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View Full Version : Make any sense to use cherry if you plan to stain?



Alan Tolchinsky
03-27-2005, 11:36 PM
Hi All,

Does it make any sense to use cherry wood when you're going to stain in the end? Since cherry darkens over time you won't know what you'll end up with down the road. And it sometimes splotches with stain. Why not just use birch or maple and stain that instead. I like working with cherry but if you're going to stain what wood would you use? What am I missing here?

Steve Cox
03-28-2005, 12:25 AM
Alder is a great choice if you're going to stain. If stained to the right color it looks like cherry and not nearly as expensive. One reason to use cherry and stain is if you want the look of cherry but you want to help it along the way to its darkened state rather than waiting years.

Bill Arnold
03-28-2005, 3:06 AM
I agree with you about staining cherry. The only thing I do with cherry is couple of coats of hand-rubbed oil followed by varnish or lacquer for protection. Living in Florida provides plenty of sunshine year-round to kick-start the natural coloring process.

Todd Burch
03-28-2005, 7:56 AM
Stain can be used for several reasons... to make one wood look like another... to make wood look like someting it would never otherwise be (like blue, or old looking in your lifetime)... to even out color differences in boards that you want to look the same... to match an existing piece or decor... or simply because that is what is desired.

Should women (or men for that matter) color their hair? Get suntans? Sometimes, coloring of any kind helps the base product.

I'm not against staining any wood if there's a good reason to do it. Sometimes, "I want to" is a good enough reason.

There's a large camp of woodworkers that feel specifically about not staining cherry. Not me. Sometimes you can have a piece that you've built that that says "Hey, look at my natural beauty - look at my grain and how my maker put me together". Or, you might have a piece that says "Oh my goodness - PLEASE - do something quick to me to take the attention OFF of my grain or proportions".

Cherry is a beautiful wood, but even Supermodels use makeup.

Stain can help any piece and hurt any piece. I say do whatever feels appropriate. Use and develop your design sense.

Jim Becker
03-28-2005, 8:59 AM
As a normal rule, I do not use coloration on cherry...it's almost "sinful" in my mind. That said, I did use some dye on my recent mantle project purely because I could not depend upon UV to be present in the place it was going. In the future, I'd use a chemical oxidant for this purpose to avoid use of dye if I really had to speed things up, but prefer natual aging of this beautiful species. But that's me. Therefore, I agree with Todd and also say, "Do what feels appropriate."

Mike Cutler
03-28-2005, 9:04 AM
Alan. I find that I gravitate toward the types of wood I am familiar with, by that I mean wood movement, grain structure,workability, stability, stainability, etc. If you are comfortable working with cherry,and have confidence in it I say stick with it.
A lot of furniture has been made with cherry and stained a darker shade for a variety of reasons. You won't be the first to do it.

Ken Salisbury
03-28-2005, 12:51 PM
Putting stain on cherry would be like putting a burlap sack on Shania Twain :D

John Gregory
03-28-2005, 1:05 PM
I agree with Ken.:D

Todd Burch
03-28-2005, 1:20 PM
I think I could handle Shania Twain in a burlap sack...

lou sansone
03-28-2005, 2:20 PM
gee .... looks like I am in the minority on this one.. I happen to like using water base dyes on cherry. At least this is my current thinking on it. I see lots of cherry that is naked ( all natural ) to me it looks naked IMHO.
I would not "stain" cherry with a pigment, and if that is what the post is about, then I agree with the rest of the posts. That is going to muddy it up. But I have found that dye if applied with some sensitivity, tends to bring out some of the figure or grain in cherry. I think for shaker types of furniture that undyed looks better, but for 18th century pieces I seems to just fit in better with a bunch of antiques. Interesting discussion
lou

Steve Cox
03-28-2005, 2:27 PM
One other place that stain or dye makes sense with cherry is if you are trying to blend the wood. I have seen finishers (I'm not one of them) do some amazing things in blending sapwood with heartwood or making different colored boards all the same tone. Personally I prefer it natural but it depends on what you want to accomplish with the piece or (most importantly) what the customer wants

JayStPeter
03-28-2005, 3:44 PM
Shania in a burlap sack sounds fine to me too.

