Continental style spindle gouge - any users with thoughts?

[John Keeton]

I am working on a larger, endgrain piece, and shaping it with a bowl gouge doesn't seem to be giving me as good a surface as my 1/2" spindle gouge - because of the grain and direction of cut necessary in parts of the piece, I am sure. Got me thinking about the gouge that Rude Osolnik used, which I understand from Jamie Donaldson is referred to as a Continental style gouge. Seems it would be nice for long sweeping curves on endgrain vase style pieces. Any users? Any thoughts? Sources?

[Mike Peace]

I have two that came with my red handled HF set and never have gotten much use out of them. They do seem at their best when doing long sweeping curves. I have not done any long end grain vases but have used them when shaping tool handles and they seem to work well on those. Better than a regular spindle gouge or a SRG, I thought. But I don't make that many tool handles so they don't get much use at all.

[Jim Burr]

I found this http://www.intertoolsonline.co.uk/prod.php?prod=2074 with a quick search...maybe it will get you started.

[John Keeton]

Jim, I saw that listing when I was cruising around about this topic. The Sorby seems to be the only company producing this creature. They are available, at The Best Things, but I just hate the thought of paying $85, plus shipping, for an M2 HSS gouge. I realize, though, that the 1 3/8" width makes it more expensive. If I get some good comments from users, perhaps that might be a purchase!

Mike, I don't think the HF 3/4" spindle gouge is the same profile. I have that tool, as well, but the Continental gouge seems to be more shallow in the flute. I would also want a wider tool than 3/4". Thanks, though.

[Thom Sturgill]

John, they are also refered to as 'German' spindle gouges, though 'continental' as opposed to 'english' is probably truer from my searches. Packard also makes and sells some
229513 (http://www.packardwoodworks.com/Merchant2/merchant.mvc?Screen=CTGY&Store_Code=packard&Category_Code=tools-pkrd-gsg)

I have the two from the HF set and use them for spindle work where I need large curves. since they are forged (with a tang) I don't think i would want to use them for faceplate work.

[Charles Bjorgen]

I've had a Henry Taylor 1/2" Continental Gouge for roughly 10 years. My understanding is that it qualified as among the "forged" gouges. It was sold at the time by The Cutting Edge, but they are apparently not in the turning tool business any longer. I probably asked that same question on this forum that many years ago and went ahead and bought one. I use mine a lot and frankly think it suits me well for outside shapes on smaller hollow forms or for boxes. I also use it as a smaller roughing gouge. In fact, I might tend to grab this tool for just about everything. I tried sharpening this with long wings ala my spindle gouges but reverted back to just a 45 degree angle and fingernail profile. I think we all tend to find comfort levels with certain tools and this one fits mine.

[Bill Wyko]

I have a Glaser one. I haven't used it much but when I have, it really works well. I know you're not a big Glaser fan but who knows, you might like it.

[Nick Stagg]

John - I have a couple of these and use them a lot for the reason that you need one, and for spindle turning. They are especially beneficial for long sweeping shapes on balusters and newel posts etc. They don't do well on cross grain wood, however.

As others have stated, some cheaper gouges resemble them, but the steel is too thick and they don't perform well. I grind the bevel to 35 degrees or a tad less and they produce shavings much like a skew. Any more obtuse, and you'll find yourself exerting too much downward pressure to achieve a cut which will leave you with a poor finish, and in the case of thinner work, ribbing

[Alan Trout]

John,

George Hatfield a well know Australian spindle turner uses one extensively. He is probably the best production spindle turner I have ever seen do a demonstration. He can use it as a skew a gouge you name it is a fabulous tool in the hands of a master.

Alan

[Jim Burr]

It may be worth your while to have a chat with Doug Thompson and see what he can grind for you...lot better than M2 steel!

