]

Dan, I've got the Shelix on my DJ20. I simply can't say enough good about it. Heck, I've even run stock into it against the grain by mistake and it didn't make a difference! Does great with figured woods, as well (I've run BE Maple, some slightly figured Cherry and some real, REAL Curly Maple through it.). I often do like Alan; Face joint (Shelix), run through planer (non-Shelix head), stop before final thickness then back for a pass or two on the jointer. For the real deal in finished surface, though, it's on to the bench and a workout with the LN 4-1/2 w/York pitch. I do, however, also have the Delta drum sander and, depending on what the intent of the finished piece is, I will use it to guarantee against tearout, as well. Still need to hit the surface with a ROS afterward.:) :cool:

[Jim Becker]

II thought about the Mini-Max FS30 12 inch jointer/planer, but I would assume that would be just as bad for tear out as anything else. It is also a bit steep in the cost department, and rather heavy to get down into the basement. The cost of the one sided disposable blades is not insignificant either.

The Tersa kinves on the Mini Max J/P combos are two sided...you turn them over when one edge is worn. There are also four different metal formulas available so you can match the knife to the job if you choose to do so. That said, while the Tersa system is really good, it's not going to compare to a spiral head when it comes to highly figured stock, but with the added width, I find I can get a clean cut on most stock by running it through on an angle. (Doesn't work for really long stuff, obviously)

[lou sansone]

As others have said the spiral cutter heads are real nice. I have worked around this problem a number of ways.

1. jointing and planing with a skewing type of cut, only possible on real wide jointers and planers

2. Wide belt sanding is expensive to get into, but yields great results.

lou

[Mark Singer]

You could work with most of the stuff you have. If the pieces are not too big the Performax should work well. After drum sanding a smoothing plane, card scraper or fine sander like a Festool 150/3 will work well. I up graded my 16-32 Performax to the General 24" drum sander which is more powerful. That leaves a 120 grit finish...from that point fine sanding or hand planning is a nice way to finish and reveal the figure. The jointers and planners always seem to tear a little...I don't have the Shelix head...so drum sanding works for me.

[Dan Forman]

Thanks for all of your responses, still have a few questions though. I would like to have this figured out in the next couple of days in order to take advantage of the rebate offers which expire at the end of the month.

Looks like learning to use a hand plane will be helpful, will look into that regardless.

How deep can tear out be if it happens? In other words, how much surface would I need to remove with a hand plane or drum sander if a power planer should create some tear out?

If using a drum sander, what progression of grits and how many passes are required on average to clean up the tearout from power planing.

Any thoughts on planers, DeWalt 735 vs Delta 15 in vs Jet 15 inch?

How deep might the marks left from feeding rollers on a 15 inch planer be on the woods we have been considering if a very shallow pass is necessary to attain a given thickness?

Dan

[Donnie Raines]

A couple of other thought:

You can wet the surface of the boards prior to milling. This softens the fibers of thr wood and drasticly reduces tear out. Also, skew the board at an angle wen you feed it through the planer or jointer. The combonation of these two will help dramtticly.

That said, a drum sander is really idea. I used 80 grit for awhile then switch to 100 grit....which was perfect in my view. I then finished sanding by hand with ROS.

[lou sansone]

I can only speak for tiger maple. you can get 1/8" tear out in some real figured stock. I normally keep 120 grit on my wide belt. After the wide belt then random orbital it with 120 again and then progress in grades and scraper technology as you wish.

due to the size and style of my planer I really need to take at least .030 per pass, otherwise I still have marks from the infeed rollers. Some of the smaller delta planers actually have a urethane feed roll that lets you take much lighter passes.

[Andy London]

Looks like learning to use a hand plane will be helpful, will look into that regardless.

How deep can tear out be if it happens? In other words, how much surface would I need to remove with a hand plane or drum sander if a power planer should create some tear out?

If using a drum sander, what progression of grits and how many passes are required on average to clean up the tearout from power planing.

