Back saw chattering

[Bill Stephenson]

Well, here is my first post and I am in need of some good advise. I am new to the world of hand saws and am having trouble with one expensive 14" backsaw saw I recently purchased. The saw was originally filed to perform as a Xcut/rip combination
upon receiving the saw it was chattering a lot on the back stroke when using it to rip. I sent the saw back to the maker & requested that the saw be refiled straight rip. The maker refiled the saw and sent it back.(service was excellent)
The saw now still chatters on the back stroke but not as much. It chatters more as the backstroke reaches the toe area. I have a commercial rip with the same 12 ppi that also chatters but much less. I have recently bought an old disston D-8
that is 5ppi and I performed my first saw filing attempt with it. I filed the disston with about 8 Deg. rake straight rip. The disston cuts without any chatter and I am very satisfied with it's performance. With my limited experience I am hesitant to file my expensive 14" backsaw and need some input as to what can be done to eliminate the chattering on this saw.

[Chris Vandiver]

Define chattering. Bouncing or vibrating(wobble)?

[Jessica Pierce-LaRose]

I would just try and take the weight off the saw a bit on the backstroke. Sometimes with my larger backsaw, the added weight of the steel back keeps it a bit more engaged in the cut on return stroke than would be normal with a lighter saw. Particularly as I'm starting a cut (it's less of a hassle to control as it gets deeper in the cut.) Relieving the weight from the cut helps keep the gullets more clear, too as you get further into the wood, though.

[Jim Koepke]

Bill,

Welcome to the Creek.

Did you mention this to the maker?

I have read that noise on the back stroke is caused by too much set. Even some of my saws without much set rattle on the back stroke if they aren't given a little lift.

I tend to use a bit more set since most of my work is in pine that tends to expand when being cut and will trap the saw if there isn't enough of set.

jtk

[Casey Gooding]

Make sure you aren't dragging the teeth across the wood on the back stroke. This will do nothing other than dull your teeth. Take your time and be careful of your technique. Speed will come in time.

[ray hampton]

Bill,

Welcome to the Creek.

Did you mention this to the maker?

I have read that noise on the back stroke is caused by too much set. Even some of my saws without much set rattle on the back stroke if they aren't given a little lift.

I tend to use a bit more set since most of my work is in pine that tends to expand when being cut and will trap the saw if there isn't enough of set.


jtk

will you call trap a KICK-BACK

[Don Jarvie]

I assume you are not using the backsaw and Disston the same way? The back saw needs to be kept level across the wood. I watched a video from Lie Nielson about using a back saw and it was very helpful.

[Jim Matthews]

I lift my saws slightly, when on the "return" stroke.

I point my index finger in the direction I want to cut, and apply no downward pressure.
The backstoke is only held in place by the weight of the saw. It should be enough to clear sawdust from the kerf.

When cutting tenons or shoulders, I start on the edge nearest to me, and slowly tip the saw down toward level. If you're cutting across the "flat", the saw brings few teeth in contact with a large area.
If you cut across an edge, you engage many teeth in a small area, and the saw has a mechanical advantage. You've heard it before, the idea is to let the saw (rather than muscle) do the work.

If you can get past the shuck and jive, the Woodright's shop (http://www.pbs.org/woodwrightsshop/video/3000/3009.html) has a quick primer on classes of sawcuts.

If you're hearing chattering, the saw is bouncing up and down in the kerf. Lower the angle of attack until the teeth engage enough to cut, not so much that they drag. 12:30 emulates your original task.
If you're hearing a vibrating rattle (left and right as you draw back), your arm is not in alignment with the cut line. 13:30

I find my cutting better if I step back a little from the work, and a bright light helps make that possible.

[Mike Holbrook]

If you are talking about the Gramercy 14" Sash Saw which comes with a combo filling.... or even if you are not. Some of the better backsaws come with thin plates compared to many other saws. As several others have mentioned dragging the teeth on the return stroke will cause these thin plates to vibrate much more than the thicker plates on other saws.

I have the Gramercy Sash backsaw, not only do they come with thin plates they have minimal set to the teeth as well. I love mine as it just seems to melt through wood due to the thin plate and minimal set, but it is more sensitive to being drug and rough handling. I was use to even thinner, flexier Japanese saws with no set so adapting was not that hard.

