I am really confussed....

[Dale Cruea]

I have been sharpening buy hand for several years now. I am getting pretty good at it in my view.
I rub my blades across several different grit stones and then an 8000 grit King gold.
I used to follow this with a short strop with rouge.
I found out that rouge was too soft for hardened steel like I use. I changed to the green stuff. This compound is said to be .5 micron.
I figured IF my 8000 grit stone is about 2 micron or there about. Then the .5 green compound should not scratch the bevel but polish it.
I have a new horse butt strop. Hair side out.

It appears not to be this way.
The green compound adds lots of scratches to my bevel.
It will scratch the back that I took all of this time to polish with the rouge.

My question is: How can something that is roughly 4 times finer put bigger scratches than my 8000 grit stone in my blades?????

My bevels look worse after stropping than when I finish with the 4000 grit stone.

I am thinking I should buy a 15000 grit stone and be done with stropping.
Or got to the .5 micron diamond spray to strop with.

[Curt Putnam]

From whom did you purchase the green crayon?

[Stuart Tierney]

If you hit yourself in the head with a hammer, do you keep doing it and wonder why it hurts or do you stop doing it so it stops hurting?

Lose the polishing compound, and use the strop without anything on it.

Keep it simple.

Stu.

[Derek Cohen]

The Gold King leaves a shiny finish. But so should the green compound.

On what surface are you using the green compound?

The problem could be that the green compound may be contaminated, the surface you use it on is contaminated, or both.

Regards from Perth

Derek

[Daniel Berlin]

The Gold King leaves a shiny finish. But so should the green compound.

On what surface are you using the green compound?

The problem could be that the green compound may be contaminated, the surface you use it on is contaminated, or both.

Regards from Perth

Derek

Derek's right, and these are good things to check out.
But let me suggest another possibliity
Green compound is generally rated by average particle size. Since there is no real standard for green compound (unlike, say, sandpaper), you get varying quality.
Most of it has an "average" particle size of 0.5 micron, but different quality compound may contain much coarser particles, and much finer particles, whereas higher quality compound has a much better distribution of particles. So you may end up with larger scratches, though you end up with a theoretically finer average scratch pattern.
BTW Worse, than all of this, not all green compound labeled as chromium oxide is even all chromium oxide!
Depending on who you got your stuff from, you may have gotten "not great" stuff.

Lee valley sells high quality chromium oxide compound if you want someone who "does it right". They rate it by the average scratch pattern it generates, rather than the particle size in the compound.
Personally, when i have the urge to go to 0.5 micron, i buy the lapping films.
No worries about contamination, etc.

[Chris Griggs]

Is it possible the polishing action of the green compound is simply highlighting scratches left over from the coarser grit stones that were not adequately removed?

[Dale Cruea]

Hmmmmm, some very good thoughts. I don't recall where I purchased the green stuff and my strop does sit close to my bench grinder.
Thanks again guys.
Dale

[Charlie Stanford]

if you hit yourself in the head with a hammer, do you keep doing it and wonder why it hurts or do you stop doing it so it stops hurting?

Lose the polishing compound, and use the strop without anything on it.

Keep it simple.

Stu.

amen, brother!

[Jonas Baker]

I have actually had the same issue occasionally. I find that when I add a bit of oil to the loaded strop, then this doesn't happen anymore. I use Jajoba oil, as that what I have, but I'm sure other oils would work well. The oil seems to remove the built up polishing compound and creates more of a uniform slurry, so to speak. I have also started to use mdf as a strop and it has made my stropping experience a lot more enjoyable.

[David Weaver]

I think the green crayons that are called "microfine" in a yellow box are more than half other stuff, including aluminum oxide.

If you want 0.5 micron stuff that's closely graded, you'll need to get green stuff from a shaving supply place. Star shaving sells pigment, 3 ounces of it (which is a LOT) for about $12. You can mix it with oil if you'd like.

Your strop shouldn't be somewhere that it can get swarf off of a grinder.

All of that aside, if the edge is much keener with the green stuff on a strop and if the surface you plane or chisel has no visible lines at all, then don't worry so much about what the edge looks like.

(if I feel the want for an edge that sharp, I would rather get it straight off of a harder surface, like MDF, anyway)

[Charlie Stanford]

If you just have to strop get the Wood is Good hard rubber strop with the accompanying small container of aluminum oxide powder. It'll put a shine on steel and the hard composition rubber won't dub edges. A few strokes will remove rag and do light touchups. I don't advocate using a strop in lieu of a stone but if you were going to this is the one to use because of its firmness.

A case can be made that you don't need to strop when using really fine stones like the 8,000 grit King and finer. If you're getting visible rag and a burr that won't release on the King you need to lighten up the pressure on your last passes across the King (this applies to all stones really). Flip back and forth bevel to back with really light pressure on your 8000 and you can forgo the strop.

