new wodden plane finished, user problems

[Matthew N. Masail]

So in the end I went with a regular wedge as recomended, after I glued the body together it was obvious there wan't much room. I finished it up - the sole it flat while under tention and the wedge/blade/ cross pin are in good contact, no pivoting as far as I can see, but I'm having a few diapointing problems.

1. I can't get it to take a thin shaving
2. when iplaning hardwood it scaters leaving rised lines in the surface, seem to be OK with pine, but still not great.

I'm using a single Iron made by ECE, only about 2.2mm thick... at 45 degrees. could these problems due to lack of support at the cutting edge?
it seems to be ok for this plane, which is why I thought it would be ok,
http://www.leevalley.com/US/wood/page.aspx?p=46935&cat=1,41182

help... :(

[george wilson]

That is a very very thin blade. If the incline the iron rests on is not very flat,or if the wedge does not put pressure on the blade all along it,the plane will chatter. Take a candle and blacken the side of the blade that bears against the plane's incline. Tap the wedge in snugly and then loosen it and remove the blade. You may find that the blade is bearing against the incline only in a few spots. These spots must be chiseled away,and the blade re blackened and re tested until it bears against the incline in most spots. Also test the fit of the wedge. You can rub chalk onto the wedge where it bears against the body of the plane. Assemble the plane,then remove the blade and wedge. Look at the plane to see where the chalk marks were left on it. Chisel away those chalk marks and repeat until the chalk marks are all the way down both sides of the plane's body.

Thin irons can be made to work. Blades were thin in the 18th.C.. The planes we made in Williamsburg had to be carefully fitted since the blacksmith's shop would only make them thin. Too thin in my opinion. But,careful fitting made the planes work without chattering.

[Matthew N. Masail]

Thank you. I'm going to try it now.... how close does the wedge end need to be to the cutting edge? mine is a good inch away .

[David Weaver]

George, I recall someone telling me that Peter Ross suspected that thick irons appeared later on due to a decrease in skill in the users of planes. I thought that was an interesting comment, because thicker irons, at least in the 3/16th range appear in some of my planes that are from the early 1800s.

If an iron is laminated, I have no idea why someone these days would want a thin iron if given the choice.

[george wilson]

Thick irons appeared because steel became easier to produce,in my opinion. I really have no idea what Peter knows about woodworking since he is a blacksmith only.

[David Weaver]

Matthew, regarding the question about how far away from the edge of the iron, with a thicker iron, you could get away with being an inch from the edge. You'll need to come across a thicker iron to get away with being an inch from the edge, especially in harder woods and a heavy cut. The ECE iron generally is in a plane that's got support almost all the way up to the edge.

[Matthew N. Masail]

oy.... I thought that it should but all the pics I've seen seem to have to wedge end not too far after the pin.... I cut the cross pin off and I'm gluing in some "trditional" ears.. It's a good thing I made a test plane. if I end up likeing the wedge system I'll probebly go at it the Steve Knight way. having never copped a mortice before I think it's beyond me to make a single block. about the Iron, I didn't know it was so thin when I ordered it, I have some thicker ones I just thought I'd start with this one because it's narrow and I can use scrap pieces.,

[george wilson]

You used a cross pin? I doubt that glued in traditional "ears" will hold. They need to be cut from the solid wood.

[Matthew N. Masail]

your right (big surprize there (-;) they didn't. they held only thanks to nails... it was enough for me to see that the plane worked 10000 times better than before.... I had used a cross pin because all recomendations said it's fine, but I now sawed the plane apart and I'm going to (I think) rebuild it with ears cut into the cheeks. can you please recommend a wedge angle? I tried 10 degress with the cross pin, seemed to hold fine. with the ears I tried 12, the plane adjusted easiar but the wedge also came lose while adjusting.

I still couldn't get the plane to take a thin shaving... what could be causing this? i'd like to know before I start rebuilding it.

[David Weaver]

Things that could cause no thin shaving:
* sharpness
* flatness of the sole
* stability of the iron
* wood that you're using (some dry dusty wood just doesn't like to facilitate nice looking thin shavings, though anything you plane should be able to give you a shaving down to .001 or so, but not everything will go much thinner than that and produce a nice shaving that holds together.

If you can orient the iron in the direction it cuts and easily remove hairs from your arm (i.e., they come off without having to apply pressure to your arm) all along the edge of the iron, it shouldn't be sharpness.

[george wilson]

There is no reason a cross pin wouldn't work. I have made a few planes like that myself. Something else was wrong with your plane. Actually,just about all infill planes are made with a variation of the cross pin,in the form of the brass caps. They work the same way,just are more mechanical. The old type of all metal miter planes had a cross bar of flat metal,with a wedge running beneath it. They all worked fine.

The Romans used cross pin planes for many ,many years. The Krenov planes are cross pin planes.