[Jack Curtis]

Try clamping the wood much closer to the area being cut. If it's hanging in the wind, chatter guaranteed.

[Jim Matthews]

Try clamping the wood much closer to the area being cut. If it's hanging in the wind, chatter guaranteed.

Didn't think of that. That's clever, right there.

[Jim Koepke]

will you call trap a KICK-BACK

Maybe if it was on a table saw. When the blade gets pinched, it won't go forward let alone kick back.

jtk

[ray hampton]

Maybe if it was on a table saw. When the blade gets pinched, it won't go forward let alone kick back.

jtk

I have the saw blade stop by the wood more than ONCE and we wonder why the saw blade set keep changing,to remove the saw require moving the handle up and down

[Bill Stephenson]

Hi everyone, lots great help here. I just was able to check the thread today & and read all responses. I went to the shop & sawed a tenon with the lifting slightly on the back stroke method and reviewed my stance. The chattering and vibration was greatly reduced to a point I probably could live with. I sawed on Beech, Oak & Pine. sawing the Pine produced the least amount of chatter on the back stroke. By the way the saw is not a Gramercy and I prefer not to indicate the brand. I may be expecting to much from this saw due to it's price($200.+) With more experience it may live up to my expectations. Thanks

[Charlie Stanford]

Hi everyone, lots great help here. I just was able to check the thread today & and read all responses. I went to the shop & sawed a tenon with the lifting slightly on the back stroke method and reviewed my stance. The chattering and vibration was greatly reduced to a point I probably could live with. I sawed on Beech, Oak & Pine. sawing the Pine produced the least amount of chatter on the back stroke. By the way the saw is not a Gramercy and I prefer not to indicate the brand. I may be expecting to much from this saw due to it's price($200.+) With more experience it may live up to my expectations. Thanks

I have a 1970s vintage Spear & Jackson (bought in the 1980s) that I picked up for less than $20. It doesn't chatter, never did chatter, and my technique most decidedly would not bring a tear to the late Jim Kingshott's eyes. Unless you are totally ham-fisting the thing I'd get rid of the saw that is the subject of this post. These expensive tools often leave one with the feeling "it must be me." Well, maybe sometimes it is. I don't think that's the case here. From what I've seen with progressive pitch and ultra-thin plate, blah, blah, blah, I think it's all too tricked up. A blue-collar saw will work fine without all the fuss, primping, preciousness, and self-recrimination. The blade just needs to be straight, unpitted, and capable of staying sharp for a reasonable amount of time. A comfy handle is a help. I actually like the feel and hang of a Spear & Jackson though many describe them as ugly. I guess it is, though in a thoroughly workmanlike English way.

[Bill Stephenson]

Charlie somewhere in my gut I think you may be on target. I notice that the Lie Nielsen back saws with the exception of one, have thicker or standard plates. You have made me feel better about this. Future purchases will be more conservative.

[Jonathan McCullough]

Put some candle wax on the saw plate and see if it doesn't make a huge difference. Draw it all around in loops on the sides. It'll lubricate the saw as it travels though the kerf, and keeps wood pitch from building up. Give it nice even strokes and don't let the teeth hit the wood on the backstroke. With some practice you'll appreciate the heavier spine and what is likely to be a more ergonomic handle.

[Jim Koepke]

I have the saw blade stop by the wood more than ONCE and we wonder why the saw blade set keep changing,to remove the saw require moving the handle up and down

One thing that came to my notice is with taper ground saws it is easy to start sawing with just the toe of the saw and then when a longer stroke is attempted the starting kerf isn't wide enough for the back of the saw. DAMHIKT!

This especially gets amplified with wood that is moving while it is being sawn.

jtk

[Chris Vandiver]

One thing that came to my notice is with taper ground saws it is easy to start sawing with just the toe of the saw and then when a longer stroke is attempted the starting kerf isn't wide enough for the back of the saw. DAMHIKT!

This especially gets amplified with wood that is moving while it is being sawn.

jtk


The thickness of the saw should be uniform at the toothline, from heel to toe.