The Evolving Build Of A Euro Cabinet - Cherry Kitchen

[Leo Graywacz]

Just starting up on this job so nothing really to report. I have tried a few different ways to do Euro cabinets and haven't been pleased with the processes.

I've tried just screws, but being a higher end producer of cabinetry I feel this is a cheap way to make cabinets. It works, but relying on just screws seems cheap to me.

Next time I tried using biscuits. Worked better, but a lot of work with all the aligning and milling the biscuit slots on both sides. Each slot needs to be cut which means moving the machine around a lot and aligning it somewhat precisely to make sure it matches its mating slot. Gluing up is difficult on larger cabinets.

Then I tried using a blind dado. I made a jig/machine that would mill the slot and 2 tablesaw setups to do the tenons on the decks and tops. Again, very labor intensive setup, same type of glue up operation.

So now I am on a different path..doweling. If I did the doweling with normal means this would be a bust. It would take forever and alignment would be a disaster. But being me..I made a jig, a Euro doweling jig. Actually I made the CAD drawing and I had it milled out of 4140PH steel by a machine shop using a CNC machine. Holes were milled and reamed to .376". By using a few different setups with the jig I can do the end doweling, the top and deck doweling.

I have just about finished up with cutting my sheet goods and banded them. Sometime tomorrow I should start using the jig to drill the dowel holes. I will be doing a bunch of testing and samples before I start drilling holes in my parts. If I had to I could switch to biscuits if I can't get a satisfactory fit with the dowels. I am pretty confident that the jig will work nicely.

Here is a pic of the jig.

http://fototime.com/698EFA199075873/orig.jpg

[Chris Parks]

I have a niggling suspicion I have seen something very similar on the internets somewhere but a good idea none the less. I thought I was the only one that couldn't get dowels aligned properly!

[Steve Griffin]

Funny how emotion plays such large part in woodworking.

Somehow a screw seems "cheap", but mass produced machine made dowels with dripping with a modern chemical soup called "glue" are not?

Actually, I've used dowels a bit myself, but only on low end cabinets with no dados or rabbits. Carcass parts are machined on a CNC machine, and assembly is just a matter of slapping some clamps on for a little bit. It works pretty good, but it seems cheap to me.;)

[Leo Graywacz]

I typically hate when you can see a fastener. Hidden joinery is much more desired. A blind dado is much better, but without the modern machinery it is just to labor involved to get the same result with dowels. One of the benefits of doing it with dowels is I can cut all of my pcs because they are a know length. When I do dadoes there is a bit of variance and I cut my sided first and then dadoes and then test the size, depth of dado plus thickness of material, to determine the length of the deck. And because my top stretchers are not dadoed they are a different length than the deck, so they need to be fit because of the slight variances that occur. So now, with everything fitting inside the two walls of the cabinet, the deck, stretcher and toekick can all be cut at the same time.

What do you consider a good joinery method for cabinet carcasses that you wouldn't consider cheap?

[Leo Graywacz]

I have a niggling suspicion I have seen something very similar on the internets somewhere but a good idea none the less. I thought I was the only one that couldn't get dowels aligned properly!

Never seen anything on the internet or anywhere else for that matter that resembles what I did, other that a shelf hole jig. I thought this up with my own little wee brain.

[John Lanciani]

How about this; http://www.leevalley.com/us/wood/page.aspx?p=42200&cat=1,180,42311 Lee Valley 32mm system. It's a little fussy at first but it does everything you need for euro cabinets.

[Jeff Duncan]

I've gone through a bunch of techniques....biscuits, screws, pocket holes, pretty much everything I could think of except for dowels, which just seemed too difficult to align repeatedly. Then about 2 years ago I ended up bringing an old CNC boring machine into the shop and it's been confirmats ever since. As with most things in life you have to decide where to draw the line. Most of us want to produce quality work, but if it takes twice as long and costs twice as much to produce, we're not going to get the job in the first place. So we all have to find that comfort zone on how to build just the 'right' level of quality. Do I think they're the best possible way of assembling a cabinet? Nope, probably not. They are however very quick to both drill and assemble, and as strong as one could ever need for this type of construction. Only downside is they, like most things, are not a one size fits all solution. Some end panels and divided cabinets still have to have some additional fastening steps.