Any thoughts on planers, DeWalt 735 vs Delta 15 in vs Jet 15 inch?

How deep might the marks left from feeding rollers on a 15 inch planer be on the woods we have been considering if a very shallow pass is necessary to attain a given thickness?

Dan

I forgot to mention before, close to 60% of my work is with figured domestic and exotics....it's been an interesting ride with some woods.

Sometimes a scraper or hand plane is an excellent option, I do this as a business so...that is a slow option.

How deep can tearout be.....I have seen it 3/16"

Drum sander, I use 80 then 120 from there I use a ROS or palm sander, the finer grits in a surface sander, in most woods. loads up too fast.. I have used 36 then 60 to surface some 16" stock, worked like a charm, once again it's a time consuming process.

I use the Delta 22-580 on finishing speed, I have tried my Buddy's two speed Dewalt and it's good also. I had a 20" General and had blades sharpened (as mentioned) but it wore out a couple of years ago and it was far too big for the products I make, the Delta works great and I can't believe it's lasted this long.

The feed marks, really depend n the wood. With my General, I could barely see them in soft curly maple, anything harder than that, like birdseye, there were no marks at all.

[Dan Forman]

Thanks again.

I just got off the phone with Sam over at Mini-Max, who cleared up the double edged Tersa blade question, yes, they do have two edges (don't know why I thought they were only singles).

He also said that dampening the surface took care of most tear out, as Donnie suggested. That has me leaning toward the MM FS30 12 inch combo, as it would give me a 12 inch jointer, which would be nice.

Byrd tool is checking on a Shelix head for the MM, but I'm hoping it will not be necessary.

Haven't made a decision yet, but getting close.

Dan

[lou sansone]

dear all


I guess I could see dampening the surface of the wood prior to planing, but I have a uneasy feeling about sliding wet wood along the surface of my cast iron jointer. Am I just a big sissy?

lou

[Donnie Raines]

dear all


I guess I could see dampening the surface of the wood prior to planing, but I have a uneasy feeling about sliding wet wood along the surface of my cast iron jointer. Am I just a big sissy?

lou

I can understand the way you feel. For what it is worth, I never encountered any issues in doing this. Though I did wax my surfaces regualrly...

[Jim Becker]

I guess I could see dampening the surface of the wood prior to planing, but I have a uneasy feeling about sliding wet wood along the surface of my cast iron jointer. Am I just a big sissy?

Cast iron doesn't rust immediately...so as long as you take care of your surfaces properly and wipe them down right away when your task is complete, a little moisture from working the wood, including that added to help tame the grain, will not hurt your tools. It's those soft-drink cups that un-knowing folks leave behind that leave "ring around the jointer"... ;)

[Kelly C. Hanna]

Speaking of spiral cutters, I watched Steve Jenkins when he was jointing and planing my QBL Maple and Walnut the other day. He got them both done very nicely. When he jointed the boards, he skewed the fence on the flight deck (uh....jointer) and the boards went through at about a 15-20 degree angle. This was like having a spiral cutterhead. Very smart!

[Jim Becker]

When he jointed the boards, he skewed the fence on the flight deck (uh....jointer) and the boards went through at about a 15-20 degree angle. This was like having a spiral cutterhead.

I try to do this whenever possible, even when the wood isn't particularly figured. When you skew the workpiece, you are turning the cut into more of a shearing action which generally is cleaner.

[John Miliunas]

Ditto on the skewing (for the planer, anyway), but sometimes, depending on the width of the board, it can be real limiting. I've only got a 13" planer, but when I can, I do and it helps. By the same token, that's also why I've taken a very active interest in hand planes and the tuning thereof. Seems that no matter how much I try, I still end up with some machine marks and prefer the slicing action of the plane irons over the pore-filling action of the sanders. No choice sometimes, but those hand planes have a very real and legitimate spot even in the most advanced of power shops! IMHO, of course.:) :cool:

[Donnie Raines]