[Reed Gray]

I have a big one, and a small one, and use them mostly for high shear angle finish cuts on bowls and some on spindles, though I don't do many spindles. I tried the Eli Avesera convex grind on a skew and found that to work well, and also, the larger fluteless gouge from Doug Thompson will do the same cuts. I have thought about taking a detail gouge and grinding the nose to a ) profile for doing the same cuts. It should work. Having the wider profile, ) instead of C shape really helps for the shear angle and more cutting surface/sweet spot, especially when doing longer sweeping cuts. If there is a concave surface, relieving the bevel like we do on bowl gouges helps. A good tool, and I am surprised that there are not more of them made. Maybe we should all talk to Doug about making another tool. 1 inch wide would be a good size.

robo hippy

[Charles Bjorgen]

Doug Thompson has what he calls a Shallow Detail Gouge with a flute depth of only 20 percent of the shaft diameter. I've wondered if this approximates a Continental?
http://www.thompsonlathetools.com/tooltype.asp?TYPE=SD

[John Keeton]

Reed, I may shoot Doug an email. While most of the ones I see referenced were forged, so long as the wall thickness is uniform, and the flute profile is correct, milled should work fine. And, I do like the idea of having V10 steel.

Bill, I did check the Glaser site, and they just list "spindle" gouges, and from the pics, it appears they do not have a consistent wall thickness. That would be expected in a regular spindle gouge, but the Continental is a bit different animal, I think. Although, the 1" Glaser does look like a very nice tool.

[Richard Allen]

I have and use a variety of these tools from Sorby and from Henry Taylor. They are terrific tools which give a fantastic finished surface. The bevel I have on mine are long which helps the finish but also makes the tools very grabby. I find I need to concentrate when I use these tools. The pay off is a very clean cut but I can only keep up that level of concentration for a few minutes at a time. I also find that level of concentration to be exhausting. 15 minutes with these tools is like half an hour of more with a bowl gouge. The more I use the tools the easier it is to use the tools. If I take a week off from these tools it takes a while to get comfortable with them again.

229527229528 That is 1 1/4"(32mm), 3/4"(19mm), 1/2"(15mm), 5/16"(8mm)

[John Keeton]

Richard, the ones I have seen have a fingernail grind to them, but yours appear to be ground flat on the face - am I seeing that correctly? Just wonder if that affects the "handling" ease of the tool?

[Bob Hamilton]

Lee Valley carries the Henry Taylor forged gouges: http://www.leevalley.com/en/wood/page.aspx?p=43177&cat=1,330,49233,43164,43175

Bob

[Dale Miner]

John,

I have two of them. One came in a set from Harbor Freight (1"), and one is a Henry Taylor (3/4"). They are the cats meow for larger diameter spindle grain orientation work. I have a thumbnail grind on both of them (not enough to be called a fingernail). They are perfect for large and medium convex and concave curves. They can be used handle down roughing gouge fashion to rapidly remove stock, and as Reed mentioned, handle near horizontal with a bevel contact high shear to get an almost skew like cut with very little chance of a run back.

I actually use the Harbor Freight more often than the Henry Taylor due to the larger size. It needs sharpening fairly often, but for larger spindle work and spindle oriented forms, it is my go to gouge.

Try one. After you use it enough to get comfortable with it, I'm betting you will leave the bowl gouge in the tool rack for spindle orientation work.

[Richard Allen]

Yes they are primarily straight across. The corners come in very handy for some cuts. This is especially true when you want to make the cut close to a feature like cutting up to a bead. I have never had an issue with these corners getting unexpectedly caught while turning. The grabbiness come from the tool coming off the bevel. If I pay close attention to the bevel they work great. If I just go for it with these tools I can quickly lose the bevel and the tools starts to skate. The dark handle tools (Henry Taylor) are much much thicker than the Sorby tools. 8.5 mm, 6.5 mm, 3.5 mm, 3.5 mm. The effect of the different thickness is primarily stability. The big tool can hog off wood like a roughing gouge. The smaller tools are more delicate. But these don't feel like detail tools. They feel like purposeful instruments of wood removal.

[Mark Levitski]

John, I have a 1 1/4" German spindle gouge from Packard(Hamlet). I bought it to rough out large spindles/endgrain work. I have no "roughing gouge". I am not into small spindle work, and I don't do finials on my HF's. This gouge works very well for me. The shallow flattened C flute requires keeping the cutting portion over the fulcrum of the toolrest or it will turn and catch on you. Flat on the rest is no problem of course. But to do a more shear angle with the flute facing 1 to 2 or 10 to 11 o'clock, it takes some control and finesse. The smaller diameters probably are more forgiving with this. I can use this gouge to make smooth, general cuts to shape endgrain pieces. Since I got my smaller normal spindle gouges, I usually use these for that. There is, however, really little difference. This big gouge is hefty and I never worry about the tang giving way.

