Rough or smooth edges when edge gluing boards?

[Rob Joeseph]

Hey guys,

This seems like a minor detail that I forgot which is best. I'll be jointing the edges of some 5'' wide boards together. One edge will be jointed and the other would be a straight line rip from the tablesaw, it might have some saw marks on it.

Should I also joint this edge before glue up? Or leave the slightly rough edge so the glue better adheres.

I'm thinking does leaving a somewhat rough edge help the glue bite into the other board as opposed to a smooth edge?

Thanks

[Howard Acheson]

The closer the two surfaces mate, the stronger the joint and the less noticeable the joint line.

Smoothness is good as is tight clamp pressure.

[glenn bradley]

Things like epoxy benefit from having something to get a grip on. I make PVA glue joints fit as well as possible. If your rip cuts leave marks you can see but, can't really feel; that's usually good enough for me. Irregularity of any degree will prevent a tight seam and therefor make them more visible or even have gaps; obviously not desired.

[Rob Joeseph]

I see, I see.

This all makes more sense. I'll just lightly smooth the table saw rip edge with a sanding block before mating the edges. Thank you both for the input. Love this site.

[Bruce Page]

I no longer use the jointer for edge jointing glue-ups. I find that my Freud glue line rip blade leaves a ready for glue-up edge finish.

[Rob Joeseph]

I no longer use the jointer for edge jointing glue-ups. I find that my Freud glue line rip blade leaves a ready for glue-up edge finish.

Do you mean you just rip each side of the board and it leaves a good finish? That's not a bad idea, espceially for those without a good jointer.

[Bruce Page]

Yes. As long as the boards are flat and true, and I do not have to deal with any bow, I rip & glue. I get a very nice finish using my Unisaw and the Freud glue-line rip blade.

[Jerry Thompson]

I'm with Brian on the Freud rip blade. It's one of the best tool investments I have ever made.

[Damon Stathatos]

If you lay your boards out, match up your grain and such, then fold the two boards back together, just like you're closing a book, and run both through the jointer together at the same time, you should have a perfectly matched glueing surfaces. The surface does not need to necessarily be rough, perfectly matched surfaces would do you better.

With a panel made up of multiples of more than two boards, just keep doing it to each adjoining pair.

[Rob Joeseph]

If you lay your boards out, match up your grain and such, then fold the two boards back together, just like you're closing a book, and run both through the jointer together at the same time, you should have a perfectly matched glueing surfaces. The surface does not need to necessarily be rough, perfectly matched surfaces would do you better.

With a panel made up of multiples of more than two boards, just keep doing it to each adjoining pair.

That's a great idea. Thank you.




And I'm probably going to get that glue line rip blade by Freud as well. I wonder if they make them for circular saws too?

[Bruce Page]

Also, clamp pressure is necessary of course, but you do not want to clamp the joint too tightly and squeeze out all of the glue. I firmly snug the clamps and leave it to dry.

[Kent A Bathurst]

If you lay your boards out, match up your grain and such, then fold the two boards back together, just like you're closing a book, and run both through the jointer together at the same time, you should have a perfectly matched glueing surfaces. The surface does not need to necessarily be rough, perfectly matched surfaces would do you better.

With a panel made up of multiples of more than two boards, just keep doing it to each adjoining pair.

Yep.. However, I no longer try to run them in pairs. I run them individually in the same "book page" orientation that Damon explained. The reason I changed is that I had a couple foot-faults keeping two boards together, and found it easier to do one at a time. Same principle, though - even if the jointer fence is one-half of one degree off dead-nuts perpendicular, you still get mating edges that leave the surfaces flat. White chalk triangle to orient everything, then run them through the jointer.

[Bob Wingard]

I see, I see.

This all makes more sense. I'll just lightly smooth the table saw rip edge with a sanding block before mating the edges. Thank you both for the input. Love this site.

I was taught to never glue a sanded surface ... only a cut one ... the dust can pack i n the pores and prevent good adhesion ... of course, that info. was over 50 years ago, so take it for what it's worth. I follow it to this day, and have never had a problem. I joint both edges of a glueup.

