Redesigning my space for hand tools

[Mike Holbrook]

I am in the process of redesigning/finally finishing my shop. I am interested in having a much more hand tool oriented work space. I want to be able to build cabinets and furniture for my home and business (on the same property as my home). I am trying to eliminate large machines and the need for air filtration systems. I have some Festool tools that I have used for more construction oriented projects that appeal to me both as woodworking and construction tools. I am think the Festool tools might be more compatible with a hand tool shop than the larger machines.

Some of the shop oriented projects I am collecting wood and parts for are: split top Roubo workbench, saw benches, work support tables/cabinets, work support for a Millers Falls Langdon 74C miter box. I have a local wood supplier who can provide lumber with two planed surfaces and one good edge for very reasonable prices. The big job that I do not want to tackle by hand is the ripping of long thick boards. I have 8/4" x 8' lumber I need to rip for my workbench and saw benches now.

I ran a post on SMC regarding bandsaws. The Hammer, larger Rikons which people were suggesting... are up around $2,000. I would prefer not to make that kind of investment but I am even less excited about having another large piece of machinery in the shop that will require long clear in feed and out feed areas. I would like to get rid of my table saw not add another machine. I don't see how people handle all the large machines in anything other than a very large shop space with lots of air filtration.....I can see how I can work a Festool saw center and a large hand tool bench into my space.


It seems to me that Festool plunge saws may be more compatible with my move towards hand tools, particularly in regard to work support. I like the fact that the Festool saws work the wood in place without having to have large clear in feed and out feed areas. I believe work support tables/benches/horses could be made such that they could be shared between Festool saws and hand tools. I have a FS55 and I am thinking about buying a FS75 plunge saw. I'm not wild about buying another Festool plunge saw, but I would greatly prefer that option to needing a tablesaw and a large bandsaw. I like my Festool MFT1080 table fine. It is around 32" tall which I think works better for me than the 35" height I find listed for the new MFT3. I think my MFT, my Lee Valley Outfeed Roller Stand, a hand built support table and a sacrificial top would handle up to 8/4' x 8' boards for ripping without my having to make the investment in a bandsaw? I might even be able to move the contractor table saw out?


I am hoping that having both the TS55 & 75 Festools saws would give me all the powered sawing ability I need? With my Miller Falls Langdon 74C Miter box and collection of hand/panel and backsaws for smaller chores I think I could process just about any lumber I might encounter?

I am in the throws of reorganizing the whole shop and improving the lighting both of which need to be based on the tools I will be using. The MF Miter Saw seems to work well on the Festool MFT table. A Festool saw center next to a hand tool workbench seems to me to offer the work surfaces, tool support and work support I will need for my projects without over crowding my space. I thought I would make this post before I invest all the time and resources into this plan.

[Jessica Pierce-LaRose]

My only thought would be that infeed and outfeed only need to be long enough to handle the length of pieces you plan on working - if you can chop things to rough length first, it gets easier, and once you get away from the whole idea of working sheet goods on a table saw, you free up a lot of space. Also, if you can make the heights work, by raising or lowering things, your infeed and outfeed area can coincide with your bench and table areas if they're shorter than the height of the bandsaw table. If might be a hassle to clear the clutter from the bench, maybe set up some short rollers or something on it if needed, but it's better than trying to maintain a huge clear area around the tool. I don't know, if I had the option, I'd prefer a bandsaw over a circ. saw of any type for ripping.

Hand ripping isn't super hard - I've ripped long lengths of 8/4 maple up by hand with a probably too-short, not coarse enough hand saw and haven't had too hard a time with it. of course, if I had a powered option, I would have taken it.

You of course want to take into consideration wood movement and stuff, but working by hand, my workflow is considerably different than say, what I remember Norm Abrams doing watching his show - I'm not going to surface everything, and then rip and crosscut every piece of stock of a project before I move to making all of the mortise, then all of the tenons, then all of the drawers, etc. Because I'm not dealing with setups the way I would if a tablesaw were my main tool, I can space things out to get things ready for what I plan on doing, I don't need to focus on getting everything that needs this setup done before I change out blades and settings on my saw.

Often I start by chopping things to rough length, and then rip and surface what I plan on working on next. So I might focus on prepping for one drawer, with another one roughed out a bit to start acclimating for my next shop session.

Breaking up the tedious tasks like ripping and surfacing rough lumber makes them seem less daunting, and makes my limited time in the shop more enjoyable than if I spent all day doing one thing.

[Zach England]

My screw is still in the box. I have probably turned the lights in my shop on once or twice in the past three weeks.

[Jessica Pierce-LaRose]

My screw is still in the box. I have probably turned the lights in my shop on once or twice in the past three weeks.