This gouge works better than my bowl gouges for this purpose, for sure.

P.S.-- My German spindle gouge has a somewhat swept-back grind and looks just like the photo Thom supplied.

[John Keeton]

Mark, that is exactly the input I was looking for! It just seemed that there must be a better option than a bowl gouge for forming endgrain pieces between centers. Thanks!

[Ryan Baker]

I have one and I like it. I find it is really good for long, sweeping curves on between-center work. Mine is pretty much ground straight across, and the bevel is about 45 degrees I would guess. I'd like to pick up a larger, better one than what I have, but I haven't gotten around to it since I really don't use it that often.

[John Keeton]

I appreciate all the input. This morning, I ordered a Hamlet 1.25" German spindle gouge from Packard, along with a few more smaller items I couldn't resist! Also, reground the spindle gouge from the HF set to more of a thumbnail grind (thanks, Dale!) and will give it a try soon. I started with a 45* bevel, and will go from there when I start playing with them.

Interestingly, I watched a YouTube video of a fellow turning a huge porch post and he was using a similar gouge for nearly all the cove and bead work, along with making beads with a parting tool - pretty slick!

[John Keeton]

For those that may have followed this thread, I did email Doug Thompson about the possibility of making this gouge. He replied that the continental gouge is forged from flat stock, so it would be very difficult to make one from the 10V steel. The cost, if it could be done at all would be sky high, where Sorby/HT etc can manufacture M2 cheap.

[Jamie Donaldson]

John, don't succumb to the "1 tool away from greatness" lure of tool collecting! I don't believe that a continental style gouge would offer any advantage over the tools that you already own and use. I gave away the one that came with my original Greenlee carbon tool set and have never missed it, so for sake of new tool entertainment I can loan you Rude's original design "spindle skew" that will offer a similar learning experience, white knuckles and all!

[Reed Gray]

A 1 inch wide, by 3/8 thick bar stock, with the bottom corners rounded over to about a 1/4 inch radius, and the nose in a ) profile will do the same cuts, essentially a fluteless gouge. Every time I demo with the fluteless gouge, or have a mentoring session where I let people play with them, a couple of them are ordered. Good tool, but most just don't know about them.

The spindle skew shown above is the same thing, though the bottom side edges are not rounded over.

robo hippy

[John Keeton]

Jamie, I have never felt there was "one tool" that would solve all issues, but it seems the wider spindle gouge has its place in doing sweeping curves on endgrain work. I will report back when I get a chance to try the Hamlet I have already purchased. That said, bring that tool to the next meeting and I will play with it at the same time for comparison! What you have appears to be considerably more shallow than the Hamlet, but I do not have either in hand, so it is difficult to say.

[Hayes Rutherford]

John, have you tried a cheap 1" Benjamins Best spindle roughing gouge? (Ground straight across as already mentioned and angled in the direction of cut.) There may be tools that will hold an edge longer but nothing out there will be a significant improvement in the cut.

[John Keeton]

Hayes, I am also pondering another roughing gouge - I am still using the HF roughing gouge, which I think is 1". It actually does a fairly good job, but if the piece is 6-7" in diameter or larger, it can be fairly rough going. I had looked at the BB 2" - just for the mass. Thanks for the suggestion!

[Dan Forman]

I have both a 1/2" continental gouge from Henry Taylor, and a Fluteless gouge from Doug Thompson. I find my results are inconsistent with both, I'm sure it's not the tools fault. :) Sometimes they work wonderfully, others they are hard to control. I would no doubt benefit from some live tutoring. I should say that most of my experience is using them for bowls, not for between center turnings. For your intended purpose, I think you will like the continental gouge.

Dan

[Terry Gerros]

John,

Go to the Sorby website, UK site that is. They have the Continental spindle gouge from 8mm to 35mm. I use the 30mm gouge and it is one of my go to tools. Just bought the 9/16" forged gouge from Craft Supply (rex & kip) which I am expecting to also be shaped like the continental gouge.