Having said all that I like your jig! I think that's a very low tech, yet highly accurate way to go about aligning your dowels. Let us know how it works out!

JeffD

[frank shic]

that's pretty neat, leo. i tried VERY BRIEFLY to domino one of my vanity carcases together before rushing back to stapling and screwing in the interest of time!

[Gary Kman]

Please tell us that you aren't going to use ALL those holes on one joint.

[Phil Thien]

That looks like a Joint Genie on steroids:

http://www.joint-genie.com/

Please let us know how it works for you.

May I ask what the machining set you back?

[frank shic]

Please tell us that you aren't going to use ALL those holes on one joint.

too many holes is a bad thing for a guy like me who's prone to drilling the wrong ones!

[Mark Denovich]

Eleven replies and no one has waxed rhapsodic about the Festool Domino?

[Halgeir Wold]

FYI - most Euro cabinets these days are delivered flat packed, and assembled either in the shop or by the customer......
most joints are made with these special locking screws and dowels.... 2 of each per joint...
Then the back panel is fastened using small nails...... cheap and easy, - but that's just the way it is.....

[Bill Huber]

What do you use as your reference surface? To me that is the key to getting things in alignment and repeatability.

[Leo Graywacz]

What do you use as your reference surface? To me that is the key to getting things in alignment and repeatability.

Hey Bill. Long time. How the heck are ya?

The holes I have drilled in the 1" wide edge are so I can screw it to a board. That becomes one of my reference surfaces. On the end there are two holes tapped 1/4-20 and I can screw a thin pc of stock on the end and that becomes my front/edge reference. I made it 3/4" thick so it would be close to the thickness of my plywood so I just have to put a few tick marks down and clamp it in place and then I can do interior stuff like fixed shelves and partitions.

[Leo Graywacz]

Please tell us that you aren't going to use ALL those holes on one joint.

On occasion I will. But on average I will be putting 4 holes in a upper and 6 holes in a lower. The first two holes will be one inch apart and the rest evenly spaced.

[Leo Graywacz]

May I ask what the machining set you back?


Originally I got quoted $345 to do this in 4140PH steel. I was going through a guy who knew the owner of the company and he was doing all the talking. He offered the guy $200 and it was accepted.

So it cost me $220, I gave him $20 for gas.

It was all done on a CNC so everything is pretty much dead on.

[Leo Graywacz]

Now that I am done with the sheet good sizing an banding I started to play with the jig. Seems to work extremely well. Very simple setup and just bump the reference points on the MDF and clamp it down, drill your holes.

Here are a few drilled samples, just scrap that was on the side of the TS. The dowel joints are tight and I'm thinking I won't need much clamping, I put the longer boards together and I had to hammer them apart, I couldn't just wiggle them apart. Put a little glue in that and I'm thinking I am golden.

http://fototime.com/13431068619F3DD/orig.jpg

[Keith Weber]

Looks just like this guy's:

http://www.thebasementworkshop.com/Project_Albums/Cherry_Wall_Hung_Cabinet/HTML/Homemade_Aluminum_Jig_for_Drilling_Dowel_Holes.htm l

But steel trumps aluminum, so I would think that yours should hold up better.

[michael case]

A nice piece of work. I don't see how drilling all the dowel holes is going to be less laborious than biscuits. As for the Domino its as time consuming as a biscuit joiner for joining plywood cases though the resulting cases are more rigid. Has anyone done any research into the shortcomings of dowels? They have a well documented tendency fail in solid wood, but does this apply to plywood and or mdf?- I don't know.

[Leo Graywacz]

Yep, looks similar. Not that hard of a concept, just holes in steel. I've been (and a lot of others) have been drilling holes in wood to use as jigs for shelf pin holes for decades. I just wanted something long enough to do most cabinets without having to reposition it and lose alignment. The jig is 26 3/8" long and usually the biggest cabinet I do is 25" deep. On occasion I do a 30" deep for a standard fridge. I can just pop a dowel in as a reference and move the jig.

[frank shic]

once those cabinets are installed properly to the wall, i don't think it makes a big difference what kind of joinery you use. i've taken down stick-built cabinets that were fastened with just nails and they could have lasted another 20 years easily... just not very pretty!

