Agazzani B-24/24 vs. MM-24

[Mark Davis PDX]

Let me know what you think.

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0AgmGAGH-3ZildE9oNVZNckNVOC05ZTBkdFNDeHVKSXc

Regards,
-mark

[Rick Fisher]

Interesting spread sheet ..

I was surprised to read that the Aggazani had an Aluminum Table ? If that is true, it would push me to the MM-24, even if it is $1000 more.

I have an old SCM -630 with a Cast Iron table and use a magnetic feather board on it all the time.. I would find an Aluminum table way too irritating if that is true..

The old SCM-630 is a 24" saw but has only 13" of resaw height.. I restored it and can tell you that the table is an absolute beast (Heavy) ..

I would also take a CEG motor any day of the week.. I have several and also some Baldor.. End of the day, they are both good motor manufacturers.. My Griggio Jointer has a 4hp CEG motor, as does my Dust collector.. Parts are available from CEG in North America.. They are stout, industrial motors.

If the Aggie has an Aluminum table.. I would go MM-24.. Your only buying one.. you will never look back.. My Old SCM has a 5hp Baldor motor (single phase) .. I have resawn 2x12 Sapelli.. 2x10 Maple.. 2x10 Afromosia .. No issue at all.. IMO .. 5hp is overkill but nice for a 24" Saw.

[ian maybury]

Eagle have been accurate and comprehensive on the few occasions I dealt with them, and are renowned for doing a good job. That said they don't seem to be a heavily resourced high overhead operation, and it can take a little time to get responses. Presuming no more (the website is presently being updated) I wouldn't let a few minor admin hiccoughs get in the way of my saw choice.

The B-24 has a cast iron table (see the photo below) unless there's been a very recent (and unlikely sounding) change.

The website for Agazzani in Italy is www.agazzani.it (http://www.agazzani.it) - they list spec sheets. The NRA 600 bandsaw is the Euopean designation for the B-24, although there's only a few minor differences.

I have an NRA 600 and after a year of mixed but not overly demanding use could not be happier.

Eagle sent the following including the pictures to me in August 2010, there could be some changes since. The second list of saws are high re-saw capacity US market models:

AGAZZANI BANDSAW SPECIFICATIONS:

MODELS: B-24 B-20 B-18
List Price $3,395 $2,795 $2,395
Footrpint at base 34” x 16” 29” x 16” 28” x 14 3/4”
Maximum resaw height 16.75” 13.50” 13”
Maximum cutting width 22.75” 19” 17 1/4”
Blade range 1/4” to 1 1/2” 1/4” to 1 1/4” 1/4” to 1”

Table size 23.25” x 32” 19.4” x 26.5” 17” x 24.5”
Weight 660 lbs. 474lbs. 386 lbs.

Overall height 83.50” 76” 75 1/4”
Overall width 44.50” 34” 33”
Overall depth 24.75” 22” 22”


MODELS: B-24/24 B-20/20 B-18/18
List Price $4,295 $3,695 $3,295
Motor 4.8HP 4.8HP 4.8HP
Voltage 230v 230v 230v
Phase 1Ø or 3Ø 1Ø or 3Ø 1Ø
Amps 22.5 22.5 22.5

Footrpint at base 34 3/4” x 17 3/4” 29 3/4” x 17 1/2” 28” x 17 1/2”
Maximum resaw height 24” 21” 18 1/2”
Maximum cutting width 22 3/4” 19” 17 1/2”
Blade range 1/4” to 1 1/2” 1/4” to 1 1/4” 1/4” to 1”

Table size 28 3/4” x 23 1/4” 23 1/2” x 19 1/2” 23 1/2” x 19 1/2”
Weight 694 lbs. 551lbs. 474 lbs.

Overall height 89” 83” 80”
Overall width 43” 35” 33 1/2”
Overall depth 27” 24 1/2” 24”

228878228879228880

ian

[Richard McComas]

I have a B-24 bought in, Jan 2010 it has a cast iron table.

[Stephen Cherry]

I've got an Agazzani 24, and it works great. I read a lot of the threads with people having bandsaw problems, and scratch my head and wonder why. The Afazzani has basically just cut whatever is put in front of the blade. It's made OK, but not nearly as well as my inca saw. But it's a bandsaw, so that's OK.