Wrong thread, Zach.

:)

Sorry you haven't been able to hit the shop much either.

[Mike Holbrook]

Joshua,
The thing I like about using the Festool plunge saws is there is no in feed or out feed. The saw moves over the work instead of the work moving over the saw. So, instead of needing 8' in front of the saw and 8' behind it for a total of 16 + the width of the saw table, I only need room to lay the 8' board on some form of supported sacrificial surface. The point being, if I do all my long rips with the Festool saws then I save the space for a table saw and bandsaw and the in feed and out feed areas needed for both saws. I believe I can do the rest of my sawing either with Millers Falls Mitre Box or my hand, panel or backsaws. The Festool saws work more like hand tools in terms of the work flow too. I mark a line, same as with a handsaw. There is a short additional step of laying the cutting guide up against the line but then I slap the saw on the guide and just cut. I don't even have to worry about the saw wandering while it is on the guide. You can even plunge anywhere on the work instead of having to start at an edge. The guide and marks on the saw base show you exactly where the saw will cut.

The Festool guys say the TS75 can make a glue ready surface in 8/4 boards. I think this ability also saves me the space many shops devote to a jointer and again the in feed and out feed areas.

[Curt Putnam]

Mike,

I love my TS55, yes indeedy I do. That said, I'm really trying to get away from sheet goods, which I see as its forte. The problem with the plunge saws is rips on narrow material. Consider ripping 1/4" off a 2" piece. You need a lot of support for the track that is the same thickness as your cut piece. Other than that and total depth of cut the plunge saws can pretty much eliminate a TS. I'm willing to bet that you will wind up with at least a 14" bandsaw (cabriole legs and random rips) and a thickness planer as your last power tools. Oh and a battery powered drill-driver.

Just sayin', IMO and YMMV,

Curt

[Mike Holbrook]

Curt,
I am told the parallel guide for the plunge saws is great for making narrow rips. I would not be buying a TS75 to cut plywood. I want ever get away from cutting sheet goods because of construction projects. I have to order 20 some sheets right now to cover walls in a room I just built. Although I would like to make my cabinets from solid wood I am thinking I may still use plywood for the backs of cabinets and the bottom of drawers. I have an Inca band saw now. I have the Festool T15 Li-ion drill with all the attachments. My wood supplier can surface both sides and give me one good side on all the lumber I buy.

[Jim Foster]

How big is your shop?

[Nathan Callender]

If it were me, I would keep a track saw for plywood, and get a band saw for ripping wood. I'm talking something good in the 16-18in range, so not a huge monstrosity of a saw. I would get a cartridge single stage dust collector for it. I wouldn't keep an MFT set up all the time for the track saw - I'd just break the pieces down on the floor.

Here's why - an MFT takes up just as much room as a table saw, but a band saw is really quite compact. Plus, I can remember only two parts over several years that actually had to be 8+ feet long. Most other parts for furniture are just not that long, so position the band saw near a door/windows so that you can open it to get more outfeed on the rare occasions you need it.

That's just how I would do it, although, in full disclosure, I like having a few other power tools around as well. :-)

[Jessica Pierce-LaRose]

Here's why - an MFT takes up just as much room as a table saw, but a band saw is really quite compact. Plus, I can remember only two parts over several years that actually had to be 8+ feet long. Most other parts for furniture are just not that long, so position the band saw near a door/windows so that you can open it to get more outfeed on the rare occasions you need it.

That was my take - unless you're making a lot of really tall pieces, it's often going to be easier to rough cut to length, then rip, cutting back dramatically on what you need for space on either end. But again - just my my thoughts - your needs may very well require something different. But that said, there's always molding, where striking the longest piece you can is going to be helpful to make things match up as you wrap around a piece, particularly if you're using planes over tailed tools for making your moldings.

[Mike Holbrook]

I have 9- 8' x 8/4' boards right now that I need to make a work bench and sawbench from. I will need to buy and work other 8/4 boards for the workbench base too. I need to make final decisions regarding lighting locations in my shop now. I need to know how & where I will process those longer boards. I do not see a way to work: the table saw, a close to 8' Roubo hand tool bench, floor drill press, exisitng bandsaw, new bandsaw, my compact Hammer bench, my Festool work station and everything else into the space I have. I can see how to organize the space without the larger bandsaw or table saw. I might be able to work one of those saws in if I have to but I just do not see how to get both of them in the space.

My table saw is 67" x 46" (widest point at motor) my MFT is 48" x 32". More than the size of each device though, the in feed and out feed areas around the TS are what eat up space. I don't know of any Bandsaw that has a large enough table to support larger work pieces so some sort of work support would seem to be required on both sides of the saw? Bandsaws tend to have higher work surfaces so I am thinking the work support needed for the band saw would not work with other tools. The nice bandsaw set ups I have seen that handle ripping longer boards use a good deal of space. If I bought a larger bandsaw I would have it on wheels like my table saw. This too is a double edged sword because one still has to leave or make a path for the saw to travel along.