[Jim Matthews]

How much opening is exposed at the mouth?

Each part contributes to the effectiveness of the other.
I suspect the wedge isn't far enough down the throat to keep the blade steady, as well.

[Matthew N. Masail]

I've started building a new one, but this is what I think went wrong with the other one:

1. the blade wasn't supported well enough near the cutting edge. can a cross pi apply enough pressure, 1 1/2 inches away from it's contact point, to hold a thin blade steady?
George, I did the test you told me to, and there was bearly any contact between the iron and the bed, even though I flattened a smothed the bed carfully with a low angle block plane... is it always a fidelly thing?

2. because I used a 75 degree angle towards the bed, and made it too long, I couldn't get the wedge low enough without blocking the opening.

sole was flat, blade was sharp. wood (beech and pine) planed beautifully with a woddriver no.3 , Is it possible that the blade deflected if it didn't have enough wood the bit into?

[David Flynn]

I have made three Krenov style planes and they work well. The irons are all held tightly with a cross pin and wedge. Two of them use Hock irons with a 'chip-breaker', and one uses a Lee Valley blade they say is designed for wooden planes (the ones that are 3/16" thick.) I suggest buying David Finck's book, and also look at his article from Fine Woodworking. As I remember it he has you make a 'test wedge' that I then planed down with a block plane. I found it very easy to get a tight fitting wedge this way.

I do have an issue with the planes I built - the bottoms go out of flat which impacts performance. When this happens I can't get a consistent thin shaving. I flatten the bottom with a few swipes on sandpaper stuck on glass and they work great again. When you flatten the bottom David Finck suggests you don't rub back and forth.

P.S. my wedges are oak, I read somewhere that Japanese plane makers prefer oak wedges.

[Matthew N. Masail]

Thanks David, I have David Finck's book. I suspect part of the problem in the thin, kinda flexible, blade.

[Sam Takeuchi]

Japanese planes don't use wedges. Closest they have is a thin steel with bent corners that are called by various terms like "chip breaker", double iron, wedge and so on. In Japanese, it's called osaegane (or uragane), I suppose closest word in English is "wedge", but it is intended for chip breaking purposes (whether it really functions as such or effective is for another discussion).

[David Weaver]

(whether it really functions as such or effective is for another discussion).

It ejects the chips nicely even if it's not properly set to break chips.

They definitely break chips if you can set them close enough to the edge, but that's a tall order to do them quite as easily as you can set a double iron on a common bench plane.

[David Weaver]

I read somewhere that Japanese plane makers prefer oak wedges.

It might be that they prefer japanese white oak for a dai, because, well, it's a really nice wood for planes. It's stable, reasonably hard, it's not chippy and it works nicely with hand tools.

[george wilson]

I suggest you make your blade at 45º. Tens of thousands of planes have been made with cross pins. Your blade MUST lay flat on the incline if you want it to work.

[Chris Vandiver]

Thanks David, I have David Finck's book. I suspect part of the problem in the thin, kinda flexible, blade.


Build your plane exactly as David Finck's book describes and then you'll be reasonably assured to end up with a good plane. The more you interject methods and/or details from other types of plane construction, the less sure you can be as to whether it will work. Pretty simple, really.

[Matthew N. Masail]

I know it's simple, and I followed the book except for the swiviling dowel. as said here before a thin blade needs supprt close to the cutting edge, when I got pressure there it worked much better. + my ramp wasn't so good, even though I planed it flat, not sure what happned there but I have to pay extra attention to that.

[Matthew N. Masail]

I just checked the blade and it is slightly bent... and not flat against a stright edge, could that be why it didn't fit against the ramp which I am 99% sure was flat?

[Jack Curtis]

...I read somewhere that Japanese plane makers prefer oak wedges.

Japanese planes don't have wooden wedges. Some times they'll have metal blades, of sorts, that work like a combination wedge/sub blade. Typically if you see one with a wooden "wedge," it's because the metal has been lost.

[Matt Lau]

I just checked the blade and it is slightly bent... and not flat against a stright edge, could that be why it didn't fit against the ramp which I am 99% sure was flat?

Matthew,

You really should get a bigger, beefier blade.
It makes a significant difference, and is a major reason why Krenov planes, Japanese planes, and Infill planes tend to leave a nicer surface than most Stanleys (IMHO).

Also, any advice that you get from George is pure gold.

[Matthew N. Masail]

Thanks Matt, I know George is a living legend. I plan to buy thicker blades from Toolsfromjapan . com, just waiting for them to come in. in the meawhile I'm trying to figure out how I like my planes... and how to make them, the problem is I have nothing good to compare it too, and about a month of hand tool skills under my belt.... lol. the plane came out looking nice... but that's about it. below a picture of the now dead trooper. I'm working on #2... not sure exactly how to make it, or how I want it.