Lie-Nielsen Chisel Delay

[bryan vick]

So I ordered a 1/4" mortising chisel, and a set of 5 bevel edge chisels from Lie-Nielsen at the end of February. They are having trouble with chisel production, and my order has been delayed 3 times. Now they are saying I can expect them 6 weeks from today, which makes a total delay of about 3 months.

As much as I like their tools, I'm unhappy with how they have handled this whole situation. I think I want to buy my chisels from another vendor now. I only want to cry once, so I want top quality, can anyone recommend chisels that are equal to or better than the LN?

[bob blakeborough]

If the budget allows, Dave Jeske at Blue Spruce Toolworks is an amazing chisel maker. You would not be disappointed!

http://www.bluesprucetoolworks.com/

[Chris Griggs]

Order them from http://www.craftsmanstudio.com/html_p/A!CBS.htm (http://www.craftsmanstudio.com/html_p/A%21CBS.htm) 01s have a delay but it looks like the set of A2s is in stock as is the 1/4 mortise chisel (at least according to the website). Plus shipping is free!

[David Weaver]

If you buy chisels made of identifiable materials, and you can request information the brand here, then it doesn't really matter that much to have "top of the line" (which in reality is something hand forged, and well beyond what you'll want to spend, I think). Chisels are the easiest thing to sharpen, so finding one that holds the edge until the next millenium isn't as important as finding one that holds an edge in general.

The remainder of what you're paying for LN bench chisels is just in the level of finish (which is an attraction to beginners, but I don't think you'll find too many career or even 5-year woodworkers running out to get them).

As far as mortising, what do you want to do with your mortising chisel? The LN chisel is a sash mortise chisel. If I were only going to cut mortises, that's not the style I would get (though I actually have that exact chisel, and it is good quality, I don't use it and I pinch it only on the suspicion that I may want a straight sided mortise chisel at some point - which is probably in reality never). What I'm saying is that if I wanted a premium chisel to make mortises, I'd get the ray iles chisel. If I just wanted a mortise chisel in general and wasn't particular, I would get anything.

The difference between LN chisels and others is overstated, it's the things that make them easy for beginners to use that makes people love them, but even if you are a beginner now, you soon will not be, and having spent many times what a set of LNs cost on the various chisels I've hoarded, they would not be on my personal list of chisels to have at this point if price is a factor.

Presume you're a relative beginner? Is that fair to say?

I would personally buy the set of 5 mk2 bench (the cabinetmaker's style, not the carpenter's style) chisels here, and add the 1/8th chisel. They are good quality chisels, easily sharpenable and can hold their edge fine. You can call the seller to make sure they're in stock:
http://www.thebestthings.com/newtools/ashley_iles_bench.htm

Joel (at tools for working wood) is also a good option.

I have no affiliation to either, but I have ordered from both.

[Zach England]

I buy all my new LN tools from craftsman studio. They have free shipping and I get my purchase in two-three days from California to Utah. I have ordered directly from LN a few times for things Craftsman Studio did not carry and the order takes a week or more.

[bryan vick]

I originally ordered O1, which is why they have been delayed so much. A2 is available from craftsman studio as Zach pointed out. I wanted O1 because I have a powered sharpener that makes touching up easy, and I don't mind touching up chisels often as long as I have the sharpest edge possible.

Thanks for the info David, I'll take a look at the Ashley Iles. I'll also look at Blue Spruce.

[David Weaver]

I think O1 is the smarter choice for chisels, anyway. I never understood why anyone would use A2 in bench chisels. The toughness might be an asset for mortise chisels, but your bench chisels should never receive the kind of abuse that would make for any advantage, and it lags where you really want to go - which is to be able to use the lowest bevel angle where the chisel will still hold an edge well.

With the $150 - $200 difference in price vs. 6 AI chisels, I would bank the money for things you might like to have later, like carving tools - as far as I know, there's no cheap way to get carving tools if you have a specific need.

[Marko Milisavljevic]

I would personally buy the set of 5 mk2 bench (the cabinetmaker's style, not the carpenter's style) chisels here, and add the 1/8th chisel.

Hmm... why wouldn't you just buy the set of 6? As far as I can tell it is the same as set of 5 + 1/8" but at better price.