Sharpening can get as complicated, overwrought, and as equipment and gadget laden as you want it to be. You have to remind yourself that SOMEHOW the guys who built all of the 18th century masterpieces managed to get it done and in the context of running (usually) profitable businesses. I've seen the pieces in museums. They did not appear to be hamstrung by the sharpening media available to them.

[Chris Griggs]

it has made my stripping experience a lot more enjoyable.

Best typo ever!!!!:D

[george wilson]

Amen,Charlie!! The many things I have posted here were all made with sharpening on simple stones. I was sharpening back then with a Super Punjab razor stone made by the American Hone Co. in Moravia,Iowa(or Ohio?)

This stone had a fine textured green side,which was the coarse side,and a much finer brown side. I just used lock oil on it at the time. Lock oil was available at the museum's warehouse. It was oil thinned out to run into locks,after which the solvent would evaporate. This,and a strop with Simichrome on it was what I used to get razor sharp edges for the tiny carvings I did,as well as coarse planing. I did experiment with different stones when I first came there,and had funds to do so,but I settled on the Super Punjab. It was a smallish stone,about 3" x 4",typical of razor stone sizes.

I liked those razor stones so well,I got the warehouse to stock them so the other craftsmen could get them easily.

Today,I use a diamond bench stone,followed by black and white ceramic stones and a little stropping. Water with a few drops of detergent is my lube.

[Dale Cruea]

Thanks for all of the tips and suggestions.

I honed my blade to 8000 and picked up a nice piece of butt leather (assuming this to be horse butt),
I put some leather conditioner on it then stropped the blade a few times. Worked great no scratches and very sharp.

The old way cut hair on my arm but not as smoothly as it does now.

I also used the plane on some mahogany end grain. Cut like butter and no little white lines.

I think I have found a better way to sharpen.
Thanks.

[george wilson]

Horse butt is cordovan. It is a good leather,and was advertised a lot when I was a kid for shoes. A joke back then was kangaroo shoes. They were soft,and worn reputedly by old people!! Wonder what the old timers would say about our very soft running,training,or walking shoes made from synthetic cloths? I never wear leather shoes any more unless it's a formal occasion.

[David Weaver]

I wear leather every day, so I'm an old timer. :)

and I say it's a shame you can't get moderately priced shoes made in italy very easily any longer. I just looked at my bostonians, and the date stamp on them is 2006. I have been wearing them every day but the soles are about worn through and I can't find anything that bostonian makes in italy that isn't goofy looking. They have outlasted the budget shoes I've gotten more than 6 to 1, and I think for the first time in the era of cheap shoes, I may try to get them resoled.

I have not yet had a pair of chinese-made leather or fake leather shoes that I've been a fan of.

Someone on the razor forum schooled me on horse butt leather. I bought a horse butt remnant of 8/9 ounce leather on ebay to make a razor strop, and it is sort of a hard leather, not the nice shell cordovan that george is talking about (or maybe that's not what george is talking about). It's a little bit abrasive but it has worn smooth and it maintains a razor longer and gives an edge better than any of the 4 cowhide strops I have. I'm convinced if I wanted to push it, I could strop a razor and shave for a month before having to take it back to the stones.

The cordovan shells and kangaroo strops by a particular maker are highly sought after, but they are out of my price range, and I'd sooner make something cheap myself, anyway.

You can work that wire edge off on your palm also, just flipping your hand back and forth on the edge about 10 times lightly after you sharpen it. But a nice bare strop is a nicer thing to have, you don't have to worry about how clean your hands are when you use it.

[Jonas Baker]

Best typo ever!!!!:D

Haaa! It wasn't a typo it was the obnoxious iPhone auto correct. I guess "stropping" hasn't made it into the iPhone lexicon yet.

[george wilson]

You are a professional office type(in occupation),and have to dress decently,David. Jon and I were in the bank years ago when the snotty little bank V.P. came up to the teller and told her to "Go help that guy over there who looks like he doesn't have a job". Well,Jon and I weren't dressed much different!! What a jerk to be talking where he could be heard by bank customers. I'd have withdrawn all my money then and there,except other bank snots would be no better.

For all the ensuing years,Jon and I have ribbed each other for looking like we didn't have a job,so it was worth it. I wear blue jeans and a blue denim shirt,but the knives I carry are worth more than the VP's suit!

[Jim Koepke]

Interesting thread.

Made me wonder about the green stick use for stropping my blades. It came from a lapidary shop. Considering that polishing stones is one of those things were people would be upset big time if there were streaks on some of their precious and semi-precious stones it is conceivable they take care to not have impurities.

jtk

[David Weaver]

Well, I don't think aluminum oxide is really an impurity. I'd guess that the things are made of chromium oxide, aluminum oxide, wax and oil, but there might be something else in them. I've seen the MSDS on the ones branded "microfine" before, but I can't remember where.

