quick question about SideWinder router lifts

[Wayne Jolly]

Can they be used without the sidewinder attached?

I am considering the Incra Sidewinder lift (among others) to install into my table saw extension table. I know that I also want to build a separate router table in the near future and would like to know if a sidewinder could easily be moved from table to table easily. Don't ask my why I would want to do this because I honestly don't really know right now, but it would be good to know what my options are.

It looks like all I would have to do is lift the router out one table, loosen one set screw to detach the cable, and drop it into the other table. Is that it? If the cable is detached, would I still have full control from above the table controls like other lifts, or is all vertical movement controlled by the side crank?

Thanks,

Wayne

[Cyrus Brewster 7]

I do not believe you can take the cable off and still have full function. The crank is for your fine adjustments.

BTW, this lift is made by Woodpeckers but Incra puts their own plate on it for use with their magnetic inserts.

If you want to swap the lift between tables (I am not sure why you would want to) check out the PRLV2 from Incra. It is the same lift but with a thumb wheel adjustment instead of the cable. If you decide down the road that moving 30+ lbs between two table is not going to happen, you can get a sidewinder conversion kit directly from Woodpeckers.

I have the original PRL and added the sidewinder to it. I would not want to use a lift without it. (you will definitely be hearing other opinions about the sidewinder - of course)

[Wayne Jolly]

Cyrus,

I knew that the Incra is made by Woodpeckers, but chose the Incra specifically for the magnetic inserts. There is no way I would be able to find that special wrench when I needed it.

As for the SideWinder, from the pictures it looks like the cable is connected to the lift with a simple coupler. Loosen one set screw and it looks like it would just slip off. I just don't know if it would then just be a "normal" lift with controls on the top of the plate. The description of the crank add-on for the PRL-V2 sounds more like some major surgery to the lift (See the quote below) and once installed it won't work well without the crank if it even works at all. It does retain the same top plate so it might. One thing they DO mention is that the locking mechanism is moved to the crank. I think I will try to contact Woodpeckers and ask them.

The thing is, it sounds like it could be advantageous to have the ability to raise (or lower) the bit while the router is running. I have never had a lift, but there have been several occasions where I wished I could tweak the bit height without having to shut the router down, crawl under the table, make an adjustment, fire it back up just to find that I'm still juuuuuuust a tad off the right setting. The thumb wheel seems like a gimmick to me as it could be covered by the workpiece, sled, fingerboard, etc. But the crank would be accessible all the time. btw, the very first thing that I thought when I saw the pictures of the PRL-V2 is "Man! That thing sure has a lot of holes in it." :D

Well, back to researching for now.

Thanks,

Wayne


This kit replaces an existing PRL-V2's gear box, lift rod, and lift nut with a different lift screw assembly and a side crank that's installed on your router table stand or cabinet

[Cyrus Brewster 7]

Wayne,

With the Sidewinder lift there would be no way to adjust it from the top if the cable was removed.

The thumb wheel is really not a gimmick. this is just the way the PRLV2 works. Other lifts use a removable crank. The holes for the crank would also be covered by what you mentioned.

As I stated earlier, I have the original Woodpeckers PRL. I added the Sidewinder accessory for exactly the reasons you stated - and then some. It is really great for making stopped dados. I can come up to my desired depth in 1/16" increments with one turn of the crank (I opted for the 1/16" thread).

Some on SMC members will shoot the Sidewinder down completely. There is one member in particular who flat out says it is poorly engineered and flat out is a bad product. Because he is highly experienced and I truly respect his opinion, I may not have purchased it had I read what he had to say about it. However, I cannot say enough about how much smoother and easier my lift is to use vs using the supplied removable crank. The only better way to adjust bit height would be with a step motor attached to the lift screw - which some have done.

If you do not go with the Sidewinder/PRLV2, check out the Masterlift II. I have not used it but I guarantee that I would be happy with it also. I have yet to hear a complaint about it.