Terry

[John Keeton]

Thanks, Terry! Good hearing from you. I ended up purchasing the Hamlet 1.25" from Packard and when I get a chance I will post an informal review of my experience on the next endgrain piece. The Sorby looked nice, as well, and they are available in the states, of course - but, cost just a little more. If I end up liking this one, I may end up with a smaller one, too.

[Reed Gray]

Well after getting upset with a piece of cottenwood (NEVERMORE!!!!), in order to relax a bit, I tool a small Thompson fluteless gouge and ground it to a detail/spindle gouge profile like a tool that Allen Batty had. Wonderful for turning beads and coves.

robo hippy

[Terry Gerros]

Hey John,

OK well the Craft Supply order came in today and I will admit it, I bought 3 new spindle gouges....included were the Rex/Kip 9/16" forged gouge, Henry Taylor Spindle Pro (1/2"), and Henry Taylor 9/16" M2 gouge. Have to say, I like all three. The Rex/Kip gouge is thicker than I expected but cut quite nicely. I bought the Spindle Pro because I thought it would be much like the fluteless gouge, and it is except that it has a flat bottom with rolled sides, this is going to be one nice tool. I got the 9/16" for back hollowing, aka Richard Raffan. Although I've only had them in my hands for a couple hours, I believe the Rex/Kip gouge is going to become a favorite. Don't really have any particulars other than the handle fits nicely and heavier due to thicker cross section, probably more stable tool.

[Jamie Donaldson]

Reed- this post is useless without a photo!:rolleyes:

[Vince Welch]

HI John,
Congrads on your new tools coming to you! I know years ago Glaser had a Continental Spindle gouge and somehow I ended up with one before the symposium was over. Nice tool! When our pathes cross again just remind me in advance and I will bring the tool for you to work with if you care to try it.

Vince

[John Keeton]

Thanks, Vince - will do!! Perhaps you can visit with the club again sometime this year. And, Terry, congrats on the haul! Sounds like you got a nice selection. I received the 1.25" Hamlet from Packard and it is a HUNK of metal. I have a piece on the lathe at the moment that I need to not remove until finished as it is in the steady rest. But, as soon as possible, I intend to play with the new gouge and perhaps take some pics to post.

[Rick O'Ryan]

I have been trying to track down Rude's spindle skew for a friend. Thanks for posting the pic. Is this still being made? I like it alot for small spindle work.

[Reed Gray]

Looks like a standard scraper, maybe 1 inch by 5/16 thick, with some thing between a C and a ( nose profile, and almost like a negative rake scraper, as in bevel on top. Might take some time at the grinder.

robo hippy

[robert baccus]

John, I'v always wanted a German type gouge. Years ago I stumbled on a grind that is rare if not unique. I've done this to 2 roughing gouges( 3/4 & 1") and 1 7/8 spindle gouges. I grind them to a 70 deg.+ bevel almost straight across. They are almost unsurpased at removing stock on vase shapes--both in volume of chips and impossible to get a catch. Used almost flat on the tool rest they do loose inside curves and outside curves with no effort. They behave much like a good bottomfeeder but are too wide for thatprobably and leave a decent finish cut to boot. The pic of your German gouge looks like a fairly steep grind also? Good luck

[Bob Bergstrom]

Just finished turning ten 5x7 finials for a railing. Used a 1"Sorby continental with a finger nail grind and a 30 degree grind angle. Cut like a skew on tapers without the possible ripples. Also will catch like a skew if not presented correctly. OUCH!:eek:

[Michael Kellough]

John, they are also refered to as 'German' spindle gouges, though 'continental' as opposed to 'english' is probably truer from my searches. Packard also makes and sells some
229513 (http://www.packardwoodworks.com/Merchant2/merchant.mvc?Screen=CTGY&Store_Code=packard&Category_Code=tools-pkrd-gsg)

I have the two from the HF set and use them for spindle work where I need large curves. since they are forged (with a tang) I don't think i would want to use them for faceplate work.

What is the difference between this and a SRG with a fingernail grind, except the tang?

[John Keeton]

Michael, the radius of the flute is much tighter on a SRG than on the Continental/German gouge, which has a much more open flute.

[Leo Van Der Loo]

I have a couple continental gouges, though I don't use them much, I will give them a try if I have some stubborn grain that doesn't want to cut clean, this will often enough give me a better finish.