I like working with cherry. So, I have used it on a project that wasn't meant to look like cherry. Not something I'll always do, but it worked well for the project. If Alder had been significantly cheaper, I would've gone with that. But, my local sawmill has Cherry cheaper than I can buy Alder at a wood dealer. Since I didn't have to match anything, it has aged particularly nice. I purposely colored it a little lighter than requested. I did tan my practice scraps outside for a few days to see how they would change. The piece is in a sunny area. I suspect the stain has started to fade, but it isn't noticeable with the Cherry darkening underneath.
Overall, I try to avoid stains by using the wood I want. But, there's not always a wood for the desired color and budget. In this case, a chocolate brown was desired ("not cherry" was specified). I think the piece would've looked better natural, but the "customer" was happy.

Jay

markus shaffer
03-28-2005, 3:51 PM
While not a religeous person, I do like to think there are some deeds that get punished.. I'll have to agree with Jim on this one.. I don't know about utilizing the word "sinful" but I did once hear a quote by Kelly Mehler that might be applicable. He said something along these lines..

"There is a special place in hell for people who rip cut wide boards and glue them back together to keep them from warping."

Similarly, I think perhaps cherry is best left alone... Special terrible place for people who stain cherry? I don't know..



Alright, I'm just playing devil's advocate here.. While I don't color anything that leaves my shop, I think you should go with what feels best and or what your client is asking for.

-Markus


By the way, what's a Shania Twain?

Martin Shupe
03-28-2005, 4:02 PM
If you choose your wood carefully, and the grain and color match throughout the project, I don't think that cherry needs any stain.

Having said that, cherry has a lot of variability from tree to tree. I have several "flavors" of cherry in my stash, and I have to be careful to pick boards from the same flavor for each project.

My wife likes cherry that has pitch pockets, small dark areas some are say are caused by an insect. So when I build something for her, I tend to pick those boards.

I also have some cherry that has very dark bands in the growth rings. I call this "mineral cherry". I am not sure, but I think the dark bands are caused by minerals in the local soil.

I have some cherry that I got from PA that is uniformly salmon colored. Very nice, but very pricey.

I also have a limited supply of curly cherry...I am saving those boards for a special project yet to be determined.

If you can find enough similar "flavored" cherry for your project, I don't think stain is necessary. If your project contains different flavors of cherry, a carefully selected stain may be what you need to tie it all together.

I have been trying various finishes for cherry. Currently my favorite is two coats of Tried and True Original (not the varnish mix) followed by several coats of Waterlox Medium Sheen...I just keep putting on coats until I like the sheen...not too shiny, just a little.

The only bad thing about cherry is that I can never get enough wide boards. :D

Alan Tolchinsky
03-28-2005, 4:02 PM
Putting stain on cherry would be like putting a burlap sack on Shania Twain :D

Hey Ken, She would look good even in a burlap sack.

Alan Tolchinsky
03-28-2005, 4:09 PM
Hi All,
What I should have asked is what wood/plywood do you use when you know you're going to use stain? It's not that I like to stain cherry; it's just that I've worked with it a lot. And sometimes I just wanted a different look to the project. So I'm looking for a good wood/plywood for projects I'm going to be staining. Sorry about the confusion. Alan

Steve Roxberg
03-28-2005, 5:13 PM
Putting stain on cherry would be like putting a burlap sack on Shania Twain :D

Wait, Shania Twain would look good in a burlap sack or anything else for that matter. :)

Ernie Hobbs
03-28-2005, 6:13 PM
It looks like I am in the minority here. I agree that cherry looks best in it's natural form. That's great for shaker or more modern types of furniture. But, for an 18th century reproduction, a little stain is necessary to blend with other period pieces. Cherry is a beautiful wood, stained or not, if done right. I don't agree that you should use a secondary wood and stain it "cherry". If you want it look like cherry, then use cherry. You should use the the wood appropriate for the job.

Dave Avery
03-28-2005, 7:47 PM
While not a religeous person, I do like to think there are some deeds that get punished.. I'll have to agree with Jim on this one.. I don't know about utilizing the word "sinful" but I did once hear a quote by Kelly Mehler that might be applicable. He said something along these lines..