[Alan Schaffter]

I'll step forward since I'm the one who doesn't think much of the Sidewinder. Don't get me wrong, it is a heavy-duty well machined device and will work super, but . . . . only if mounted just right. Mounting options are VERY limited. If your cabinet is too wide, too deep or you want to mount the crank lower or in a different location, or if you have NYW or other cabinet with framing and drawers on each side, it will be very difficult to mount the sidewinder so it works well without major surgery on the cabinet.

The instructions, which you can download from the Woodpecers site illustrate how the flex cable must be routed. WP says "Woodpeckers® Side Winder can be installed in most router tables with a standard 9¼ x 11¾ opening and a side panel mounting surface no more than 19" away as in the side of a cabinet or router table stand." But, frankly I think 19" is a big stretch. The flex cable is too short and too stiff to use on my standard NYW table (I tried a beta). I am a REALLY BIG fan of WP- I have one of their lifts, DP table, and a few other widgets, but I think the SW was a miss.

[Wayne Jolly]

Thanks for the info guys. You have made it just sOOoo much easier to decide which lift to get (he said in his most sarcastic voice ;)).

I started my search for a lift about a month ago and (being a ex-techie) had decided on the MLCS Pro-Lift with all the neat gadgets on it. But the lack of reviews on it, and the lack of support for the 3HP routers were very telling indeed so I started looking for something else. I don't have a 3HP router (yet??), but I would also like to keep my options open. I have been looking at the Incra Mast-R-Lift II and the PRL-V2, and I actually had an Incra Mast-R-Lift II ordered until I found out that delivery was two months out so I cancelled the order. The biggest problem with the PRL-V2 with sidewinder is the cost. That extra $100 for the side crank puts the cost upwards of $450 after all is said and done.

Then I started looking at the sidewinders again. At the moment, my router table is in the right extension on my table saw, but I have decided that I am going to build a separate router table. I haven't decided whether I am just going to build a basic router table or go Norm and build one of his style yet, but this is what prompted the question about disconnecting the side mechanism and moving the router from one station to another. After all, when I build the router table I will still have the hole in my table saw extension so I just HAVE to do something with it.

I guess I could make some modifications to the extension table and use it for something else. I don't know what just yet, but maybe something like a place to mount my mortising machine when drilling mortises. That might be too heavy but I could beef up the table to accommodate it, or maybe use it to mount a dovetail jig or somesuch. I could always just fill the hole too.

Anyway, thanks for making my decision so much easier. :confused:

Wayne

[Cyrus Brewster 7]

I'll step forward since I'm the one who doesn't think much of the Sidewinder. Don't get me wrong, it is a heavy-duty well machined device and will work super, but . . . . only if mounted just right. Mounting options are VERY limited. If your cabinet is too wide, too deep or you want to mount the crank lower or in a different location, or if you have NYW or other cabinet with framing and drawers on each side, it will be very difficult to mount the sidewinder so it works well without major surgery on the cabinet.

The instructions, which you can download from the Woodpecers site illustrate how the flex cable must be routed. WP says "Woodpeckers® Side Winder can be installed in most router tables with a standard 9¼ x 11¾ opening and a side panel mounting surface no more than 19" away as in the side of a cabinet or router table stand." But, frankly I think 19" is a big stretch. The flex cable is too short and too stiff to use on my standard NYW table (I tried a beta). I am a REALLY BIG fan of WP- I have one of their lifts, DP table, and a few other widgets, but I think the SW was a miss.

Alan,

When you put it that way, you make a great point. I guess you really would have to design your table around the cable, but this is pretty much what I did. And yes, a Norm style table would have a hard time being a Norm style table since you would lose a couple of drawers to compensate for the placement of the cable.

I guess the reason I like it so much (the Sidewinder attachment this is), is that the original PRL did not come with it. It was an option that worked for me. And after using it for more than a year, I feel the lift would be lacking if I had to give it up. I have my table top on the large Woodpeckers frame so I did not lose much storage.

BTW, it was not my intention to call you out at all. I was just informing the OP that there were a few people, whose opinions should merit some listening too, that disagree with my opinion. Thanks for all of the other tips and info you have given out freely here.