I've also gotten US made green sticks from sears, and they are a bit more coarse yet.

You can always order the chromium oxide powder somewhere if you want to give it a try, but I think the speed gained by the aluminum oxide bits in the sticks makes it preferable for woodworking.

The green powder is just about magic on a razor with a balsa strop, though. Cheap, blindingly sharp (something about the give in balsa that makes it sharper than any stone I've ever seen) and a bevel on a razor that has no visible scratches at all without a microscope. But the plain green powder is kind of slow.

[David Weaver]

You are a professional office type(in occupation),and have to dress decently,David. Jon and I were in the bank years ago when the snotty little bank V.P. came up to the teller and told her to "Go help that guy over there who looks like he doesn't have a job". Well,Jon and I weren't dressed much different!! What a jerk to be talking where he could be heard by bank customers. I'd have withdrawn all my money then and there,except other bank snots would be no better.

For all the ensuing years,Jon and I have ribbed each other for looking like we didn't have a job,so it was worth it. I wear blue jeans and a blue denim shirt,but the knives I carry are worth more than the VP's suit!

I'd rather wear jeans and boots. Couple of years in the white collar workplace working with white collar clients will run the individualism right out of a person, though.

[george wilson]

David,how poison is loose CrO powder? Do you want to risk any floating around? I have a little bit in a bottle.

P.S.: You are still an individual,don't worry!! I wore a suit and tie all the time I was teaching shop. A little ridiculous,but that was back then. I wore a clip on tie in case the table saw grabbed it.I still had to look out for the cuffs of my suit getting grabbed by the saw!!Never happened,just lucky(and careful).

[David Weaver]

It's a different thing than the hexavalent chromium that is a known carcinogen (at least that's me repeating what I've read, could be mangling it).

I still don't breathe any of it (or not much), I just put my finger in the bag, so a little sticks to it and rub it on a strop.

It could easily be mixed with wax or mineral oil though - that might lessen the chance of it getting on clothes, etc, it stains anything it lands on. I'm assuming that it's used as a green pigment because the powder, even little bits of it, are green to the nth degree wherever they land.

[george wilson]

I wouldn't even put my finger in the bag. I'd use popsicle type (craft) sticks.

[David Weaver]

Well, it's about as close as I get to living on the edge :)

I don't lick my finger after I dress the strop, though :), i just wash my hands right away else there will be green fingerprints, everywhere.

Here's the MSDS: http://fscimage.fishersci.com/msds/05060.htm

[Jack Curtis]

...I still don't breathe any of it (or not much), I just put my finger in the bag, so a little sticks to it and rub it on a strop....

According to a Harvard study about 20 years ago, we absorb more through our skin than through breathing and eating. Seriously.

[David Weaver]

Absorb more what? There is little to absorb of the chromium oxide pigment when you refresh a hard strop once every month or two months, and wash it off as soon as you've done that.

Actually, i guess in that respect, an oil paste or a wax stick would be worse, because it would not wash off nearly as easily.

[Jim Koepke]

Actually, i guess in that respect, an oil paste or a wax stick would be worse, because it would not wash off nearly as easily.

I usually leave my stick in its baggie, just a little pokes out to rub on leather or what ever is being used at the time.

jtk

[David Weaver]

I usually leave my stick in its baggie, just a little pokes out to rub on leather or what ever is being used at the time.

jtk

Mine area all out loose. I try to stay away from breathing and absorbing solvents, but that's about as far as I go in the shop with precautions. One thing i've noticed with people (and nothing regarding woodworking) is a lot of people have a half a dozen things they think are going to "get them", but in the end it's often something totally different.

At any rate, I didn't intend to mean that there is something bad about the abrasive wax sticks or oil sprays or anything else, I think few of us have enough contact with them to worry about it.

[george wilson]

At my age,and with my lung damage from many decades of not having a dust collector and working Brazilian rosewood,mahogany,boxwood,etc.,which are all carcinogenics,I am erring on the side of caution,I must admit. You should see those museum weenies when it comes to using a teeny bit of their dry German made pigments!! Dust masks,rubber gloves and all.

[David Weaver]

All of that wood dust would definitely have been bad news. I've probably already breathed more cocobolo than I should, but I've cut that out, i'm sensitized to it, and it didn't take long to get there.

Some of those pigments might be bad, but the museum folks might like to feel important wearing white rubber gloves!

I'll admit that this conversation made me go recheck my stuff to make sure there was no possibility that chromates could be in the green stuff. It appears the more dangerous chromium stuff is different colors, like brown and red, depending on what's in it.