File all saw rip over 10ppi???

[john davey]

I was reading Paul Sellers book and got to the saw sharpening chapter. He plainly states that saws with more than 10ppi should be filed rip even if you intend to use the saw cross cut. Is this normal? I know if you go to any of the current saw manufacturers they offer the option for rip or cc fileing. His justification is fleam is not needed with teeth this small as they will slice through the wood without the fleam as they are so small. Any ideas on this?

[lowell holmes]

Tage Frid said to sharpen hand saws rip.

A number of years ago I attended a chair making class at at Homestead Heritage. Paul was the Master Woodworker there at that time. Stan Beckworth was his assistant at that time. Stan Had a 10 tpi hand saw sharpened rip. I used it to cut the seat blank to size. I liked it so well that I had Circle Saw (Houston) sharpen one of my 10 tpi crosscut saws to rip. I still have the saw and use it frequently.

It is easy enough to sharpen an old saw to rip. You need to pay attention to the hook angle if you do.

I use my LN carcass saw to cut cross grain as well as the dovetail saw. They are 14 tpi. I recall the dovetail saw may be 15 tpi.

[Jim Koepke]

Everyone is entitled to their own opinion.

I find a crosscut saw even with fine teeth leaves a better finish than a rip saw with the same small teeth.

Using a rip saw with fine teeth, the cut still needs to take a trip to the shooting board. Often with a crosscut saw the end is smooth enough to not need cleaning up on the shooting board.

Rip teeth tend to push more on the wood. Going with the grain, the wood is just pushed out of the kerf. Going across the grain, the wood will have a tendency to splinter.

Crosscut teeth slice the wood and tend to not push out splinters. The wood is not pushed out of the way. The wood in the center of the tooth line doesn't get sheared off like it does with a tooth that is perpendicular to the kerf. This is why crosscut teeth are not as effective cutting rip as a rip saw is at cutting across the grain.

Of course, this is just my opinion and experience before today. YMMV

jtk

[Chris Griggs]

It certainly isn't hard to crosscut with a fine toothed rip filed saw. Especially one that is hand filed and therefore has a little bit of fleam introduced just from human error. I crosscut with my rip filed carcass saw all the time. How well a ripsaw cross cuts has a lot to do with the wood as well. Dry North American domestic hardwoods cross cut quite well with small rip teeth. That said, fleam definitly can makes xcuts smoother, easier and i think maybe quicker.

[Jessica Pierce-LaRose]

I can get by with little to no fleam on my fine pitched saws, as the cuts I'm generally making with a saw with more than 10 points are going to more "finish" cuts - because of this, those saw cuts are invariably getting knifed all around before being cut, maybe even having a sliver chipped out with chisel before hand to help guide the saw - this prevents most splintering in the "keep" side of the cut, and then to make sure everything fits perfect, it's probably ended up on the shooting board if it's the show face. So the extra smoothness of the crosscut isn't always needed. That said, if have the option of two appropriately sized saws with the right tooth count, one rip and one crosscut, I'll reach for the crosscut if that's the cut I'm making.

On my larger 11ish pt. Disston backsaw, I don't have a companion that size, so I added a little bit of fleam just to make crosscutting a little smoother.

The bigger issue for me between using a crosscut or rip saw for the same cut in thsi tooth range isn't so much the fleam, but the rake angle. I like a fairly aggressive rake if I'm ripping, it makes things go a little faster, but that same rake angle is uncomfortable and a little more difficult to control (for me) if I'm crosscutting.

[Tony Shea]

I would not be without my fine toothed cross cut saws. I completely disagree with that statement. I use a 14tpi cross cut saw just about daily and if i do my part I can get away without shooting. Cutting to a knifed in line with a ripsaw really poses danger of splitting out the wood beyond the knife line in places that are unrepairable. I have more reasons, but in general I completely disagree.

[george wilson]

When we first made crosscut saws in Williamsburg,I filed them rip since Jay Gaynor said he felt they were filed that way in the 18th.C.. They didn't cut as well as regular crosscut filed teeth. Generally I relied upon Jay to supply the research info. I had to figure out how to efficiently make the tools once info was given,or original tools to look at. Later I looked carefully at the original saws that had never been used(the 18th.C. Seaton saws). They looked to me like they had a 10º angle filed on them,or half of modern saws.

When we re sharpened these saws,we filed them to proper crosscut so they'd cut better.

I thought Frid was referring to back saw teeth being filed rip. They are often used to cut with the grain,like dovetails. Its been many years since I read about Frid's saw tooth preferences.

[lowell holmes]

I agree that the crosscut saw leaves a smoother surface. We were planing every cut,so it didn't make a difference.