[Rob Joeseph]

I was taught to never glue a sanded surface ... only a cut one ... the dust can pack i n the pores and prevent good adhesion ... of course, that info. was over 50 years ago, so take it for what it's worth. I follow it to this day, and have never had a problem. I joint both edges of a glueup.

Lucky I read that. I'm going to scratch the sanding idea then. Would be better to replace the sandpaper with a light block plane I suppose. Or just have the edge's already jointed from the jointer/saw.

[Mike Henderson]

My first reaction is that you're over thinking this. I've been gluing up directly from the table saw for years. And I don't think it's possible to squeeze out glue so that you won't get a good glue joint. In my early days, I used extreme clamp pressure and never had a glue joint failure. You only need a very small amount of glue to hold two surfaces that are well fitted to each other.

Mike

[HANK METZ]

Straightline rips as suggested are fine, if you do joint all instead, use sharp knives, dull ones compress the fibers creating a poor bond.

- Beachside Hank

[Will Phillips]

I am with the majority of posts; joint one edge, mark with chalk and use a Freud glue line rip. Sometimes I use a couple biscuits on multiple board glue ups just to help with alignment and I switched to Titebond 3 - it seems to have a bit longer working time. Be ready with all your cauls and clamps and work fast.228928 What are you making and what kind of wood are you using? - Will

[Randy Gazda]

My first reaction is that you're over thinking this. I've been gluing up directly from the table saw for years. And I don't think it's possible to squeeze out glue so that you won't get a good glue joint. In my early days, I used extreme clamp pressure and never had a glue joint failure. You only need a very small amount of glue to hold two surfaces that are well fitted to each other.

Mike


I agree, Norm used to talk about "don't use to much pressure", I think tests since then show, unless you are using hydralic clamps, it is impossible to squeeze the glue out of the joint. I have used all the force I can with pipe clamps many times and never had a problem.

[Chris Hedges]

Hank - How will compressed fibers create a poor bond?

Chris

[HANK METZ]

Hank - How will compressed fibers create a poor bond?

Chris

Chris, it impedes the mechanical interlocking of adhesives, sometimes only allowing penetration of two cells or less.

- Beachside Hank

[Clint Baxter]

Surprised that nobody has mentioned a jointer PLANE before now. The flattesurface mating surfaces are, the better. A jointer will always leave a wavy surface due to the way it cuts. The waves may be small but they will be there. A good glue line rip blade will not leave any of those waves,but may leave saw marks instead. Depends on the blade and how well your saw is adjusted. If you take a well tuned and sharp hand plane, however, you can remove any of those marks for the best gluing surface. If you clamp those boards side by side, your board will always remain flat as well

As has already been said, you can't put enough pressure on a hand clamp to squeeze out enough glue to starve the joint.

If plane a slight gap in the center of your joint but the ends are tight together, it will make it much simpler to clamp as well.

Edges straight from a jointer work as do those straight from your table saw. But for the best joint, hit them with the hand plane before glue up


Clint

[frank shic]

Wait wait is the freud glue line blade better than the legendary forrest? Btw agree with the hand plane but i have yet to install my vice after our last move...

[Bruce Page]

Wait wait is the freud glue line blade better than the legendary forrest? Btw agree with the hand plane but i have yet to install my vice after our last move...
Better than WWII? For ripping it is much better.

As for over clamping, the only reason I can see to really crank on the clamp is if you are trying to close a gap. In which case you would have other problems that need addressing.

[Rich Engelhardt]

Would be better to replace the sandpaper with a light block plane I suppose. Or just have the edge's already jointed from the jointer/saw.
A number of people subscribe to the idea of using a sprung joint. That can only be done with a block plane.
Tommy Mac used the technique on one of his shows.
A sprung joint is one where there's a very slight arc between the faces and the clamps draw the edges tight.

I was sort of surprised yesterday to see that the stock counter tops sold by Home Depot use sprung joints on their miters.

I myself don't use a sprung joint. I have a Freud Glue Line rip blade on my contractor saw. I use a full kerf, not a thin kerf blade. The full kerf works just fine for me since I never rip anything thicker than 4/4.