[Alan Schaffter]

Alan,

BTW, it was not my intention to call you out at all. I was just informing the OP that there were a few people, whose opinions should merit some listening too, that disagree with my opinion. Thanks for all of the other tips and info you have given out freely here.

No problem, you did good, that is why I followed up with some more details. I think you are spot on with your recommendation about building the table around the cable (and support arm). I personally would really miss my motor drive!

Wayne, since you were also considering the MLCS motorized rig, consider something like my mod. It was pretty simple to do. I used a 120V 1/20 hp bidirectional gear motor I got from the Surplus Center for about $25 (prices can be all over the place). It has a no-load output of 160 RPM, which works just about right with the 32 TPI leadscrew on my WP lift. Selection of output RPM isn't critical, but should be based on the lifts leadscrew pitch and how fast you want the lift to move. I modified a stock Lowes coupling to connect it directly to the bottom of the lift leadscrew. I wired the motor to a center off, double throw paddle switch I got at Radio Shack.

With a little ingenuity you can add your own crank to most lifts that have a leadscrew with an accessible end. Add a couple of right angle gear boxes, and you can locate the crank anywhere. Right angle gearboxes, even mini-ones can get a bit expensive, but a $12 (currently listed for $20) HF right angle drill chuck will work fine! :D

http://www.harborfreight.com/media/catalog/product/cache/1/image/9df78eab33525d08d6e5fb8d27136e95/i/m/image_15081.jpg

[Wayne Jolly]

Thanks everyone.

Alan, I would consider motorizing a lift but it seems like you would have to have a lift that was motorizable in the first place. Just from reading some of the info about the lifts, the PRL-V2 in particular, it doesn't seem like it lends itself to motorizing very well. The only reason I say that is the description of the side crank add-on to the PRL-V2. There are some major components of the lift that have to be replaced including the transmission and a couple of other parts. I just wish there was some place close by that I could go and compare a few of them side-by-side. I think I need to get a list of specific questions together and ask the manufacturers.

Wayne

[Alan Schaffter]

Thanks everyone.

Alan, I would consider motorizing a lift but it seems like you would have to have a lift that was motorizable in the first place. Just from reading some of the info about the lifts, the PRL-V2 in particular, it doesn't seem like it lends itself to motorizing very well. The only reason I say that is the description of the side crank add-on to the PRL-V2. There are some major components of the lift that have to be replaced including the transmission and a couple of other parts. I just wish there was some place close by that I could go and compare a few of them side-by-side. I think I need to get a list of specific questions together and ask the manufacturers.

Wayne

You would either need the older PRL or a Sidewinder and remove the cable. It might be possible to attach a coupling to the V2 but it would likely be limited to 3/4" of travel if it still had the thumbwheel and gear box. It looks like a coupler could be added to a Mast-R-Lift.

[Larry Browning]

I don't have a 3HP router (yet??), but I would also like to keep my options open.
Since you are going to be in the market for a new router for your table, how about considering the Triton? It has the lift built in! You can get it for about the same price as the lift alone, and it is a very nice router. Just one more option for you to consider.

[Mike Goetzke]

Wayne - I have a PRLV2 in my TS wing. I bought one of the first ones and didn't like the limited adjustment with the thumbwheel so added the sidewinder. Why not spend some time and build a router cabinet in your TS wing? (these are pictures before I upgraded to the V2)

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v212/mbg/Unisaw%20Cabinet/th_IMG_0906_3_1.jpg (http://smg.photobucket.com/albums/v212/mbg/Unisaw%20Cabinet/?action=view&current=IMG_0906_3_1.jpg)
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v212/mbg/Unisaw%20Cabinet/th_IMG_0902_1_1.jpg (http://smg.photobucket.com/albums/v212/mbg/Unisaw%20Cabinet/?action=view&current=IMG_0902_1_1.jpg)

here is one shot I have of the sidewinder:

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v212/mbg/My%20Tools/Incra/PRL-V2%20Crank%20Mod/th_IMG_1424.jpg (http://smg.photobucket.com/albums/v212/mbg/My%20Tools/Incra/PRL-V2%20Crank%20Mod/?action=view&current=IMG_1424.jpg)


Mike

[Alan Schaffter]

Mike, nice installation.

