Sharpening a Nest of Saws

[Bill Haumann]

I've put together a nest of saws for "normal" hardwoods (cherry, walnut, soft maple) with occasional use on softer/harder woods.
I'm ready to sharpen them, and was wondering whether the rake and fleam should remain the same throughout, or whether it should vary.
Here's what I'll be sharpening:

Rip: 3 1/2, 5 1/2, 7 ppi
Crosscut: 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12 ppi

(backsaws not for sharpening immediately, but: 16 inch, 14 inch, 12 inch, 12 inch, 10 inch, 9 inch)

I was at first thinking to use the same rake and fleam for all, or to set the odd ppi more aggressive than the even . . .

What do you think?

[Jeff Heath]

I hear a lot of chatter about "hybrid" sharpening, and it always makes me smile a bit.

I sharpen all my saws with tradition fleam and rake angles. I work with the woods you describe almost daily (North American Hardwoods). I sharpen my rip saws with 8° of rake, and my crosscut saws with 12° of rake and 20° of fleam (hope I said that right.......I know what I mean). They all start well and cut well.

I have no experience at all with any of the hybrid sharpening going on these days, so I cannot help you there. I'll doubt you'll find that it will work any better for you. Sharp is sharp, and these angles have been used for 200 years.

Jeff

[Jessica Pierce-LaRose]

I added a little bit of fleam to my 7 PPI rip saw; it's nice, because I use it for ripping and crosscutting.

I use it for noth ripping and crosscutting because I only really have two larger (read not-back-saw) western saws in working condition right now. The aforementioned 7 point "mutt" (a Disston 7 handle with a blade from a "Warranted Superior" No 8-style) and an 11 point Disston 12.

Having found myself using the 7 point for pretty much everything that the 11 point didn't handle, a little fleam made the crosscuts nicer. It was easier to add a little fleam than get myself around to getting the other two saws I have hanging around in working shape.

But if you've got a nice till of saws, it would make sense to have them dedicated to standard use.

Jeff's angles are good, and pretty much traditional. I originally sharpened my crosscut saws with 15° of rake, but like a little more aggressive (like the 12° he mentions) better. I don't shoot for exact numbers, just generally consistent across the saw. I liked a fairly aggressive 0° on my rip saw, but relaxed that a bit when making it a multi-purpose tool. It can be a little hard to start a 0° rake cleanly on a crosscut - I can do it pretty well, but it's a hassle. That 0° rake can be a little bit of a hassle on some woods. You may want to try a steeper rake on your finer toothed rip saws, and a little less on your larger ones.

The one thing I would do, if I had that many saws ready to go right now, is maybe dedicate a couple to working softwood. I keep the set fairly tight on my saws - it makes the cut seem a little less effort, and I get a better finish. I certainly can keep a straighter line with those; if I start it going the right way, it pretty much stays through the cut. But those saws can pinch up in softwoods, even on the crosscut, sometimes. So having some with a little more set for softwood might be nice, and you could probably go with more aggressive rake on those as they're probably less annoying to push.

The most important thing at the end of the day, though, is to worry about *sharp* more than any angle. In my experience, a well sharpened saw, even with somewhat out of shape teeth and weird angles is almost always still going to cut better than a dull saw with perfectly formed and angled teeth.

The other big thing, is that once you have the plates clean and the teeth well jointed and everything sharpened, it doesn't take that long to tweak the angles next time you file them. Get them sharp, using some standard angles, and use them all for a while. Once you've got some cuts under your belt with your nest of saws, you'll have an idea of how they work for you, and how each saw fits into your workflow, how they feel to you, and what's missing in your till. Then you can worry about whether one saw needs more or less of something.

[David Weaver]

I've put together a nest of saws for "normal" hardwoods (cherry, walnut, soft maple) with occasional use on softer/harder woods.
I'm ready to sharpen them, and was wondering whether the rake and fleam should remain the same throughout, or whether it should vary.
Here's what I'll be sharpening:

Rip: 3 1/2, 5 1/2, 7 ppi
Crosscut: 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12 ppi

(backsaws not for sharpening immediately, but: 16 inch, 14 inch, 12 inch, 12 inch, 10 inch, 9 inch)

I was at first thinking to use the same rake and fleam for all, or to set the odd ppi more aggressive than the even . . .

What do you think?

file the crosscut saws crosscut, angles similar to what Jeff said for rake and fleam.

And file the rip saws rip, you don't need fleam on them if you've got crosscut saws. I do almost exactly what jeff says, except my rake leans more toward 4-5 degrees on the rip saws, and 15 for the crosscut. That's not much different, though.

[Mike Allen1010]

Bill,

Congratulations it sounds like you've put together a great nest of saws that will allow you to have the ideal tool for anything you want to do.

I agree with Josh and David, You have the luxury of setting up these saws as dedicated rippers and cross cutters -- no need to go with a "hybrid" set up combining elements of both rip and crosscut styles. You also can't go wrong with Josh and David's advice about Rake and Fleam angles.

A couple suggestions for you to consider based on what works best for me:

For your 3 1/2 ppi rip, given the coarseness of the pitch I wouldn't go with anything less than 8° of rake. You might even want to consider putting 10° of rake on the first 10 inches of teeth at the toe -- this just reduces the risk that you catch a tooth and potentially kink the saw with an errant stroke.

For the rest of the rip saws I would go with 5° of rake; maybe a little bit more difficult to get started than a larger rake angle but will provide a meaningful advantage in terms of speed. I also add 5° of fleam on all my rip saws, I think it helps starting the kerf, even when only using them as dedicated rippers.

I like 12° rake for all crosscut saws -- provides a good combination of speed and smoothness. The only exception would be really course 5 ppi crosscut saws where 15° of rake provides some needed smoothness given the courses of the pitch.

I like 25° of fleam on crosscut saws with less than 10 ppi. 20° is more typical, but the 25° adds additional speed and accuracy -- the only downside is that The teeth will dull more quickly, particularly in Abrasive/tropical woods. For crosscut teeth smaller than 10 ppi I would stay with 20° of fleam - for me these teeth are so small that there is not really enough mental on the cutting-edge of the tooth to work with to accurately add more fleam.

Although you didn't mention it in your IP, a critical element set up to consider is the amount of set -- to me one of the most important drivers of overall effectiveness. For full-size saws I like .090"-.010" of set. For the course rippers (3.5 - 5 PPI), I would consider .011" -.012", especially if you plan to use them in thicker softwoods.

For the backsaws plate thickness becomes an issue when determining ideal set, in general I use From .006"-.008" for the larger/coarser pitch backsaws down to .003" - .005" for dovetail saws.

Good luck with your saw set up! I'm sure you will find the time and effort invested in will pay huge dividends in your work!

All the best, Mike

[Jim Koepke]

I have one saw sharpened rip at 4 ppi. It cuts faster, but also wears me out faster. With my 6 ppi rip saw, I can cut without having to stop to rest as much as with the 4 ppi.

Both of these rip saws have 5º of rake. When the 4 ppi is sharpened again it may get more like 8 or 9º of rake to make it a touch easier to push.

All of this comes down to personal feel. All of my rip saws used to be at 8º. Now with the finer teeth I have been changing to 5º. Once one gets used to starting a saw, the more aggressive rake is easy to start.

jtk