[Andrew Joiner]

Nice jig Leo. To sell the concept to customers show them the Dowelmax tests. I've made tons of butt joints that I use exposed dowels on. I drill the dowel holes at an angle ( like dovetails) so if the glue ever fails the pieces can't pop straight off. Customers loved to see the ends of the dowels. It proves it's put together without nails or screws. In reality my tests indicated angled screws are just as strong.



As for the Domino its as time consuming as a biscuit joiner for joining plywood cases though the resulting cases are more rigid. Has anyone done any research into the shortcomings of dowels? They have a well documented tendency fail in solid wood, but does this apply to plywood and or mdf?- I don't know.
According to these tests http://www.dowelmax.com/jointstrength.html Dowels are way stronger the dominos.

[Steve Meliza]

According to these tests http://www.dowelmax.com/jointstrength.html Dowels are way stronger the dominos.

It was interesting to watch the "series 2" video and clearly their dowels are strong, but the mortise and tenon was the only joint that did not fail and they stopped the domino when there was an audible cracking sound. Maybe I missed where and how the domino failed, but my take away from the video was don't depend on biscuits for strength. It would be interesting to see the tests repeated with sheets goods. I also wonder at what point it really matters how much stronger the joint is if the boards split at as little as 640psi.

[Peter Quinn]

When I think Euro Cabs, I think automated. Line boring machines, edge banders, CNC or vertical panel saw. They are pretty much cheap cabinets by design. Its not that they can't be attractive, but the boxes aren't much of a work of art. Mass production from inception. I've pondered how I would handle a frameless job in my small shop if the need should ever arise. I know a lot of traditional guys that won't even bid on them, even in this economy. I've envisioned a jig like you made, but with steel bushings pressed in at regular locations rather than a complete steel bar. Nice jig there. I like the mechanical connection of the dowels. I saw some great euro boxes with blind dados made on a CNC from an outsource called Halls Edge here in CT. Best boxes I've seen, guy edge bands, machines plywood, flat packs and ships. You assemble and make doors etc. The fit was just too perfect. To me that is probably the best way for a small shop to make euro boxes, to not do it at all! Costs just a bit more than the plywood to have it done, you don't have to lift a single full sheet. Lets you focus on the more pleasant parts of cabinetry.

[Jamie Buxton]

For making cabinetry like kitchens and vanities, I use plywood. With plywood, biscuits and glue are fine. There's enough facegrain-to-facegrain glue area to make a good bond. However, in casework made with solid lumber, the biscuit/glue approach doesn't work as well. All the glue lines have endgrain on at least one face. For those situations, I use a dowel jig much like the OP's.

Mine is wood. It is set up for a plunge router, which I find to better at boring this kind of hole. The plunge router always makes holes that are straight into the board, and the depth stop is more reliable than the usual ones for drills.

There are lots of holes in the jig, mostly so that I can get dowels close to the edges of the boards, no matter what width the board is.

Mine took about a half hour to make, from scrap. Works like a champ.

[Bruce Wrenn]

Dowels, 32MM OC have been the standard for years. They don't have to be big, because there are so many of them. You could take a "MEG" jig and drill holes with plunge router.

[Leo Graywacz]

Here is one of the setups required to do base cabinets. This is the deck setup. It lines up flush with the toekick cutout.

http://fototime.com/41E09532AF56C0F/orig.jpg

And the result of drilling
http://fototime.com/82A428CE14936B8/orig.jpg

Here is the setup for the stretcher holes. This flush setup will be doing a lot of work.

http://fototime.com/E0C165018A0499A/orig.jpg

And the result of drilling
http://fototime.com/7F0B2067210376A/orig.jpg

Here are the stretchers being drilled.

http://fototime.com/9F731CB26CD4F4A/orig.jpg

And the result of drilling
http://fototime.com/F74AF768FF95255/orig.jpg

All the decks, tops and stretchers use this setup. The decks and tops will have 6 holes drilled across the endgrain matching the holes drilled in the sides.

[frank shic]

very neat, leo. thanks for all the pics!

[Leo Graywacz]

Eventually I'll show the installed kitchen. Pretty boring kitchen and sub par design. I tried to sway them a bit, but they want what they want and that is what they will get.

[John Piwaron]

Eleven replies and no one has waxed rhapsodic about the Festool Domino?