Wayne, I think if you go with a Sidewinder, Mike's horizontal mounting of the crank is the best way to go- it eliminates the last 90 degr. bend in the flex cable, probably makes the intermediate sleeve bearing unnecessary, operates more smoothly, and is easier to mount in a solid cabinet. Mike will need to tell us if he still lost the use of a drawer and how far from the plate he was able to mount the crank.

The limited range of the thumb wheel has been a complaint of others. I know full range isn't technically needed because you are supposed to get it close with the lift rod, but I think they could/should have designed V2 so the thumb wheel can be used for full-range adjustment.

[Alan Lightstone]

The limited range of the thumb wheel has been a complaint of others. I know full range isn't technically needed because you are supposed to get it close with the lift rod, but I think they could/should have designed V2 so the thumb wheel can be used for full-range adjustment.
I know. That always bugs me on mine.

I'm seriously considering adding the sidewinder, but I have side drawers that I'm concerned might be compromised. I might install the crank on the front door, but it's polycarbonate, so that would lose some visibility.

[Mike Goetzke]

One of the drawers on the front does not go full depth to allow for a right side dust collection port. I just routed the cable through the dust port. I did have to shorten the cable:

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v212/mbg/My%20Tools/Incra/PRL-V2%20Crank%20Mod/IMG_1428.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v212/mbg/My%20Tools/Incra/PRL-V2%20Crank%20Mod/IMG_1427.jpg


Mike

[Wayne Jolly]

Mike - All I can say is Holy $#!T that's nice! I have thought about putting a cabinet under the saw wing, but for all of the table saw accessories. I do have the 50" rails so there might be room for both, but the way I accumulate junk I doubt it. Blades, dado sets, inserts, tools, miter gauges, fence (or maybe fences if I have a separate one for the router), featherboards, jigs, etc. I think I have enough stuff to fill that space already.

Mike - one more thing. How is that Wixey working for ya. It looks like the recess it is in would instantly fill with saw dust making it unreadable. You'd have to blow it out every time you wanted to make a change.

For everyone else - The limited range on the PRL-V2 thumb wheel is something I see quite often. My question is, how much travel would you really want, and how much do you think you would really use? Everyone seems to want full range, but would you really use the thumb wheel to go full range? :eek: Geez, talk about worn out arthritic thumbs . . . .

Wayne

[Mike Goetzke]

Mike - All I can say is Holy $#!T that's nice! I have thought about putting a cabinet under the saw wing, but for all of the table saw accessories. I do have the 50" rails so there might be room for both, but the way I accumulate junk I doubt it. Blades, dado sets, inserts, tools, miter gauges, fence (or maybe fences if I have a separate one for the router), featherboards, jigs, etc. I think I have enough stuff to fill that space already.

Mike - one more thing. How is that Wixey working for ya. It looks like the recess it is in would instantly fill with saw dust making it unreadable. You'd have to blow it out every time you wanted to make a change.

For everyone else - The limited range on the PRL-V2 thumb wheel is something I see quite often. My question is, how much travel would you really want, and how much do you think you would really use? Everyone seems to want full range, but would you really use the thumb wheel to go full range? :eek: Geez, talk about worn out arthritic thumbs . . . .

Wayne

Sorry Wayne, I also have TS storage too:

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v212/mbg/Unisaw%20Cabinet/th_IMG_0905_4_1.jpg (http://smg.photobucket.com/albums/v212/mbg/Unisaw%20Cabinet/?action=view&current=IMG_0905_4_1.jpg)
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v212/mbg/Unisaw%20Cabinet/th_IMG_0904_2_1.jpg (http://smg.photobucket.com/albums/v212/mbg/Unisaw%20Cabinet/?action=view&current=IMG_0904_2_1.jpg)


The Wixey for me had problems with my larger bits (vibration?). So the Wixey fix was a different DRO but unfortuneately it doesn't fit the same cutout. The cutout really doesn't fill with dust that quickly.

Mike