"There is a special place in hell for people who rip cut wide boards and glue them back together to keep them from warping."

Similarly, I think perhaps cherry is best left alone... Special terrible place for people who stain cherry? I don't know..



Alright, I'm just playing devil's advocate here.. While I don't color anything that leaves my shop, I think you should go with what feels best and or what your client is asking for.

-Markus


By the way, what's a Shania Twain?

Agree with your sentiments, Markus......

And to answer your question, Shania Twain is a particularly "well turned" country music singer.

Aaron Heck
03-28-2005, 8:40 PM
I've never understood the whole thing of adversity to staining cherry. I think it's the same as everyone wants to jump on the bandwagon to bash bose and microsoft. Maybe they just feel better being a follower?

Me, I like working with cherry a lot. I love the grain pattern. Sure, it's very nice with only an oil finish. But I also think it's very nice with a stain or colored shellac, too. Just personal preference, but I think it gets old the whole "I think it's wrong to stain cherry" thing. You don't see anyone telling you not to dye curly maple, do you? Just don't understand it.........

Aaron

Robert Beaumont
03-17-2010, 3:58 PM
I am new to sawmill creek I want to thank the post that I read about not staining cherry. I have made a Travern Drop Leaf Table out of Ohio Cherry and I did not stain only used a lacquer finish. It is turning a nice tone.

Thanks for the help in the finish.

Robert Beaumont
Ohio

Faust M. Ruggiero
03-17-2010, 5:00 PM
Decide for yourself.
fmr

Frank Drew
03-17-2010, 5:12 PM
Don't dye curly maple.

:D.

Al Navas
03-17-2010, 5:15 PM
Expose cherry to sunlight for several days in a row, even if it already has a topcoat. Watch it develop a wonderful suntan! Nothing on cherry for this guy. OR on Shania...

.

Tony Bilello
03-17-2010, 5:19 PM
We all see things differently so here is how I see things.
If you take desireable woods like cherry or mahogany they will look good whether stained ot not. All the stain usually does it darken it somewhat.
If you take some of the less desirable woods like birch or poplar you are still just darkening it to make it look better, but they still lack the 'character' of the more expensive woods.
You can never give pine the same appeal as walnut no matter what you do to it. Walnut also speaks fopr itself whether stained or not.

Chris Padilla
03-17-2010, 5:27 PM
I though I'd point out to everyone that this is a 5 year old post revived. Good thread...just a tad old.... :)

Al Navas
03-17-2010, 5:29 PM
By the way, I believe you want to use a dye, not a stain. I see the two used interchangeably, but they are not:


Dyes are transparent, with all the solids in solution - NO solids in the liquid. And using dyes also ensures you can see the grain structure, etc.
Stains have solids in them that do NOT dissolve, and therefore tend to differentiate the pores in woods like oak. The solids do not penetrated the fiber like the dyes do, as they basically will sit on the surface looking like...solids. :) Stains obscure the grain, and will even hide it.

.

Chris Padilla
03-17-2010, 5:30 PM
Al,

You want to differentiate between pigment and dye. :)

Al Navas
03-17-2010, 5:30 PM
I though I'd point out to everyone that this is a 5 year old post revived. Good thread...just a tad old.... :)
Thanks, Chris! It is a good thing to re-visit old friends, and re-establish the connection. ;) Good for the newbies, and for the soul.

.

Chip Lindley
03-17-2010, 6:46 PM
I am new to sawmill creek I want to thank the post that I read about not staining cherry. I have made a Travern Drop Leaf Table out of Ohio Cherry and I did not stain only used a lacquer finish. It is turning a nice tone.

Thanks for the help in the finish.

Robert Beaumont
Ohio
Some woods are bland and beg for a stain. Case In Point--hard maple. The fiddle-back or birdseye figure is quite nice, but the background is a bland off-white! Maple cries out, "Stain me Please!"

Not so with cherry. It is a rich reddish-brown from the gitgo. UV rays darken it quite nicely in a relatively short time. Real patina is something which cannot be achieved with stain or dye.

If you insist upon the individualistic approach to color cherry at your whim, at least do it right. Research how to best achieve the tone you want. It's a little more than brushing on MinWax!!