I just completed a cabinet for a new router table in which I used the Festool Domino to join the plywood. while not exactly as fine as kitchen cabinets, it's close enough. This was my very first experience with using the Domino for anything, so I had the learning curve to deal with too.

Anyway, I thought it went pretty well. It's a good joint, it held things in the right relative position. I did *not* use it the way most Domino users seem to say - that is, with those little spring loaded doohickeys that are supposed to locate a domino opening from the previous one. I did mine with lining up on pencil marks. After all the learning how to use it stuff, I think the Domino will allow the user to work fairly quickly and get good reliable results.

But I won't say it's the last word in joint making, it's just another option.

[John Piwaron]

that's pretty neat, leo. i tried VERY BRIEFLY to domino one of my vanity carcases together before rushing back to stapling and screwing in the interest of time!

Can you elaborate? What about using a Domino was slowing you down? Keeping in mind I was using mine for the first time and I had a learning curve, by the end, I thought things were moving fairly quickly. I'm always willing to learn. Perhaps there's something I've overlooked. What was your experience?

[frank shic]

well, i had the domino set up the narrowest setting so that may be part of the reason i got frustrated when i started fitting the parts together but if you think about how much time it takes to cut the joints on both sides, glue and clamp it takes much longer than pushing the pieces together, nailing them temporarily with a pneumatic stapler and then screwing them together. i haven't totally given up on using the domino for cabinet building although i'll probably use it just to align the pieces together initially before screwing them together. the staplers can sometimes blow through the side...

[Leo Graywacz]

Well, the last two days the kitchen was installed. The client wanted the Euro cabs to the ceiling. What a pain. The ceiling was uneven and sloped, especially where the refer cabinet was, and I didn't really catch it when I was taking measurement for the kitchen. It made it a difficult cabinet to get in. But it went in never the less and was adjusted accordingly to get things lined up. Gotta love those Euro hinges with their adjustment.

Couple of shots with my P&S camera. It was a long day in the shop at 7:30 and back at the shop at 8:20.

http://fototime.com/08FC0CA154C31DF/orig.jpg

http://fototime.com/26613F862175CA7/orig.jpg

http://fototime.com/4338BBC09BEE5E2/orig.jpg

http://fototime.com/46093AD80B11DFA/orig.jpg


Blind cabinet hardware
http://fototime.com/D77C73BC640B1B6/orig.jpg


trash pullout with storage for bags
http://fototime.com/E19B43B379708E0/orig.jpg

[frank shic]

love the hardware! did you make all the doors and drawer fronts too or did you outsource?

[Leo Graywacz]

I made just about everything, the blind corner hardware was bought (hinges too obviously). I made the garbage pullout. I have tried several and all of them are lacking. Made the doors, I don't have that particular stile and rail cutter so I borrowed it from another woodworker friend. The panel is just 7/16" thick and I used my normal raised cutter. Usually you do a shaker door in this manner and the bevel goes on the backside of the door. In this case the client saw that and wanted the bevel on the front side of the door. Several people so far have commented on the door style that they liked it.

Here is a pic of the tray cabinet that I neglected to take when I was doing my hardware pics.

http://fototime.com/B32316560C268FF/orig.jpg

[frank shic]

leo, what slides did you use with that garbage pullout? it looks much sturdier than any of the usual ones that i've seen. how did you edge band all those parts? it looks like you also selectively bored for the hardware rather than line drilling. LOVE FRAMELESS :)

[Leo Graywacz]

All the slides in this kitchen are 21" Blum blumotion (soft close) slides. I don't have a boring machine and I really don't like the look of a true balanced 32mm panel either. To many useless holes and they are set back to far for me to feel comfortable for shelving. I made a small jig to drill the two holes required for the hinges. The doors are bored at 4" from the bottom/top edge and the drilling jig just has a center line on it that you line up with 4" on the cabinet, goes quick enough. Not auto boring machine quick, but I'm only building one kitchen at a time.

Edge banding was done with my Westinghouse edge bander....uhmmm..iron. Again, all by hand and I select the banding so there are no joints on the pcs. Occasionally I have to have a joint on some of the floor to ceiling cabs because the boards they get the banding out of can be less than 8'.