The gouge is really a all-around gouge and is was used as such, certainly not a scraper and not a spindle roughing gouge either, with a rounded nose, used as a spindle gouge and hollowing gouge as well, though I rather use a bowl gouge normally, there are times these will get me better results.

Here is an old movie, I've seen it years ago, so went to look for it, it is one where the use of the chisel, hook-tool and continental gouge are shown, note the acute bevel and rounded nose.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-z_Ph6nZfGE

[Peter Blair]

John I see this is an old thread but you may be interested in this story. Yesterday at auction I purchased this tool along with a 3/8 carving gouge for the grand total of $11.80 Canadian. I bid at this auction based on photos on the net so I wasn't too sure what I was bidding on but when I went to pick it up I knew I had something. It weighs in at about 47 oz has a short handle and lots of steel as well as a solid brass ferrel. It appears to have been sharpened with a stone at least the bevel is flat not hollow ground. I can find no evidence of a maker anywhere on the steel of the handle but it does appear to be well made. I will get some wood on my lathe tomorrow and give it a try.
410043410044410045

[John K Jordan]

Peter, your photos are tiny thumbnails so I can't see the detail or the size, but that looks much like a forged continental spindle gouge I have that I like using, often as a spindle roughing gouge. Since the tang in the handle is small and the bite large, I'm sure you know not to use it on face turning (bowls and such) since it is likely to catch on the end grain and the tang can break - people have been injured this way!

Also, with unknown tools, I always use the file test to see if they are hardened properly and how much is hardened. I collect used tools to grind, give, or loan and some are not hardened at all. Some are hardened just an inch or so at the end.

JKJ



John I see this is an old thread but you may be interested in this story. Yesterday at auction I purchased this tool along with a 3/8 carving gouge for the grand total of $11.80 Canadian. I bid at this auction based on photos on the net so I wasn't too sure what I was bidding on but when I went to pick it up I knew I had something. It weighs in at about 47 oz has a short handle and lots of steel as well as a solid brass ferrel. It appears to have been sharpened with a stone at least the bevel is flat not hollow ground. I can find no evidence of a maker anywhere on the steel of the handle but it does appear to be well made. I will get some wood on my lathe tomorrow and give it a try.
410022410023410024

[Pat Scott]

I've been eyeing this tool, it looks like a Continental gouge? It has a shaft instead of tang.

https://carterandsontoolworks.com/collections/spindle-gouges/products/3-4-low-profile-spindle-gouge

[John Keeton]

Pete, that certainly appears to be a continental/German gouge. If you use CBN wheels, I would not sharpen it on them as it may well be carbon steel and may load up the CBN.

Pat, the Carter tool does not appear to me to be a continental gouge as the flute profile appears much deeper. Hard to tell much with website pics.

This is an old thread, of course, started by me. I ended up with a Robert Sorby continental gouge and use it often. It takes a little use to get comfortable with it, but it will produce very nice cuts and very useful on vase forms for getting well formed curvatures. At the time, Sorby was the only source I could find, but that may not be the case now.

[Peter Blair]

Ok the part about a catch has me quite nervous, thanks for sharing I guess only time will tell if I ever decide it's worth adding to my tool favourites.

[Peter Blair]

Thanks John I will for sure take your advise and after reading this thread I must say I am a little more than just a bit nervous to try it. Glad to have this wonderful group of turners who so readily share their collective knowledge and experience. Anyone out there who can explain just why this tool would be especially grabby or catchy when turning a vase shape which is what I seem to do mostly these days?

[John K Jordan]

Thanks John I will for sure take your advise and after reading this thread I must say I am a little more than just a bit nervous to try it. Glad to have this wonderful group of turners who so readily share their collective knowledge and experience. Anyone out there who can explain just why this tool would be especially grabby or catchy when turning a vase shape which is what I seem to do mostly these days?

It shouldn't be grabby on end grain work as with a vase shape if the grain orientation is down the axis of the piece. You are essentially cutting side grain the entire time, or cutting endgrain continuously "downhill", a safe maneuver.

However, it can be a problem with face grain where the grain orientation is across the piece so you are cutting across end grain twice on each revolution. People have broken spindle roughing gouges like this when the name "roughing gouge" made it seem perfect for roughing out a bowl. These are universally called "spindle roughing gouges" now to help prevent that.