I will finish my cherry kitchen in progress with a clear coat. I will enjoy watching the patina darken and become more enriched.

Vince Shriver
03-17-2010, 6:55 PM
Putting stain on cherry would be like putting a burlap sack on Shania Twain :D

Cherry should look so good!

Steve Griffin
03-17-2010, 8:41 PM
I avoid staining as much as my customers let me. Hickory and oak are the most tolerable to stain, as it just fills in the little crevices and highlights the grain. Alder takes stain nice too, but often needs a conditioner first.

I wouldn't go so far as to say staining cherry is a sin. But I would say using water based finish on cherry is a huge mistake. I've tried all sorts of water based lacquers, tinting and sealers and such, and it's always been a disaster. Especially as it ages, it looks like you soaked it in greywater from the washing machine.

Fir and walnut are not the best either with my water based finish methods, but nothing I've seen comes out worse than cherry.

-Steve ( who had to strip and refinish a cherry bed once with a water based finish it was so ugly....)

Jim Becker
03-17-2010, 10:07 PM
In some respects I have to disagree, Steve, regarding using water borne finishes on cherry. I absolutely concur that they are not the best when applied directly to the cherry (with on exception that I'll mention in a moment) but the the negatives are nil when they are used in conjunction with other finishing products to prepare and highlight the wood. (This applies to walnut, too, in my experience). My normal finishing regimen is BLO, dewaxed shellac and then Target Coatings EM6000. It's every bit as warm and glowing as an oil based finish in total would be, but with the speed and easy that is enjoyable to experience. (with walnut, I may or may not use the BLO, as I really like the look of shellac on walnut) I have cherry pieces that were finished nearly ten years ago (with a predicessor product) and they remain the bee's knees when it comes to that beautiful cherry color that develops over time. No "greywater" effect that I've seen.

The one exception to the "directly on the wood" definition above that I've found is Target's EM2000, which is a water borne alkyd varnish that Target, um...targets...at cherry. (Based on a conversation I had with Jeff Weiss at a show a few years ago.) It has the warmth of an oil based finish with the benefits of water borne application and cleanup.

BTW, this thread is from 2005.... ;)

It also needs to be said that many of the current water borne products are so much better than those available only just a few years ago. The industry has been working hard to overcome deficiencies because they know that increasing VOC regulation is going to push more and more finishers into water borne products. That hard work is good for all of us, but especially hobbyists since most of us that do this for fun don't have sophisticated finishing facilities that can safely deal with solvent-based lacquer, etc.

Steve Griffin
03-17-2010, 10:16 PM
Thanks Jim,
I was hoping someone who has found success with water based products on Cherry would chime in. I'll save your post for future experiments!

I definitely use as much water based stuff as I can these days. (I love Valspar lacquer sprayed on white oak--looks like bamboo without the ambering)

-Steve

Dennis Lopeman
03-18-2010, 11:27 AM
I prefer my shania naked, too... I mean my wood... cherry wood... LOL

Yes - a thread from 2005!!! Awesome.

I learned from my wood mill that Pacific Red Maple is many time used as a Cherry substitute. If you are staining it (I really hope that guy who started this thread finished his project by now!) and the Red Maple is HALF the price of CHerry!

Cherry = $4.15 /board foot
P. Red Maple = $2.10/board foot

and that's why I was asking in my other Kitchen Cabinet Thread if I should stain/dye it... I know it's "sinful" but a couple years down the road I don't want the two different woods to change and look drastically different from one another (yeah - I'm using both - maybe I shouldn't?) I certainly don't want it looking like it was in a washer machine! Maybe I shouldn't be so cheap and just do the whole kitchen in real cherry... with a little Shania Twain... Throw in a little Jessica Alba... ;)

Chris Padilla
03-18-2010, 7:40 PM
I've read that even Bob Flexner (Mr. Guide to Understanding Wood Finishing) likes to dye all his wood because of how it can highlight the figure. He goes on about adding depth, evening out the color, etc.

After using some NGR dye on a walnut project of mine, I'm a big believer. I needed to blend red and chocolate walnut...the NGR dye did a magnificient job.