[Gregory King]

Nice work Leo. I want to redo our kitchen cabinets as well. They were built in the early eighties, oak ply doors c/w fixed shelves. Our ladies of today crave for the pullout drawers for pans and pots. My wife hated the old lazy susan in the corner, so I removed it to store the pots. Like everyone,that worked well for a bit, but getting down on the knees everytime to access that corner tends to be tiresome. Any way great pictures, food for thought. Greg

[Eric DeSilva]

I've seen that blind corner hardware before, and it has always seemed like a good concept... How does it work in practice? What kind of usability review would you give it?

[Leo Graywacz]

It works well, a little sticky in the beginning as it breaks in. But it really doesn't take advantage of the space it is used in. Most blind corner hardware is limited by the size of the door anyway. The nice thing is there isn't much bending over and reaching into the cabinet to get anything. It all comes out to you. There is a much more expensive version of this that has more onboard storage and the upper and lower baskets are on separate slides. The unit runs about a grand. Makes a lazy susan look good at those prices.

[Van Huskey]

Again, all by hand and I select the banding so there are no joints on the pcs. Occasionally I have to have a joint on some of the floor to ceiling cabs because the boards they get the banding out of can be less than 8'.

Not being a cabinet maker, by any stretch, and thus rarely using edgeband I hate using it since almost everytime I do it I miss a joint that I only see when I get to finish or worse, after. I swear I am careful but obviously not careful enough!

I love the vertical storage in the last cabinet, we have one in our home in SC and we both HATE the fact we don't in our LA house, there was just no place to put one in that didn't need to be something else.

[Leo Graywacz]

They are starting to get really (really) good at hiding the joints in the edge banding tape. You have to have a good eye to spot it sometimes and a few can get away from you. It use to have a little extra strip that you could see on the glue side of the tape where the joint was. Now they don't do that and you have to look for them on the wood side. They almost grain match at times where the two grains just flow into each other. Other times you can see it plain as day. I have an island that I am pricing out that will have a pull out tray holder that you would access from the topside after you pull it out on the slides. Neat idea, we will see if I get the job.

[Van Huskey]

I have an island that I am pricing out that will have a pull out tray holder that you would access from the topside after you pull it out on the slides. Neat idea, we will see if I get the job.


That is a very cool idea, we would have put one in the peninsula but it is a lake house and we built it mainly as a vacation house with entertainment in mind, since we don't often have formal dinners (crawfish boils and fish frys are MUCH more comon) we didn't want a dining room table so we didn't put cabs in the peninsula so we could seat 10 people all the way around it. The one in our other house is above the ovens and we use it for all the cookie sheets and trays as well. I tried to find a place we could put a narrow one in (spice drawer width) just to hold a couple of cookie sheets but everywhere I tried to splip it in it either wouldn't fit or messed up the clean look my wife was looking for. I am sure a good KD would not have had an issue but a KD I am not!

[frank shic]

leo did you use prefinished ply or did you just spray the entire panel along with the edgebanding? what brand of edgebanding are you using btw? i like the fastcap stuff because it doesn't require ironing and the 1mm material is a lot thicker than the melamine version i've used before in the past. have you considered using levelling feet so that you can get more sides out of a sheet?

[Leo Graywacz]

All raw Cherry MDF. I don't use plywood on a Euro build. Not straight enough. Edge banding is through Atlantic Plywood, the Cherry isn't marked but everything else I've gotten through them is Edgemate.

Never considered the leg levelers, I use eCabs to nest my plywood and it usually does a pretty good job. I had some odd size cabinets and ended up with about 6 8" strips left over out of 15 sheets of MDF. But that wouldn't have helped if I was doing 30 1/4" sides anyway.

I had to use a ladder base on the two tall cabs, Oven/MW-Pantry because they needed to be floor to ceiling and there was no way to tip them up it they had a base. That would do the same thing as the leg levelers. I suspect the levelers might be easier to adjust. My clients don't see the quality factor in them.

[frank shic]

it was a shock to me when i first discovered that plywood was NOT perfectly flat but now i use primarily 5/8" melamine although on frameless i would probably go with 3/4". the leg levelers are great if you just install two of them in the front and use a ledger in the back. saves a ton of time and frustration lying on your side trying to spin those rear levelling legs. wish i had a PC still so i could run ecabs :(

[Larry Edgerton]

Unless I built the house I use leg levelers. I found a very heavy set from a place in Florida, Hardware Concepts. I drill a hole in the back of the cabinet so I can use a screwdriver on the back legs and they make different color plugs for that purpose. I don't use the toekick clips except in areas where access in the future may be necessary. Instead I use blocks screwed to the bottom of the cabinet to fasten the toekick. I very seldom do any lower cabinets without drawers so the plugs are not an issue. If I built the house then I know the floor is flat, walls are plumb and I will build in one piece. Sometimes I will screw a ledger on the wall to let the backs ride on, especially if the tile is done to the wall. The rough tile people are into lately make it tough.