[Paul Saffold]

I saw Paul at the show in Fredericksburg, VA and found him to be very down to earth. I liked his approach to teaching. That is to learn a skill then to make something utilizing the skill. For example, starting with creating a curve using only a chisel and then making a simple spatula.

As I stated on another thread, I liked his method for sharpening plane blades and chisels. When I got home I tried it on a garage sale chisel. I liked the results so I sharpened a plane blade and then one of my good user chisels.

Next I tried his approach to saw sharpening. I have a 12 ppi backsaw that I had sharpened crosscut. It cut OK. I resharpened it rip with
5 deg. rake and 5 deg. fleam and it cuts much much better. I'm very happy with it now. I'm no professional, for sure, but I could tell the difference.

That 2 of the modern premium sawmakers are now offering the option of a hybrid sharpening speaks well of the idea.

Just my 2 cents worth.

Nothing ventured, nothing gained.

Paul

[David Weaver]

What rake does paul recommend on rip filed saws intended to be used crosscut? a heavy 12tpi rip tenon saw with no rake is not easy to crosscut with.

[Mike Holbrook]

I have thought a good deal on this subject as well. I bought a Gramercy Sash Saw which is filed with a combo technique that is closer to rip. I love the way that saw cuts, with a .20 blade and 13 ppi ripping or crosscutting. I doubt that the average person sharpening their own saw is going to produce an exact fleam angle, especially on small teeth and thin plates. Most techniques for holding a specific fleam angle while sharpening can certainly be questioned in terms of their relative degree of accuracy.

In regard to Tage Frid, he was a big fan of 26" bowsaws filed rip. A bowsaw blade is much thinner and flexes more than a panel or hand saw which certainly changes things. I just picked up Tage's book and read the part on sharpening. He prefers rip sharpened blades and says he demoed the difference in cut speed regularly in his classes. He even has a picture of a rip bowsaw, rip panel saw and a crosscut panel saw, his actual cuts. His bowsaw makes a much longer cut in either crsscuts or rips. The rip panel saw also cuts further for for him filed for rip, although the difference is not much in a crosscut. Frid was a major advocate for bowsaws. I took a class or two of his at Highland Hardware/Woodworking. I saw his saw demo and heard him advocating rip bowsaws in person. He certainly believed strongly in his position and could be very convincing. Certainly at that point in US history the availability of hand saws was very limited and I have no idea if Frid ever had the chance to try a top quality restored classic western saw.

Tage's position was, the only reason to have a panel saw would be to cut plywood where a bowsaw or frame saw frame becomes a major issue. He also disliked backsaws calling them clumsy and heavy. He liked a straight handled or offset handled dovetail saw. Frid apprenticed in woodworking in Denmark. He was invited to the US to teach after WW II. Certainly one might argue that Tage's ideas were influenced by the lesser quality of tools available to him in that darker age of hand tools. Having seen him take a bowsaw blade and sharpen it I imagine one of his reasons for liking the saw was his ability to file one (rip) for use very quickly with minimal tools or fuss.

Having heard Tage's arguments for using a bowsaw had a major influence on me for quite a while. After following many posts on hand saws on SMC I have come to believe that we are each a little different in how we use these saws. I think personal differences and experience make significant differences in how individual tools work in each individuals hands. I started using Japanese folding pruning saws and then migrated to Japanese woodworking saws in around the same time frame that many others did. I think the reason I like my thin plate Gramercy Sash saw so much has to do with the years I spent adapting to the thinner Japanese saw plates. Certainly some of the difference in crosscut and rip filing becomes less significant in a thinner blade. Historically I would guess that those who sharpened their own saws did not spend a great deal of time worrying over exact fleam angles. There are tools for setting teeth, jointing sharpening...from earlier history but as far as I know there isn't much evidence of jigs used to set fleam angles.

[george wilson]

It seems a little strange that Frid would find backsaws heavy and clumsy,and prefer frame saws or bow saws instead. A frame saw isn't exactly not top heavy. Centuries ago blades for frame saws were easier to hand forge than blades for what we would call ordinary crosscut or rip saws. But,rolling mills appeared in the 18th.C..

We had a Dutch cabinet maker in the early 70's in Williamsburg,who preferred to use a frame saw for ripping. I think it is just an old fashioned hold over from earlier days of European style woodworking.

[Bob Strawn]

I came to hand tool centric woodworking late. The handsaw was the biggest hurdle for me. In my experimentation, I have found a great love for bow saws. They give a very long line to sight down, and if lined up correctly, the balance left or right on the frame will act as a level and make sure your cut is straight up and down. A well made bow saw will be tensioned as tight as a band saw, so the blade remains straight and true. The weight of my best bow saws match the pressure I would use to evenly feed wood through a band saw. When starting a cut I have to hold the blade up, but afterwards the work done sawing is all in the big arm muscles. My hand stays quite relaxed as it balances the top of the frame.