You can of course get a nice catch on end grain work if you present the tool the wrong way! However, the severity of the catch and forces are nothing like that on face grain turning. You can still ruin the work but are unlikely to ruin your life. As always, sharpen properly and practice, practice, practice on a cylinder before starting the vase.

Pat, the CarterAndSon gouge does have a shallow machined flute somewhat similar to the forged continental spindle gouge profile. It has a tighter radius that those I've used which may effect the way it handles but that's pure speculation - I haven't tried one. It sure is expensive though! And probably heavy. My personal policy is to buy elsewhere but his tools are in fact well made.

JKJ

[Pat Scott]

Pat, the CarterAndSon gouge does have a shallow machined flute somewhat similar to the forged continental spindle gouge profile. It has a tighter radius that those I've used which may effect the way it handles but that's pure speculation - I haven't tried one. It sure is expensive though! And probably heavy. My personal policy is to buy elsewhere but his tools are in fact well made.

JKJ

It's not too bad, $65 without handle. It's advertised as a "Low Profile Spindle Gouge". I was looking at the 3/4" size thinking it would help me make smooth curves on peppermills. They also make a 1/2" version for $55, but it's 1/2" shank diameter which I don't think would produce flowing curves like the 3/4" would. I've debated with regrinding my 3/4" SRG with the wings swept back, but then I wouldn't have an excuse to buy a new tool.

[Perry Hilbert Jr]

I am trying to figure out what this Continental Gouge is. When i look at the Robert Sorby catalog entry, it looks to me, just like the bowl gouges that came with sets 50 years ago. It was the only bowl gouge we had back in the day.

[John K Jordan]

It's not too bad, $65 without handle. It's advertised as a "Low Profile Spindle Gouge". I was looking at the 3/4" size thinking it would help me make smooth curves on peppermills. They also make a 1/2" version for $55, but it's 1/2" shank diameter which I don't think would produce flowing curves like the 3/4" would. I've debated with regrinding my 3/4" SRG with the wings swept back, but then I wouldn't have an excuse to buy a new tool.

I have the 5/8" Thompson "StLeger" roughing gouge. I don't see a photo on Doug's web site but this is a photo of mine along with the 1" gouge (which he no longer makes because it was too much trouble!)

410072

For small work I don't even put it in a handle but hold the 5/8" round shaft. I like it for roughing and curves. The cross-section is a deep "U" shape. I keep it ground as it came, straight across without sweeping back the wings. This gives the advantage of having two straight cutting edges at the corners which I use just like a skew chisel.

But for most "flowing" curves on peppermill-sized work, I prefer a spindle gouge and/or a spindle detail gouge to get into tight spots, the 1/2" Thompson's for that size of work, 3/8' for smaller diameter pieces.

Have you ever tried the Hunter Hercules tools for your peppermills? I use them a lot on both spindles and face work like platters.

JKJ

[Peter Blair]

Thanks for the note John. I will for sure heed your advise re the CBN wheels. Incidentally I did run a file on the sides of this tool and discovered that about half the length is hardened.

[John K Jordan]

Pete, that certainly appears to be a continental/German gouge. If you use CBN wheels, I would not sharpen it on them as it may well be carbon steel and may load up the CBN.


CBN actually does quite well sharpening carbon steel and won't load up as long as the steel is hardened. Mild, unhardened steel can be a problem if ground with some force but I still grind it at times with no loading, gently.

Peter, A problem with non HSS carbon steel, of course, is overheating and "bluing" and ruining the hardness of the edge. I treat any unknown hardened tool as non HSS unless it is clearly marked. I suppose it would be easy to load up a CBN wheel with even hardened carbon steel if ground with enough force to heat and destroy the hardness.

Earlier I mentioned the file test to determined if a given tool was hardened, and if so, for how much of the length from the tip. For those not familiar with the file test, the paragraph on testing in this wiki article describes it well: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hardened_steel

JKJ

[Peter Blair]

Thanks again John I am amazed at the depth of information you possess and the readiness you have to share. I did thy a file test and it seems to be hardened about half the length of the blade (about 6") I did touch it to a piece I was working on yesterday but even though it feels sharp it would not cut at all. I just may try gently sharpening it on my CBN wheel today. Thanks again!