As far as the website goes, it seems to me that if the eagle tools guy wants to sell saws, and he does not want to answer a thousand and one questions, he should put up a website. Eagle tools used to have a better site than it does now. In todays world, there is no excuse for not having this type of information on the web-- if you want to sell your product. Companies should look at the Griz if they need to see how this is done.

As for the price, I paid about half that amount, and had a great assortment of blades thrown in.

[Ken Fitzgerald]

When I was in the bandsaw market, I exchanged emails with author/woodworker Mark Duginske. I was considering Agazzani and MM. His repy was you can't go wrong with either of those Italian made bandsaws.

I bought an MM-16 but for a very personal reason that had absolutely nothing to do with the bandsaw but with the company's generosity.

[Mike Hollingsworth]

As far as the website goes, it seems to me that if the eagle tools guy wants to sell saws, and he does not want to answer a thousand and one questions, he should put up a website. Eagle tools used to have a better site than it does now. In todays world, there is no excuse for not having this type of information on the web-- if you want to sell your product. Companies should look at the Griz if they need to see how this is done.

Ironically, Eagle was sole distributor for MiniMax until about ten years ago. MiniMax probably expected a website.

[David Kumm]

When I was in the bandsaw market, I exchanged emails with author/woodworker Mark Duginske. I was considering Agazzani and MM. His repy was you can't go wrong with either of those Italian made bandsaws.

I bought an MM-16 but for a very personal reason that had absolutely nothing to do with the bandsaw but with the company's generosity.

Years ago I had the same discussion with Mark about ACM vs Aggi, vs MM. At the end he said " of course none are like the old cast iron saws". Got my interest and three CI saws later I have to agree. The MM and Aggi are the top of the steel food chain though. Dave

[Van Huskey]

First, you have put a LOT of time in your analysis, more than I would have and I tend to be a bandsaw nut. I do think you have gotten a little too deep and potentially overwhelmed in the spreadsheet approach, while looking for the prefect saw. Two examples, the table on the Agazzani is not aluminum unless this is some bizarre very recent change and second you talk about the speed of the table tilt but never discuss, though you may know, that the assembly is very different and will effect your use far more than the speed if you actually tilt the table a lot. You are interested in frame deflection numbers which is valid, however unless you can find a test done with both saws using the same type of blade and verification that the same tension or absolute pressure is used that data is useless, I know of no test for these two machines.

Next, I don't have any idea what you plan to use the saw for, you are talking about two serious vertical resaw bandsaws but you give significant space in your spreadsheet to more narrow contour cutting blades. If you need 20+ inches of resaw height my suggestion would be to buy a saw based solely on this function and if you need contour cutting ability consider a 2nd dedicated machine. In essense I would like to know what you plan to do with the saw.

In the end these two machines are both excellent and capable, if I were choosing it would almost certainly be the MM but that is based stringly on my experience with my own MM bandsaw. It is unlikely that you would be unhappy with either saw. If you are at all interested in the used market you can buy a lot of used bandsaw for that type of money, one could get a great monster US built cast saw, a power feeder and a second saw for contour cutting along with a selection of top quality blades for the price of these saws new. I am not a cast for the sake of cast person when it comes to bandsaws, properly built and balanced a steel saw can be every bit as good as a cast saw since a bandsaw's parts operate at relatively low speeds and don't benefit nearly as much from the vibration damping qualities of cast iron. The major hunks of metal in a BS are there mainly for strength.

Finally, I would like to know what your planned uses for the saw are, that has a lot to do what what saw or saws I and most people would recommend.

[Mark Davis PDX]

Purchased a Mini-Max MM-24 3-phase. When I started this exercise, I thought it would be an Agazzani B-24/24.

I'm sure both saws are great.

Now...what accessories should I buy? Incra V-27? Aigner stuff? Favorite infeed and outfeed tables? Anyone use rollers?

Anyone modify the dust collection system on the MM-24 to accept two hoses?

What are your favorite blades? I was thinking Woodmaster CT 1.3tpi and a perhaps a Diemaster.

Regards, Mark

[Van Huskey]

Purchased a Mini-Max MM-24 3-phase. When I started this exercise, I thought it would be an Agazzani B-24/24.

I'm sure both saws are great.