My shop at the house is actually two rooms, both under ground. There are no windows and no good place to run an exhaust fan or even the hose for a dust collector outside. The main shop area is 20' x 14'. The other room, off the first room, is 14' x 12'. The second room stores wood, tools, paints and painting equipment and some things not related to wood working exactly. The second room has shelves and wood hanging devices that do not leave space for a machine.

I should add that I am building a room under a 60 x 30' work building. The top floor of the building is 9+' above ground on 8x8" posts. Unfortunately the enclosed room I am building is for my business and there will be little or no space for tools. Just off that area will be an enclosed room, gravel floor, that will house gardening and construction tools. I will have an area beside the tool room, under the rest of the building with a decking floor but no walls 21 x 12'. This area will hold an old work bench. I will have a cutting bench for sheet goods on the deck area too. This decked area is protected from sun and rain and will get used to do much of my construction work for the business. A compound miter saw, air compressors, etc. will reside in the tool room next to the deck. I am considering putting my contractors table saw on the deck too, maybe with some sort of cover it could survive in the harsher environment. The thing is this deck will get used for business activities too so I do not want to cover the whole thing with tools. The cutting table will serve as a table/table for the business, so it does double duty. The old workbench can be made to do double duty too. The tablesaw not so much.

Our house and business follow a Dutch Colonial theme, all molding is simple 1 x 3.5" boards. I can buy these or rip them from larger boards.

[Mark Wyatt]

Mike, the only input/question I see with your initial proposal would be a tool for longer curved cuts or circular cuts. While a jig saw can be used to replace a band saw in these cases, the result is not as clean. You could also run into issues with depth of cut. A bow saw is a non-powered option. I believe George Wilson has said that he likes a well used hand saw of the Disston D-23 variety for this task as well.

I'm on the path to a different solution. I'm keeping the table saw, but adding/modifying it to be a work table for hand tools while not serving its traditional function. I end up with too many construction projects to eliminate the power tools at this point.

[Jim Koepke]

The main problem with my bandsaw is it is underpowered. When longer pieces need ripping it isn't difficult to rig up temporary in feed and out feed ramps. My main problem with that is the temporary part. Often the ramps end up being used in some other project that needs a 2X4 or 2X6 that was used for the ramp.

One day it is my hope to be able to buy a more powerful bandsaw. As underpowered as it is, it is still handy for shaping wood and doing some slow resawing. For ripping long pieces, it is currently easier for me to use a handsaw.

jtk

[Nathan Callender]

Wow, you've got a bunch of space! One thing that has really helped me is to lay out the space in a layout program. If you draw up your space and tool layout in one, and then post it here, it will really help both you and us.

http://www.grizzly.com/workshopplanner.aspx

In any case, you have to think of what you need and don't need. If you have a track saw and want to keep that for breaking down plywood, great, but do you really need an MFT set up all the time? I know I wouldn't. If you had a good bandsaw and track saw, would you still need your table saw at all, or at least accessible? You said you already have a bandsaw - if you upgrade to a bigger one and still need space, sell the smaller one. It's nice to have both, but non necessary.

Do you really need an 8' bench - my current bench is 54", and my next one will be 69". Only you can answer that.

[Mike Holbrook]

I have an Inca band saw, the smaller one. I believe it will make any curved cut I need. I have good 1/8, 1/4, 3/8, 1/2" blades and sanding belts for it. It is not a big saw but fairly powerful. Some people have even used this saw for ripping their hardwood boards. Although the throat is smaller than on a 14" saw I can't see me needing to cut more than 4". I do not want to sell the bandsaw I have, several others have told me not to sell it and I just located a place or two that carry parts. My reason for considering a larger bandsaw would strictly be for any increased ability to rip long boards accurately. I doubt, however, that even a good 16-18" bandsaw will cut more accurate rips than the Festool TS75 if I am understanding what hear from the Festool users.

Mark, like you for the last year my table saw has been serving mostly as a work table. I have stikit sandpaper stuck to one side. The other side is serving as my tool cleaning/restoring center. Which is one of the reasons I want the larger bench. The new bench will be whatever length I can get from the 8' boards I have. I am thinking 87- 90". I think the MFT and another table next to it would serve as general work surfaces as well as my sawing center. I also have a Festool 1400 router that works with it. The Miller Falls 74C miter saw I just restored works well on it. With the Festool clamps I have I can clamp almost anything to it easily.