I can't say if it's as good as or better than a Forrrest since I don't have a Forrest.
I do know it was only about 2/3 the price of a Forrest.

[Myk Rian]

I no longer use the jointer for edge jointing glue-ups. I find that my Freud glue line rip blade leaves a ready for glue-up edge finish.
That's all I do. Nothing fancy. Rip it, glue it.

[HANK METZ]

respectful snip...
I can't say if it's as good as or better than a Forrrest since I don't have a Forrest.
I do know it was only about 2/3 the price of a Forrest.

Although Forrest still makes a good blade, it doesn't have the same cachet as it used to, now it seems to be viewed as "neck jewelry" for woodworkers. Freud have bootstrapped themselves up to a quality level on a par, but at a substantial cost savings, and having had both I now favor the convenience of having two Freud's' to one Forrest for the same money, especially when it's resharpen time.

- Beachside Hank

[scott vroom]

Although Forrest still makes a good blade, it doesn't have the same cachet as it used to, now it seems to be viewed as "neck jewelry" for woodworkers. - Beachside Hank

It's one thing to lose cachet, it's another thing to sell a product of diminished quality. Which are you asserting, Hank? The reviews of the Forrest blades are overwhelmingly favorable.

[HANK METZ]

Scott, I'm saying that if some woodworkers could sport their Forrest on a silver chain around their neck, they would.

- Beachside Hank

[Paul McGaha]

I keep a freud glue line rip blade in my table saw pretty much all the time. I agree they put out a great cut that dosent really need to be run thru the jointer. I still tend to sweeten the edges at the jointer though. Usually only takes a couple more minutes.

As for Forrest blades I don't have any but I have a friend of mine (KAB) that sure likes them. I think he'd give up woodworking before he'd give them up.

PHM

[Howard Acheson]

>>>> you do not want to clamp the joint too tightly and squeeze out all of the glue

Actually, PVA adhesive needs to be tightly clamped to develop maximum strength. For example, Titebond recommends

For softwoods (pine, poplar): 100-150 psi
For medium density woods (cherry, soft maple): 150-200 psi
For hardwoods (oak, birch): 200-300 psi

To achieve these pressures, you need to fully tighten a 3/4" pipe clamp.

The bottom line is that it is almost impossible to over-clamp a joint.

[scott vroom]

Scott, I'm saying that if some woodworkers could sport their Forrest on a silver chain around their neck, they would.

- Beachside Hank


Sorry, still not getting what that has to do with blade quality. Sounds more to me like blade envy :)

[HANK METZ]

Scott Vroom said:
...Sounds more to me like blade envy :)

That's always been pretty much the case, it falls into the realm of 8" dado sets are superior to 6" threads- it's about bragging rights while both can plough a 1/4" deep groove with equal quality. :)

- Beachside Hank

[scott vroom]

Scott Vroom said:
...Sounds more to me like blade envy :)

That's always been pretty much the case, it falls into the realm of 8" dado sets are superior to 6" threads- it's about bragging rights while both can plough a 1/4" deep groove with equal quality. :)

- Beachside Hank

ROTFLMAO!!! Thanks, Hank, that made my day :)

[Carl Beckett]

Also, clamp pressure is necessary of course, but you do not want to clamp the joint too tightly and squeeze out all of the glue. I firmly snug the clamps and leave it to dry.

I think this was covered a while back in a woodworking technical article. Conclusion was that there is no such thing as over clamping ( and the more tightly clamped joints were stronger even ).

This is what I have stuck in my brain at least. Maybe Im not remembering right so someone correct me on this

[Dave Zellers]

I think this fits in with this thread re edge preparation and clamping pressure so here goes-

What are peoples thoughts on allowing the glue to 'soak in' before clamping?

It has always seemed to be beneficial to me, especially with porous woods and of course plywood where half the surface is end grain. By the time you get all surfaces coated, the first ones sometimes have soaked up the glue and a second coat is required.

But if you were doing just 2 short board edges, will the bond benefit from applying the glue and then letting them sit for 3-4 minutes before clamping? It seems to me it would, especially with heavy clamping pressure that could 'squeeze out all the glue'?

Wouldn't it be possible to apply glue and instantly put it under 150 lbs of pressure and squeeze it all out?