Green wood cutting is much easier with a bow saw, because you have less blade dragging in a deep cut and it is easy to wedge behind the thin blade. Cleaning the green wood goop and resin of the smaller saw surface is also less of a task.

As for rip cut dovetails, a rip cut does not leave as fine a finish as a crosscut, but that is not a big issue unless you are making dovetails that will be taken apart as part of the function. A furry edge will glue up as neat as a mirror finish. After you glue, scrape, and finish, a slightly off cut on a dovetail joint will often show less on a furry cut than a smooth cut. Since a rip cut is faster, and the rough edge is good for gluing and will be hidden or sanded down, rip is in fact better for most dovetail work, in the hands of a skilled craftsman. Deeper strikes are needed to prevent tear out, but that is easy enough to do. Sadly I still prefer to use a crosscut or a rip with a crosscut tooth every now and then. But while I have overcome a lot of my handsaw inabilities, I am no Frid.

Bob

[Jim Koepke]

After following many posts on hand saws on SMC I have come to believe that we are each a little different in how we use these saws. I think personal differences and experience make significant differences in how individual tools work in each individuals hands.

It is the differences that make the world go round...

If the various ways didn't work, no amount of evangelizing would keep people from discovering that they didn't work.

A few degrees change in the rake angle can make a big difference in how aggressive a saw will cut.

I have one rip filed saw with a little fleam. It is also filed with about 5º of rake. It is an aggressive saw in the cut. It also leaves a rougher surface than one of my saws filed at 90º rip with a more relaxed rake.

Like Mike said, "personal differences and experience make significant differences in how individual tools work in each individuals hands."

So, if what you are doing works, then don't knock it.

If what you are doing doesn't work, there are plenty of options from which you can look for a better way.

jtk

[Mike Holbrook]

The exact quote from "Tage Frid Teaches Woodworking, Book 1: Joinery, from the chapter on saws is:

There are many handsaws on the market, and each one is designed for a special purpose. The (1) bowsaw, (2) scroll bowsaw, (3) offset dovetail saw, straight dovetail saw and (4) rip panel saw are the saws I
have found most useful in my many years of cabinetmaking. I would never buy a backsaw, they are clumsy and heavy. Maybe they are all right in miter boxes, but a bowsaw will do the job faster.

He recommends a 26" 6 point and an 18" 8 point bowsaw. He also recommends a 26" scroll bowsaw, 10 " or longer 15 point off-set dovetail saw, and a 24" 6 or 7 point rip panel saw " (the standard carpenter's saw) is useful fro cutting big pieces, such as plywood, where the bridge of the bowsaw would be in the way". He mentions crosscut filing and shows a picture of teeth filed this way in his book but even in his little section on building a saw vise and sharpening he does not bring up the subject of fleam. Apparently he filed about everything with rip teeth.

I am not pushing Tage's opinions just offering what he said since I have the books. He was adamant about bowsaws. He felt everyone should at least try one. Tage felt that bowsaws are a little harder to learn to use which results in many disliking them simply because they do not take the time to learn to use the tool. He claimed that although he did not force his european students to use bowsaws practically all of his students ended up using them because they simply worked better. Having seen him use these saws I could see why he might saw faster with them. The man put much more body weight, larger leg and rear end muscles to work. The work I saw him do was with the work clamped to a bench top while he stood beside it. I do not want to imply his technique involved using heavy pressure. I think he used his weight and steady stance to keep the saw moving on track smoothly and relatively quickly, not to exert more force.

I tried bowsaws but could not get them to work for me. I love my little Gramercy Sash saw and all my western saws. I file rip, crosscut and everything between, why not.

[John Coloccia]

The only real problem I have with bow saws, and why I don't use them, is the dearth of available blades. There are some available, but it's not like it used to be.

[Tony Zaffuto]

This thread has really sparked an interest in getting a bowsaw. For first "dipping of my toes into the water", what does the group wisdom suggest? I will say, I highly doubt I would consider a bowsaw for dovetails, but otherwise, what say you?

[Jim Koepke]

I find an interesting point to compare in these two statements:


I would never buy a backsaw, they are clumsy and heavy.

...

Tage felt that bowsaws are a little harder to learn to use which results in many disliking them simply because they do not take the time to learn to use the tool.

I have not taken the time to learn bow saws. One day I will likely make one and give it a try. I have a cheap metal frame bow saw for cutting fire wood. To me that doesn't count as a real/quality bow saw.

Currently after using my backsaws a lot, it seems I just can't get enough of them.