Now...what accessories should I buy? Incra V-27? Aigner stuff? Favorite infeed and outfeed tables? Anyone use rollers?

Anyone modify the dust collection system on the MM-24 to accept two hoses?

What are your favorite blades? I was thinking Woodmaster CT 1.3tpi and a perhaps a Diemaster.

Regards, Mark

Congrats on the MM24, it is a serious machine.

I wouldn't bother with a higher end miter gauge, if you have any blade drift at all the miter slot no longer lines up, very few if any modern bandsaws allow for table adjustment.

Your need for infeed/outfeed support will be dictated by the type of cuts and how often you do them.

If you plan on cutting veneer on a regular basis the Laguna Driftmaster fence is the way to go and their belt feeder (Comatic) that fits onto the DM fence is a luxury I wish I could afford.

The blades depend on what you plan to do, my favorite for veneer is the Laguna Resaw King with the Lenox Trimaster in second, I like the Lenox Woodmaster CT but find it to be third in finish quality but it may be the best general resaw and ripping blade of the three. If you want a second tier blade for ripping and resawing (board splitting not veneer) the Woodmaster B beats the Diemaster.

Some of my general thoughts on BS blades: http://www.sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?149862-Lets-talk-bandsaw-blades!&highlight=lets+talk+bandsaw

The first blade I would order for that saw would be a Resaw King and let it be the backbone of my resawing and or ripping efforts. I am a
proponent of multiple bandsaws so my MM is just used for resawing but if you plan to use it as a general purpose bandsaw you have to be careful going with too small a blade since the wheels are flat. I don't like anything smaller than 1/4" as they get touchy to track but 1/8" can be done.

[Mark Davis PDX]

Great thread on bandsaw blades Van, thanks!

Where do you guys buy from Aigner stuff from? I'd like to duplicate the setup shown in the attached photo (except not the Agazzani :-)

230115

[Van Huskey]

Felder and Simantech carries a lot of Aigner but I haven't compared prices, it is all expensive. That Aigner setup would be over $1k I would guess, at that point if resawing is your thing I would definately look at a feeder instead. Although not the cheapest by any stretch the absolute coolest feeder system that I have seen is the Laguna feeder designed to fit on their Drift Master fence and is probably the best veneer cutting system (along with their Resaw King blade) I have ever seen, for a vertical bandsaw that is.

Check out the video on this page: http://www.lagunatools.com/accessories/Power-Feeders/Laguna-Power-Feeder#

It is based on the Comatic AF20 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BxlohzqXcdo&feature=relmfu

[John Schumer]

I just bought an Agazzani from Jesse at Eagle, I could not be happier with the entire process.
I compared it with the MM, Laguna and Felder,
For me, the Agazzani was the obvious choice.
The saw arrived in a 1/2" plywood crate from CA to NY without incident, arrived to me with cheaper freight cost than he quoted me originally!
I personally would rather talk to a human on the phone, who uses the saw, rather than just read about it on a website.
Jesse spent a couple hours on the phone with me over the span of a few weeks, while I decided which model to purchase.
He then sent me every photo I wanted, of every detail on the saw, I was even given a few peoples numbers to talk to, regarding the saw.
This saw makes #5 in my Bandsaw stable, I have 4 vintage CI machines as well, Two Walker Turner, Oliver and a Delta.

Yea, Eagles Website is pretty lame, But I got to talk to some knowledgable people in a few hours.
Jesse always called me after store hours, and on weekends, on his own time!

Just Saying.
John

[Mark Davis PDX]

John- Did you look at the spreadsheet? I am convinced that in a lots of ways the MM-24 is a superior saw. I certainly went into this thinking I would buy an Agazzani.

MM over Agazzani:
1. It's built better...in many many ways...
2. I found the personalized emails and phone calls much better with MM than Jesse @ Eagle.
3. I feel the tire design is superior at MM. I don't want to deal with sending back a 60lb wheel when the vulcanized rubber fails.
4. The long term support seems less risky with MM
5. The spare parts situation is better with MM.
6. You get a more recent saw from MM
7. SCM actually has service technicians in every state to service MM; there is no one for Agazzani.
8. The chain & sprocket table movement is supposedly less prone to problems w/dust vs. rack & pinion
9. You get a 7.5Hp motor on the 3-phase version of MM.
10. You get a better CEG motor vs. Baldor on Agazzani.
11. The weight is much much higher, but I guess that is related to the fact that the MM is constructed more stringently.
12. MM has a full cast fence
13. MM has a better guidepost
14. Better drift adjustment

The Agazzani is $1k less expensive, has 2 vs. 1 dust ports, and looks nicer however.