Ditto on the skewing (for the planer, anyway), but sometimes, depending on the width of the board, it can be real limiting. I've only got a 13" planer, but when I can, I do and it helps. By the same token, that's also why I've taken a very active interest in hand planes and the tuning thereof. Seems that no matter how much I try, I still end up with some machine marks and prefer the slicing action of the plane irons over the pore-filling action of the sanders. No choice sometimes, but those hand planes have a very real and legitimate spot even in the most advanced of power shops! IMHO, of course.:) :cool:

Ditto to the hand plane idea. If you can "learn" yourself in the way of the plane...life becomes a little more joyful(...in woodworking terms that is). While the tools in my shop limited right now, I still have some hand planes I use for smaller things. The angle of the grind on the iron is so crucial...it can make or break a succesful pass with a hand plane.

[Sam Blasco]

dear all


I guess I could see dampening the surface of the wood prior to planing, but I have a uneasy feeling about sliding wet wood along the surface of my cast iron jointer. Am I just a big sissy?

lou
I only wet the wood when planing. I face joint dry, on figured stock never more than 1/32". For final passes, wet and plane, then turn the board over, wet and plane the face jointed face, and plane it to the final dimension. I find hot water works the best. With the "Tersa" system the convenience of being able to switch to HSS knives for final passes on hardwoods or Carbide for silica laden woods, tearout just isn't much of an issue, for all but the most highly figured stuff, and that is the stuff I wet down. Another advantage I found with "Tersa" was my HSS and Carbide knives could last almost indefinitely since I only install them for final passes.

[Frank Bertrand]

There are many things I don't understand about our craft. This is one of them.

Figured woods demand more from the craftsman than just throwing money at the problem i.e. shelix head. Figured exotics cost more to buy and take more skill to work and that's how it should be! The beauty of these woods shouldn't come cheap. They should demand a higher skill level from the craftsman simply because of the higher return.

Almost everyone who has a shelix head raves about the performance. However, these users still admit that they have to plane , scrape and sand after milling anyway. So why spend $1000 on this unit when it doesn't significantly reduce the number of steps? I don't get it. A jointer or thicknesser is not for final finishing of stock in no way shape or form. I take at least a cabinet scraper to every piece of wood I mill. Most of the time i start with a smooth plane then scrape before sanding.

Figured wood demands time and effort and the results are more than worth it.

Another thing that I don't understand is why one would get the shelix head for the jointer and not the thicknesser. Since the jointer is simply to get a face and an edge wouldn't the shelix be much more useful in the planer?

mysteries of wood continue :)

[Donnie Raines]

IMHO, the advantage to the Shelix head not entirely centered around the quailty of cut, rather the advantage leans toward the level of maintaince required to the "blades". You never need to set knives again, if one is knicked you simply rotate the "blade" to a clean side. If you wear one out you simply throw it away and install a new one. No more setting of jointer knives. Also, these heads are very quiet when comapred to the standard blade set up. Granted, thats not a big benefit...it is a nice feature.

In saying all of that, I do not own a Shelix head..... :rolleyes:

I agree with you as well that figured woods require more attention then their flat sawn plain ole' counterparts.

[Dan Forman]

Frank---Point well taken. I have learned a lot in the short time I have been a member here. One of the things I learned is that I ought to invest in a good smoothing plane. I don't think anyone here is suggesting that a gorgeous piece of quilted maple should leap out a planer ready for a coat of varnish. But it seems worth looking into whatever can be done to limit the amount of time spent with the smoothing plane. It's not simply the number of steps, but the time spent in each step also figures into the equation, particularly if the piece is to be sold. It may be a sad state of affairs, but it seems to be the way it is.

Actually, I was looking into the Shelix head in both jointer and planer. One reason more don't do both is that the Shelix head is available only for stationary machines, whereas many have portable planers. The cost is $795 for a typical 15 inch head, $1195 and up for 20 inch, vs $449 for an 8" jointer. So the cost is easier to bear for the jointer. Without making a sled to enable face jointing in the planer, one would be limited to the size of board that can be face jointed on the jointer. So it often stops there. As John said, one can make the final pass on the jointer rather than planer, and clean up much of whatever tear out might be present.