Me, I've always let it 'soak in' first. Folly?

[Mike Henderson]

Wouldn't it be possible to apply glue and instantly put it under 150 lbs of pressure and squeeze it all out?
Not from my experience. But give it a try with some scrap. I think you'll find that the bond is quite good.

In fact, for anyone who thinks you can squeeze out all the glue, give it a try with some scrap. Take some non-oily wood and glue with PVA glue. Put glue on both surfaces and spread evenly along the surfaces. Then clamp it as tight as you can with whatever clamps you have - pipe clamps, Bessey clamps, steel bar clamps, anything. Let it set for a decent amount of time, then take the two boards out and try to break them at the joint. See if the joint or the wood breaks first. Report back to us.

Mike

[ed vitanovec]

I'm gonna look into the Freud glue line rip blade, sounds like it does a good job. I have been using the Freud Diablo 80 tooth blade for 3 years now and its been great. Since we are talking board glue ups do you all alternate the growth rings from board to board?

[John A langley]

Ed I sure hope they are Thats discussed in Woodwoeking 101 Sarcasm aside, it is a very good practice to alternate the growth rings `

[J.R. Rutter]

Even alternating growth rings isn't a hard and fast rule. Structurally, it is hard to argue against, but aesthetics can be a different matter. It is fine (preferable) if you have an unsupported panel that needs to stay approximately flat. For something like a table top, where an apron can be used to hold the top flat, alternating growth rings just makes for an undulating surface rather than a smooth one. Here it is best to plan for the top to become convex on the top (heart up), and hold it securely in the center of the width so that the edges stay tight. For smaller panels, like for cabinet doors, it is fine to glue up for the most pleasing look.

[Kent A Bathurst]

Although Forrest still makes a good blade, it doesn't have the same cachet as it used to, now it seems to be viewed as "neck jewelry" for woodworkers.

Now....that choice of words is a bit incendiary, if not downright insulting, and completely unnecessary, IMO. :(

[Steve Griffin]

Every single glueup the edge I do is made with the shaper and straight cutter.

100% square, never the slightest saw mark and as tight a joint as possible.

[Cody Colston]

Even alternating growth rings isn't a hard and fast rule. Structurally, it is hard to argue against, but aesthetics can be a different matter. It is fine (preferable) if you have an unsupported panel that needs to stay approximately flat. For something like a table top, where an apron can be used to hold the top flat, alternating growth rings just makes for an undulating surface rather than a smooth one. Here it is best to plan for the top to become convex on the top (heart up), and hold it securely in the center of the width so that the edges stay tight. For smaller panels, like for cabinet doors, it is fine to glue up for the most pleasing look.

It's not a rule at all with me. I glue up panels according to the best grain arrangement, totally ignoring the growth rings.

Even if alternating growth rings helped prevent warping (IMHO, it doesn't) I'd rather have a curved panel than one shaped like a washboard.

If the stock is sufficiently dry for it's environment and the edges are square to each other, no warping should occur anyway. We're talking furniture here, not a PT deck.

Even Norm eventually advised gluing up panels for appearance and ignoring the growth rings.

[scott vroom]

Every single glueup the edge I do is made with the shaper and straight cutter.

100% square, never the slightest saw mark and as tight a joint as possible.

How long are the infeed and outfeed sides of your shaper?

[Steve Griffin]

How long are the infeed and outfeed sides of your shaper?

HI Scott,
My shaper set up is in this thread:
http://www.sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?135238-The-main-reason-to-have-a-shaper&highlight=

Basically a standard 3hp shaper. The index on left and right adds about 4" to table, but that's not that important. A 4 roller feeder negates the need for outfeed table if you catch the board coming out. I've used this set up for 12 or 14'' long boards with no issue.

Every single board coming out of my shop goes through the shaper. It's faster, safer and makes a far better edge than manually feeding wood on a table saw. Plus I don't need to change my table saw blade to the "extra special blade" for finished edges.

[J.R. Rutter]

Even if alternating growth rings helped prevent warping (IMHO, it doesn't) I'd rather have a curved panel than one shaped like a washboard.