For me, the data points to the MM over the Agazzani. I understand Jesse is big on non-data items, such a 'feel' of the machine...but that is difficult for me to look at objectively.

Mark

[ian maybury]

Both by all accounts are excellent saws, and both enjoy loyal followings which suggests that both deliver.

I'm wary of taking paper based comparisons beyond a certain point though. When the 'courtship' is over and it's down to daily living reality has a way of bringing into focus subtle issues we never think of when buying a machine from a distance without a lot of experience. That's when you find out if your machine is by a good maker.

The market is for example full of equipment that is expressly designed to tick the boxes of a spec sheet, but cuts corners in other ways. It's hard to quantify design/engineering integrity, but good kit is in a sense trustworthy or robust in its performance. It quietly gets on with what it's supposed to without undue fussiness, and problems are notable by their absence....

ian

[John Schumer]

Hey Mark,
Yes, I saw your research, nicely done!
I made my decision to buy the Agazzani, because it was right for me.
My decision was based on actual use of the machines in question.
I went to a gentleman's shop where I was allowed to use his Felder FB600 for a few hours,
I then got to use a MM, a Laguna and finally an Agazzani.
They all cut wood, that's for sure!
In my opinion, and the use of all machines, I preferred the Agazzani.
As far as all your info, I am not sure where you got it all, but here is some corrected info for you:
-The Agazzani does not have a Baldor Motor, it has an Italian made SEIMEC motor, Although I wouldn't scoff at a USA built Baldor Motor!
-Vulcanized tires? I have 2 bandsaws that are over 60 years old with original vulcanized tires that are still in operation, and the tires are like new.
-Fence will adjust more than adequate for drift, but I have no drift on this saw with a 1" Lenox CT CM blade.
-I am not concerned with service or parts availability, We, you and I, both bought high end saws, They should last a few months at least!!
The rest of the spreadsheet is purely personal speculation, as I said, I went with what cut best in my personal use of the machines.

I don't want to turn this into a pissing match, "my saw is better than yours"
I just wanted to point out a few correct points to anyone following.

John

[Van Huskey]

Before this becomes a Ford vs Chevy vs Dodge thread lets keep in mine Mark has made his decision and he is in the most precarious and probably the most likely to defend time, he has laid his money down but doesn't have a saw yet. There are not worlds of difference between any of the Italian saws and despite the fact I am a MM fan when it comes to their "resaw" bandsaws I think the "traditional" 24" Agazzani (16-17" of resaw) is the best deal in Italian saws, Laguna has the best guides and Felder probably has the best long term support. None of these saws are perfect but all of them are excellent and short of getting the rare lemon, owners of any of the 4 will probably be willing to defend their saw and purchase choice!

[Mark Davis PDX]

Hey Mark,
Yes, I saw your research, nicely done!
I made my decision to buy the Agazzani, because it was right for me.
My decision was based on actual use of the machines in question.
I went to a gentleman's shop where I was allowed to use his Felder FB600 for a few hours,
I then got to use a MM, a Laguna and finally an Agazzani.
They all cut wood, that's for sure!
In my opinion, and the use of all machines, I preferred the Agazzani.
As far as all your info, I am not sure where you got it all, but here is some corrected info for you:
-The Agazzani does not have a Baldor Motor, it has an Italian made SEIMEC motor, Although I wouldn't scoff at a USA built Baldor Motor!
-Vulcanized tires? I have 2 bandsaws that are over 60 years old with original vulcanized tires that are still in operation, and the tires are like new.
-Fence will adjust more than adequate for drift, but I have no drift on this saw with a 1" Lenox CT CM blade.
-I am not concerned with service or parts availability, We, you and I, both bought high end saws, They should last a few months at least!!
The rest of the spreadsheet is purely personal speculation, as I said, I went with what cut best in my personal use of the machines.

I don't want to turn this into a pissing match, "my saw is better than yours"
I just wanted to point out a few correct points to anyone following.