At the moment, I am just trying to find out the best way to go as I set up my shop. There are many factors to consider, and I am trying to sort these out with the aim of only buying tools once, striking a balance between what I should have vs could have, always a difficult proposition for me anyway.

Thanks to all who have contributed to this thread.

Dan

[Frank Bertrand]

this is true Donnie, there are other benefits to a helical cutterhead. However, I still don't think the cost is justified. Tersa knives can be changed and/or adjusted in minutes and as far as noise goes....., well woodworking is one heck of a noisy business and ear protection should always be used anyway.




IMHO, the advantage to the Shelix head not entirely centered around the quailty of cut, rather the advantage leans toward the level of maintaince required to the "blades". You never need to set knives again, if one is knicked you simply rotate the "blade" to a clean side. If you wear one out you simply throw it away and install a new one. No more setting of jointer knives. Also, these heads are very quiet when comapred to the standard blade set up. Granted, thats not a big benefit...it is a nice feature.

In saying all of that, I do not own a Shelix head..... :rolleyes:

I agree with you as well that figured woods require more attention then their flat sawn plain ole' counterparts.

[Frank Bertrand]

Dan, you're definitely doing the right thing by weighing all your options now. I'm a firm believer in buying the best you can afford the first time and eliminate as best as possible the endless upgrade cycle.

You're also correct in saying that cutting down on the time required is a good thing. I think you'll find once you get proficient with a smoothing plane and a cabinet scraper that they will afford you a greater consistency of result and a much more rewarding experience. Some of your customers will notice it too (not all of them that's for sure).

I highly recommend going with a stationary induction motor planer. Some of the portable models do a good job but I would question their longevity, and they take forever to mill lots of wood. Going with your 'time is money' point, you will recoup the extra cost of a stationary planer in no time. I see you've been looking at the Minimax combo jointer/planers, imo this is definitely the way to go although while a 12" jointer is great, a 12" planer is undersized. If you can swing it, move up to the 16" combo.

good luck and enjoy the process :)

[lou sansone]

I think if money was really no object that I would probably have shelix type of cutter heads. They do seem like a good idea, although changing all of those little inserts would seem to take longer than setting the knives in my jointer or planer. Unfortunatly, the shelix head for my planer is about $5000.00 plus tax. It does seem to me that I could spend a long time changing blades before I recouped the cost.

lou

[Scott Coffelt]

One of the exotic lumber suppliers around here uses a spray bottle and hits the planned edge with a coat of water. Then runs through the planer, he says it softens the fibers and also reduces chip out.

I've not tried it yet, but he is int he business and swears by it.

[Dan Forman]

Frank---16 inch combo...OUCH in the wallet dept!

Looks like it's between the 12" MM combo vs 8" jointer 15" planer with shelix heads. Cost would be about the same after Shelix conversion. Combo saves space, but gives up 15 inches on the jointer table length (60" and 75" respectively) for a 4" gain in jointer width.

With seperates, give up 4" jointer width, gain 3" on planer width, possibility of jointing up to 15" using a sled in the planer. Don't have to get the wood wet to joint or plane.

Arghhh, decisions.

Dan

[Frank Bertrand]

ya sorry, forgot MM had a 14" combo before the 16"

In that case I would go for separates. You'll appreciate a 15" planer. It sounds like you are sold on the shelix, go for it!

Just to completely screw you up even more, have you looked at the Oliver jointers? They have a very useful 10" jointer with an 84" bed and a wide variety of planers as well. Also they can order and install the shelix head for you before they ship it out to you. much better than trying to do it yourself. Check them out at www.sunhillmachinery.com (http://www.sunhillmachinery.com/)

[Dan Forman]

Saw the Oliver before, with the Shelix runs arond $3000 if I remember correctly, another ouch. It is a big beautiful beast though.

Dan