Inside corners are tough. $1k is a lot of money per square foot of storage when you add in the cost of the cabinet. I like to design in a cabinet on a 45 degree with 32" slides and drawers. You still lose pretty much the same amount of space but I work in some very large houses so not a biggie anyway. I like working in a kitchen myself with about a 16-18 inch 45 cut on the corners.[hip size]. I made one with a appliance garage that lifted up out of the wasted corner, but that was a lot of money and really just a gimick. I have used the kidney bean corner hardware, but you are losing the same amount of space. I hate lazy susans, just always a pain to use. I guess of all the solutions I prefer angled drawers although your $1k hardware is cool.

Neat jig. I have a SSC dado machine that lets me easily do stopped dados and so that is my method of choice at the moment. I make my own splines by cutting thin stock so that the grain is on a 45 degree. I agree screws are a bit cheazy, but I hate euro cabinets anyway. Still we have to strive to be the best if we have that flaw in our personality that puts craftsmanship over profit. That trait has kept me from the big money all my life, but at the end of the day all I care about is that I left behind something of quality. Seems you have the same problem.:p

Larry

PS. The flaw seems to get worse with age.....

[Leo Graywacz]

The hardware pictured only cost $315. The $1K hardware is the more advanced hardware that gives you more space. It still doesn't give you full access to the storage area.

I have made a blind corner system that uses most of the space and gives OK access. I made a 1/4 round double level pullout and then two sliding shelves for the blind area. You have to get down low and reach in to grab the sliding shelves but when you do the stuff is in the normal access area like a fixed shelf would be.

In this pic you can see the 1/4 round and if you peek into the cabinet you can see the sliding shelves. These aare the best pics I have of the system.

http://fototime.com/03EDC793552B04E/medium800.jpg

http://fototime.com/7C6C5784D9B8B79/standard.jpg

[frank shic]

i would prefer to just build out the corner if possible and not have to deal with all the hassle.

[Leo Graywacz]

Lazy susans may not be that popular but they work pretty well and are significantly cheaper than all other solutions. If the space is available that is what I always suggest. If they don't like the plastic ones it can be upgraded to wood or steel mesh

[Steve Griffin]

i would prefer to just build out the corner if possible and not have to deal with all the hassle.

Yep. If you care about money or storage space, don't use lazy susans. Attached is a pdf showing the math.

Besides not gaining you any more storage (you trade 2 linear feet of cabinets for two pac man shaped shelves), I hate how they often end up driving the kitchen layout. For example, if you have 30" left of the stove to the corner, it's far nicer to have some wide drawers, than be forced to use a 12" bifold door and a narrow drawer bank or cabinet door)

If you really need more storage, the solution Leo did is far superior to Lazy susans.

[Greg Portland]

I wonder if the Woodhaven Kurka jig would work for this application + allow you to drill shelf pin holes, drawer slide mounts, hinge mounts, etc.

Regarding the speed of Domino vs biscuit I've found that I can cut slots faster with the biscuit joiner but the Domino make up for that with ease / accuracy of assembly.

[frank shic]

the kurka jig would work VERY well for euro cabinets

[Greg Portland]

Yes, I've tested it extensively for my shelf-pin article. However, I didn't do any testing using it to also drill the dowel holes.

[Leo Graywacz]

Good day today. The appliances came in today. They all went in nice. He gave me a scare. He called me up and told me the refrigerator didn't fit. Then he he said that my opening dimension was a smidge under 33". And I told him the specs said the fridge was 32 5/8". He then says I guess we'll try to fit it in. WHAT?! He called me up to tell me the fridge didn't fit and they didn't even try.

So it fit, no problem, just as planned. Everything else fit to. Fridge, MW, DW and built in oven. Nice to have the job to completion.

http://fototime.com/5F1D695427C4F49/standard.jpg