John

Hi John-

I wouldn't have spent all that time comparing Agazzani and MM if I didn't think they were potentially the two best saws for me (and on the market in this size/config ie. new and not an old Olivier, etc)...Both are obviously excellent saws...I actually started out thinking, based on all the forums, that the Agazzani would be better...and was surprised by the much of the data. I will have to check on the motor, thanks for that...I took the tire wear timeline data from Jesse, but certainly light use could dictate a much longer life. Enjoy your Agazzani -- it's an awesome saw.

-mark

[Mark Davis PDX]

Both by all accounts are excellent saws, and both enjoy loyal followings which suggests that both deliver.

Absolutely, Ian.


I'm wary of taking paper based comparisons beyond a certain point though. When the 'courtship' is over and it's down to daily living reality has a way of bringing into focus subtle issues we never think of when buying a machine from a distance without a lot of experience. That's when you find out if your machine is by a good maker.

I agree.


The market is for example full of equipment that is expressly designed to tick the boxes of a spec sheet, but cuts corners in other ways. It's hard to quantify design/engineering integrity, but good kit is in a sense trustworthy or robust in its performance. It quietly gets on with what it's supposed to without undue fussiness, and problems are notable by their absence....

I have no idea what you are getting at here :), but that's OK. :) You were right on target on the other points....

-mark

[Mark Davis PDX]

I was surprised to read that the Aggazani had an Aluminum Table ? If that is true, it would push me to the MM-24, even if it is $1000 more.

That was my mistake (there are likely more) -- the Agazzani has an Aluminum body on the fence...with cast-iron clamps...the spreadsheet is updated.

Regards, -mark

[Mark Davis PDX]

Before this becomes a Ford vs Chevy vs Dodge thread lets keep in mine Mark has made his decision and he is in the most precarious and probably the most likely to defend time, he has laid his money down but doesn't have a saw yet.

Hi Van- I got hit with an unexpected delay...My 7.5HP 3-phase MM-24 is not coming in for a month now!! The 3-phase MM-24s they have in stock are 5HP, not 7.5HP...Ahhh! Why anyone would get a 5HP model when it is the same price as a 7.5HP model is BEYOND ME.

-mark

[Van Huskey]

Hi Van- I got hit with an unexpected delay...My 7.5HP 3-phase MM-24 is not coming in for a month now!! The 3-phase MM-24s they have in stock are 5HP, not 7.5HP...Ahhh! Why anyone would get a 5HP model when it is the same price as a 7.5HP model is BEYOND ME.

-mark

I agree, one my 1hp per 4 inches of resaw rule of thumb "requires" at least 6hp!!! I can see it with single phase since there could be circuit limits in a lot of single phase locations (hobby shops) but 3 ph locations rarely would be stumped by this level of ampacity in their circuits.

[Richard McComas]

Hi Van- I got hit with an unexpected delay...My 7.5HP 3-phase MM-24 is not coming in for a month now!! The 3-phase MM-24s they have in stock are 5HP, not 7.5HP...Ahhh! Why anyone would get a 5HP model when it is the same price as a 7.5HP model is BEYOND ME.

-markPerhaps it for people who don't want to have to run new wiring. My Agazzani with the 4.8 hp required a 50 amp circuit. I run off a phase converter and happened to already have a 50 amp circuit, but had I went with a 7.5 hp motor I probably would have to run a new circuit which I think some people may not want to deal with.

[Mark Davis PDX]

Perhaps it for people who don't want to have to run new wiring. My Agazzani with the 4.8 hp required a 50 amp circuit. I run off a phase converter and happened to already have a 50 amp circuit, but had I went with a 7.5 hp motor I probably would have to run a new circuit which I think some people may not want to deal with.

I was told by Jesse that the current B-24/24 needs a 30A circuit and that 40A was ideal..you must have something even bigger? Startup current spike is also factored in..and depends on their capacitor choices...at last 1-phase.

-mark

[Richard McComas]

I was told by Jesse that the current B-24/24 needs a 30A circuit and that 40A was ideal..you must have something even bigger? Startup current spike is also factored in..and depends on their capacitor choices...at last 1-phase.

-markJesse recommended a 50 amp for my machine. He did say it takes a lot of start up amps to get it running.