I've done some wide panels where we had offcuts from the ends sitting around for a while. Because we glue for best appearance, I have definitely seen that with all growth rings oriented the same way, the panel will cup across the width. Does it matter? Not to me. These parts get held in place by rails or some other framework. My point was that if you don't have anything keeping the panel flat (unsupported), then you better plan for cupping if the EMC changes throughout the year.

[Larry Edgerton]

Although Forrest still makes a good blade, it doesn't have the same cachet as it used to, now it seems to be viewed as "neck jewelry" for woodworkers. Freud have bootstrapped themselves up to a quality level on a par, but at a substantial cost savings, and having had both I now favor the convenience of having two Freud's' to one Forrest for the same money, especially when it's resharpen time.

- Beachside Hank

It is my opinion that this whole Forrest thing is a hngover from the days when they were about the only game in town. When I first started doing this for a living, there were no carbide blades in the lumber yards. HSS, rip, combo, cutoff and planer, any color you wanted as long as it was HSS.

You had to order out if you wanted carbide, no internet, so no access to industrial stuff, so you went to the back of your black and white FWW and called up Forrest. I still have the first one I bought hanging on the wall. Totally wore out, but I was so proud of that blade. They were very expensive at the time, probably more so than they are now.

I would say that the Frued Industrial blades are the equal of Forrest now, but not the crap sold at the Borg. Diablos are throwaway blades, and the quality of cut is not on par.

Then there are all the other companies that the internet has opened up to us. Its a smorgasbord out there these days! Leitz is my new favorite. And FS Tool. And Tenaru thin kerfs. Oh ya, Onscrud {Leitz} Love the net.

Larry

[Chris Fournier]

[QUOTE=HANK METZ;1908499]Scott Vroom said:
...Sounds more to me like blade envy :)

That's always been pretty much the case, it falls into the realm of 8" dado sets are superior to 6" threads- it's about bragging rights while both can plough a 1/4" deep groove with equal quality. :)

- Beachside Hank[/QUOTE


Given identical quality of materials and manufacture an 8" dado is indeed superior to a 6" dado - it's simple cutter geometry.

Can you glue starve a joint? Absolutely. It's all about PSI. Do your build guitars that have 1/10" thick joints? Well then you can certainly starve a glue joint. Are you gluing up a 4" thick bench top? Well you'll never starve that joint unless you have a hydraulic press.

What kind of joint do you want for best results? Well what kind of glue are you using? PVA is the most common amoungst us woodworkers and as good a joint as possible is the answer. Rough? Never. Sprung? Why bother?

Rip glue blades are fast and yield fantastic joints. I've used them for over 20 years and never had a joint fail. In fact most of those joints were invisible.

[HANK METZ]

[QUOTE=HANK METZ;1908499]Scott Vroom said:
...Sounds more to me like blade envy :)

That's always been pretty much the case, it falls into the realm of 8" dado sets are superior to 6" threads- it's about bragging rights while both can plough a 1/4" deep groove with equal quality. :)

- Beachside Hank[/QUOTE


Given identical quality of materials and manufacture an 8" dado is indeed superior to a 6" dado - it's simple cutter geometry.

Respectful snip...

I thought I'd heard all the arguments pro and con about dado cutters but I'm always willing to learn more, so Chris, please explain that statement.
Thanks.

- Beachside Hank

[Bud Millis]

I no longer use the jointer for edge jointing glue-ups. I find that my Freud glue line rip blade leaves a ready for glue-up edge finish.

I go with the above option if it looks good and if I feel that is needs a pass on the jointer it gets one. Haven't had a problem yet.

[HANK METZ]

Now....that choice of words is a bit incendiary, if not downright insulting, and completely unnecessary, IMO. :(

Kent, I stated an opinion based on my observations, experience, and years in this craft, just as you have now stated yours. Opinions are like ships; tied up to a pier, a ship can be a safe one, but that’s not what ships are made for.

- Beachside Hank

[Kent A Bathurst]

Kent, I stated an opinion based on my observations, experience, and years in this craft, just as you have now stated yours. Opinions are like ships; tied up to a pier, a ship can be a safe one, but that’s not what ships are made for.