[David Weaver]

Oh, i didn't notice it! The same thing for less money is always good.

[Jessica Pierce-LaRose]

FWIW, I have a couple of AI chisels and and gouges, and I love them. They aren't the ones I use for whacking out big chunks of waste (they feel a little on the thin and flexy side, at least in the smaller sizes I have) but for everything else I love them.

[David Weaver]

As most people move along their woodworking, I think they will find they prefer a chisel that has that thinner profile, it is easier to use for accurate work.

At least that's the direction I've gone, and I remember reading posts from experienced woodworkers 5 years ago or whatever thinking "why wouldn't they want a chisel with more heft?", but I can understand why now. I think the older english style tools are nicer than a lot of what we've been given in the US (though some of the older US chisels are very nicely made).

Keep a cheap firmer or two around for really heavy work where you intend to nearly abuse a chisel, something that is fairly easy to sharpen, because no matter how good the chisel, heavy work will always send you sharpening fairly often.

[bryan vick]

Thanks for the input everyone, it was helpful.

I ended up ordering a set of 6 AI MK2 chisels from thebestthings, and a 1/4" and 1/2" Ray Iles english mortising chisels from TFWW. 1/2" mortising chisel is delayed 2 months though. I guess I'll be cutting the 1/2" mortises for my bench build before I cut any 1/4" mortises.

[David Weaver]

I think you made a good choice. It seems like there are delays in a lot of the good tools lately. If you get in a pinch and you need a chisel to beat into 1/2" mortises, you can buy any $10 chisel at the home depot and beat it up with a heavy hammer and cut the mortises. It won't be as nice to use, but it will get the job done if you sharpen it.

You may find that you don't use a 1/2" mortise chisel much after you do your bench, anyway. The RI mortise chisels are really lovely.

[lowell holmes]

I have 1/4 and 3/8 mortise chisels from LN and RI. I use the ones that's most appropriate for the job at hand.

I decided I wanted a 1/2" pig sticker and didn't want to spend the price and the wait for the RI. I bought the 1/2" Narex mortise chisel from Lee Valley. It's not a RI, but it performs nearly as well. It costs less than $20.

[Jessica Pierce-LaRose]

As most people move along their woodworking, I think they will find they prefer a chisel that has that thinner profile, it is easier to use for accurate work.

At least that's the direction I've gone, and I remember reading posts from experienced woodworkers 5 years ago or whatever thinking "why wouldn't they want a chisel with more heft?", but I can understand why now. I think the older english style tools are nicer than a lot of what we've been given in the US (though some of the older US chisels are very nicely made).

Keep a cheap firmer or two around for really heavy work where you intend to nearly abuse a chisel, something that is fairly easy to sharpen, because no matter how good the chisel, heavy work will always send you sharpening fairly often.

Oh, I certainly do. I have a few heavier chisels for those times I want to kerf a piece of wood and knock out big old chunks, or I don't feel like coping out the waste of a dovetail or whatever, but most of chisel work is a little more controlled lately, and I like the AI chisels for that. Sometimes it's a hassle, because with the flex, if you're trying to register off the back of the blade and make a paring cut, and you let it bite a little too much wood, it will flex and want to dive into the wood and "stall". But that hasn't happened to me in a while - it's a matter of control and knowing where to remove wood from and how much and how, and knowing when to stop.

A nice chisel is a beautiful thing. I think they're skills well worth practicing. A lot of times on smaller surfaces I use chisels as smoothers for weird little spots of tearout; this works particularly well on chamfers and other spots, but I've even been doing it in the middle of surfaces lately.

I'll second Lowell's comment on the Narex mortise chisels - I've been quite happy with mine. I might purchase something nicer for 1/4" mortises, because I seem to be using that one a whole lot, but for the price, they're hard to beat, and they're easy to get.

[Tony Shea]

I hate to say it but I have to really disagree about the LN chisels being overstated. Also about career woodworkers not wanting to replace their chisels with the LN's. This is all opinion, but I don't think there is a better chisel on the market than what LN offers. For me there are as close to a perfectly designed chisel as I can imagine. I do prefer the O1 chisels but even find it worth having a couple A2's around for the harder exotic woods I deal with. I cut a ton of dovetails in my work and LN chisels are just perfect for this type of work. I just recently got done with a Honduras Rosewood dovetailed box and had to use my A2 LN's with a 30*+ bevel to keep the edge sharp enough to get through more than a couple whacks. That stuff was a nightmare on any other chisel I fed it, with the exception of a couple japanese chisels (fujihiro).