I think it all comes down to that with which we are comfortable using. Most of my early dislike of backsaws was the discomfort of the handle. A bit of work with rasps and gouges has changed this. Making my own handle for a saw plate has also left me wanting to do this even more. My only fear is that making saws could become as addictive as making shavings.

jtk

[Jim Koepke]

This thread has really sparked an interest in getting a bowsaw. For first "dipping of my toes into the water", what does the group wisdom suggest? I will say, I highly doubt I would consider a bowsaw for dovetails, but otherwise, what say you?

My suggestion would be to build one. They are not a difficult project. That likely depends more on the individual and what they have to in their shop to take on such a project.

My reasoning is that this would make for a lower initial investment and possibly bring more enjoyment in use.

jtk

[Mike Holbrook]

I had plans to try a bowsaw too. I talked to, I think it is Glenn, at Woodjoy Tools. I had no hardwood and no way to turn handles so he was going to put a kit together for me. He got busy with a construction project and I got interested in the Western saws and it never happened. Wood joy makes some great saws, might be a good place to get ideas, parts....Gramercy makes the small turning/bowsaw and I think one can get a few parts there as well.

I will revisit this type saw. I even bought a smaller toothed blade from Highland Woodworking. The Turbo Cut blades are sort of the equivalent of a Japanese blade that one can use in a bowsaw. These blades even come in several lengths. They are more the disposable type blade but I think they are better than most of the less well made regular rip or crosscut blades you can find for bowsaws.

A large part of my attraction to this saw being the thinner blade that is not as sensitive to how it is filed, back to the op topic...

[David Weaver]

This thread has really sparked an interest in getting a bowsaw. For first "dipping of my toes into the water", what does the group wisdom suggest? I will say, I highly doubt I would consider a bowsaw for dovetails, but otherwise, what say you?

Emmerich from the best things. Pick your size, and then pick your blades.

For everything other than cutting curves, I haven't ever found bowsaws to do anything better than any other saw, and have a big emmerich saw hanging on the wall, nearly unused. It works appropriately, but I haven't got much use for it for anything other than cutting curves, which it would only do if my bandsaw broke.

[george wilson]

We used bow saws for years in the musical instrument shop. In fact,if you have seen our film on harpsichord making,Marcus and I are using an old frame saw(for cutting veneer) to cut the veneer for inside the spinet case. It had about a 3" wide blade,and worked fine,though it was a pretty heavy saw.

[John McPhail]

Woodjoy Tools. Mine is excellent.


This thread has really sparked an interest in getting a bowsaw. For first "dipping of my toes into the water", what does the group wisdom suggest? I will say, I highly doubt I would consider a bowsaw for dovetails, but otherwise, what say you?

[Kees Heiden]

Just to add some context to tage frid. On continental europe it's almost impossible to find antique handsaws of the 'british' pattern. It's all frame an bowsaws on ebay. de. The handsaws came much later. Likewise for metal planes. They are rare too.

[Charlie Stanford]

Tage Frid's bowsaws were all indeed filed rip, but he started with 12ppi crosscut blades and filed them rip. He didn't crosscut with 5-7 ppi saws for the record.

[Jim Koepke]

He didn't crosscut with 5-7 ppi saws for the record.

I bet he would have given it a try if he had to cut through some of my old rail road ties.

jtk

[Charlie Stanford]

This thread has really sparked an interest in getting a bowsaw. For first "dipping of my toes into the water", what does the group wisdom suggest? I will say, I highly doubt I would consider a bowsaw for dovetails, but otherwise, what say you?

ECE makes the best 'out of the box' bowsaw, but they are more topheavy than they need to be due to the use of a steel rod instead of string as a tensioning device. You can get used to it, but wrist muscles you didn't know you had will come into play to keep the saw balanced the first few sessions you use it.

[Pedder Petersen]

Tage Frid liked the bow saws and the others is because he had an apprenticeship as cabinetmaker in Denmark. Using big bow saws has a long tradition in continetal europe. The saws aren't filed rip / cross just different rake angles from -5° - 20°. Bow saws have advantages related to hand saws, because they can have thinner blades (0,020"). But I think you need a few years to get used to the high centre of gravity. I don't like them much.

Cheers
Pedder

[Mike Siemsen]

Another bow saw user from continental Europe is Frank Klausz. To get back to the original question, it is much easier to file rip, especially on a fine toothed saw, for many new to saw filing they would be better off filing rip and using a sharper saw than trying to file cross cut and ending up with a mess, or avoiding filing until the saw is too dull.

[steven c newman]

Just got through filing a 12(?) point saw by filing it rip. It seemed to help fix some snaggle teeth. Teeth were a bit over-bent, and worn. Jointed level, and filed rip. On a full sized hand saw.....that is a LOT of teeth.....I have a 6point up next, and it will also get the rip file. An 8 pointer was refiled by just following the profile already there. File was kept level though.