- Beachside Hank

Your opinions are of course valid - equal to those of every other person here. I offered no opinion on the merits of Forrest or Freud or any other blade. I objected when you commented on the people that own them, rather than voicing an opinion on the product itself. That is what I find inappropriate.

[frank shic]

the blade sharpeners are always impressed when i bring in my forrest in case anyone else needs encouragement!

[HANK METZ]

Your opinions are of course valid - equal to those of every other person here. I offered no opinion on the merits of Forrest or Freud or any other blade. I objected when you commented on the people that own them, rather than voicing an opinion on the product itself. That is what I find inappropriate.

It appears then Kent, my drive- by shot at wry humor plugged you in the sensibilities.
Having given this exchange ample time for any groundswell of support, and finding it lacking, I’d like to go on and ask if you were at a woodworking show and Forrest was giving out t- shirts that read “I’ve got a Forrest WW1… And you don’t” would you take them to task or take the shirt?

Note to Forrest staff; I hereby freely release the above slogan into the public domain, for both profit and non- profit use.

Not taking myself too seriously, I remain – Beachside Hank

Modern Translation of “Once more unto the breach, dear friends“:
Once more into the breach dear friends. Once more, or block the wall up with our English dead. In peacetime there’s nothing that so becomes a man as mildness and humility

[Kent A Bathurst]

It appears then Kent, my drive- by shot at wry humor plugged you in the sensibilities.
Having given this exchange ample time for any groundswell of support, and finding it lacking, I’d like to go on and ask if you were at a woodworking show and Forrest was giving out t- shirts that read “I’ve got a Forrest WW1… And you don’t” would you take them to task or take the shirt?

Note to Forrest staff; I hereby freely release the above slogan into the public domain, for both profit and non- profit use.

Not taking myself too seriously, I remain – Beachside Hank

Modern Translation of “Once more unto the breach, dear friends“:
Once more into the breach dear friends. Once more, or block the wall up with our English dead. In peacetime there’s nothing that so becomes a man as mildness and humility

I don't need any tee-shirts. I don't need any saw blades. I don't need a groundswell of support for my thoughts, which were entirely unrelated to any specific product. You feel your comments were humor. I fail to see that, but fair enough. I'll assume your decision to personalize the conversation - by providing counterpoint to my sig line - is a second version of your "humor". I fail to see that as well, and that is a game I will not play.

Good bye, HANK.

PS - You may be in the wrong forum, but that's not my call.

[Paul McGaha]

I think I'm going to go and buy a Forrest blade. I hear they're really good. Anybody recommend a good ripping blade for stock thicker than 5/4.

PHM

[george wilson]

I have a forrest blade,but it scratches my chest too much when I wear it.

[Kyle Iwamoto]

I have a forrest blade,but it scratches my chest too much when I wear it.

LOL! I wear my Forrest outside my bullet proof vest. Which us Forrest blade owners all should own by now, due to the huge amounts of drive by humor shots.

[Van Huskey]

As others mention I use a Freud glue line rip blade and it is plenty smooth for glue ups.

[frank shic]

I have a forrest blade,but it scratches my chest too much when I wear it.

rofl that's a good one... i can almost hear the rap music blaring in the background as i nick myself silly trying to dance with that thing!

[Mike Henderson]

It appears then Kent, my drive- by shot at wry humor plugged you in the sensibilities.
Having given this exchange ample time for any groundswell of support, and finding it lacking, I’d like to go on and ask if you were at a woodworking show and Forrest was giving out t- shirts that read “I’ve got a Forrest WW1… And you don’t” would you take them to task or take the shirt?

Note to Forrest staff; I hereby freely release the above slogan into the public domain, for both profit and non- profit use.

Not taking myself too seriously, I remain – Beachside Hank

Modern Translation of “Once more unto the breach, dear friends“:
Once more into the breach dear friends. Once more, or block the wall up with our English dead. In peacetime there’s nothing that so becomes a man as mildness and humility
I'll stick my two cents in. As Kent said, you'd do well to stick to making comments about the products and leave "humor" (or lack of it) out of the discussion.

Mike

[Bruce Page]

This thread has run its course.