The LN's are pricey, but when compared with other high end chisels out there I think they're very competively priced. Look at some of the high Japanese hand made chisel prices. And i've seen many professional woodworkers, timberframers and carpenters that wouldn't trade their LN's for anything else. I love the balance of the chisels, their handles, and the size of the edge bevel. Just a well made chisel that fits my needs perfectly. But again, this is my personal opinion and chisels can be a very personal tool. I also love to support my local Maine company so I may be a little bias.

[seth lowden]

Just as another data point, I had a set of LN chisels when they first came out. I thought they were just fine. I sold them for more than I bought them for and bought the AI MK2 set of six. I like them also. They are all just means to an end.

[James Taglienti]

Not sure why but in the last 8 months i suddenly decided that I don't like socket chisels at all... got rid of the set of witherbys and put together a set of EA Berg... The bergs are paper thin and short, but boy do they fit the hand and take a great edge. Its nice to use a few fingers to pull the handle into your palm, something I couldnt do with a socket chisel. I hardly ever strike chisels anyway

[Derek Cohen]

Not sure why but in the last 8 months i suddenly decided that I don't like socket chisels at all... got rid of the set of witherbys and put together a set of EA Berg... The bergs are paper thin and short, but boy do they fit the hand and take a great edge. Its nice to use a few fingers to pull the handle into your palm, something I couldnt do with a socket chisel. I hardly ever strike chisels anyway

Hi James

Interesting. I went the other way. I sold my set of 9 Bergs, which had taken some years to put together, and rebuilt a set of Stanley #750s. Admittedly, the Bergs were originally sold to part-fund a set of Kiyohisa slicks (3-year wait and $$$$), but I do prefer the #750s to the Bergs. They have been modified from the original, and are now much closer to the LNs as I re-profiled the shoulders.

I use both Japanese slicks and dovetail chisels. One is for pushing and the other for use with a nomi. I think that the use of a nomi or hammer is much misunderstood by woodworkers (or, that I misunderstood this for years and narcissistically think that others travel the same path to insights as I do :rolleyes:). A hammer should not be used to force the chisel through the wood (unless you are removing waste as with a mortice chisel). Instead, a hammer can offer much in the way of control. It frees one to concentrate on holding the chisel in position and using gentle taps to "push". That said, I also enjoy using a chisel freehand (hence the slicks). The 750s offer me both worlds as I lengthened the handles on mine. By extrapolation, I consider the LNs to be excellent all-round bench chisels (although the handles are too short for me).

For the OP, I think that he did well with the AIs. I have not had much experience with them, but what I have had confirms that the handles are comfortable, the steel is very good, and the balance is excellent. There should be no post-purchase remorse here! :)

For others, let me throw this into the mix: there are chisels coming from Lee Valley. I believe that the O1 production is due soon, to be followed by the PM steel version. The O1 chisels are expected to be priced between the AI and LN (I know as much about this as anyone, so do not quote me). I shall be able to report more about these chisels, per se, in the near future. So one more choice. I bet your head hurts as much as mine! :)

Regards from Perth

Derek

[James Taglienti]

Hi James

Interesting. I went the other way. I sold my set of 9 Bergs, which had taken some years to put together, and rebuilt a set of Stanley #750s. Admittedly, the Bergs were originally sold to part-fund a set of Kiyohisa slicks (3-year wait and $$$$), but I do prefer the #750s to the Bergs. They have been modified from the original, and are now much closer to the LNs as I re-profiled the shoulders.


Derek

Derek,
Also interesting, i had a couple Bergs for years and enjoyed the steel how thin they were, but didnt know if they were all like that . It was an old post of yours on a different forum, praising them for the same, that convinced me to fill out the set. Maybe in 5 years i will have sold them and put together a set of custom ground 750's. :D

[lowell holmes]

My bench chisels are 750's and LN. I have three 1" 750's, and one of them is on the bench at all times. If I need to chop a 1" square through mortise, the 1" LN comes out. It is one tough chisel.
The 750's do well for paring a joint because of the comfort.