Back saw technique. Assistance needed Please.

[Ron Bontz]

I have been practicing with my dove tail saws as well as my carcass saws for dovetailing recently. Trying to get better with dovetails. I would love to use them more as I think they just plain look better than machined. My problem is, besides being painfully slow, I can't seem to get very accurate with them. But working on it. So tonight I decided I would just practice cutting straight lines trying to keep them square the depth of my 0.020 dovetail saw and my 0.025 carcass saw. 1-3/4" and 2.5" respectively. I repeatedly drew straight lines with my square, lots of them, then cut. I found I invariably veer to the right as I am cutting. ( I am right handed, BTW) I get a some what slightly curved line. Especially below the half way point. I used both my dovetail saws, 14, and 15 ppi rip. As well as the carcass saw. Same thing. I tried relaxing my grip as well as trying a firmer grip. I even tried just closing my eyes after I started the first 1/8th" deep kerf. Same out come. So now I am pretty sure it is me. Oddly enough I got frustrated, picked up an old Craftsman 16" back saw (0.040) that I just sharpened the other night, (I am just learning to sharpen and filed it rip). Straight line 3" deep. Tried it again, straight. So now I'm thinking: (what the ...) The handle is horrible with a really uncomfortable grip so I don't think that was it. All the saws are sharp. I just bought the darn things. So now, does anyone have any good suggestions for me to try? Thank you.

[Mike Holbrook]

Ron,

Sounds like you have a couple saws that need a little tuning. I am no expert on this subject but I have watched Herman's video on sharpening saws several times. After shaping and sharpening the teeth of his saws he always makes a test cut. Sometimes there will be rougher teeth or teeth with more set on one side of the blade than the other, causing the saw to pull in the direction of those teeth. If his blade is pulling to the right during the same sort of test cut as you are making, he simply runs a file, wider than the width of the teeth, lightly across the teeth on the right side of the blade, with the blade of the saw flat on a table top or bench. He goes very light, one pass. Then tests again, repeating as necessary until the saw cuts straight. Some people use a stone to make the same adjustment. Apparently some people run a file or stone over both sides of the teeth they sharpen even before testing how the saw cuts, but I think most people test and adjust accordingly.

Be careful you do not remove too much material from the sides of the teeth. I have one saw with the teeth filed too thin. The saw want get more than 1/2" into a cut before it jams & want budge.

[David Posey]

I think Mike is right on with his assessment and that you probably have a saw with too much set on one side. You can also use an oilstone or even sandpaper wrapped around a block of wood to correct the set. If you get it straight and you find you still have too much play when the saw is in the kerf, you can go back and take an equal amount off both sides.

If you want a refresher on technique, this Woodwright's Shop video is pretty good:

http://www.pbs.org/woodwrightsshop/video/3000/3009.html

But it sounds like you already know to keep a light grip on the saw.

One other thing you may want to consider is how you are holding your work. When I first tried dovetails they took me forever because I didn't have a bench built yet and was having to use C clamps attatched to sawhorses. It made things painfully slow and made the work difficult to see. Now I sit on my sawbench and cut them in my leg vice. That works much better and much faster. Dovetails are one of the relatively few things you will saw where you need your eyes to be pretty close to the work.

[Jim Koepke]

I found I invariably veer to the right as I am cutting. ( I am right handed, BTW)

My thoughts are pretty much the same as what Mike and David said.

One thought does come to mind on filing saws for rip. It used to be my practice to file half the teeth from one side and the other half from the other side. Many posts here suggested it doesn't make a difference if all the teeth are filed from one side. It seems my saws have more of a tendency to pull to one side if the filing is all done from the same side. Usually a bit of stoning on the side to which it pulls will take care of this. Now I am going to have to pay more attention to see if this is a predictable occurrence or coincidence.

jtk

[Don Jarvie]

Watch the youtube video from Lie Nielson about using a dovetail saw. The key is letting the saw do the work and not forcing it.

[Chris Griggs]

Watch the youtube video from Lie Nielson about using a dovetail saw. The key is letting the saw do the work and not forcing it.

That's my thought. Initially, I felt like maybe it was the saw that was misset, but I think its unlikely that all three have to much set. Too much downward pressure can definitely cause a saw to curve. Do some more practice cuts taking all the pressure off the saw. If you are still getting curved kerfs (and make sure they are curved not just angled), than I agree with Jim that it may be do to filing on 1 side, since all the filing burrs will be on one side. This will eventually take care of itself through use, but as Jim said you can get rid of the burrs with a quick stoning.

[Ron Bontz]

You may be right Chris. I do tend to bear down a bit as I cut further down. Thanks to all for the feed back. Back to the drawing board.

[Don Jarvie]

What kind of saw do you have? Having a good one makes all the difference. In a class I just took the saw most students had was the "Gentlemans Saw" and most struggled. I receommend if you plan on hand cutting DTs to get a LN saw. I bought the carrcus saw instead of the DT one just because it was a bit larger and one I figured out how to use it I was cutting wood very well.

A good saw makes a huge difference.

[Ron Bontz]

Thanks to everyone for their help. Sunday will be a day of inspection and practicing, among other things.

[Jim Koepke]

Ron,

One thing to remember with saw tuning is consistency. If the cuts consistently wander to one side, then the likely problem is too much set. If the cuts wander differently, then it is more likely technique.

The saw plate should move in a single plane. Any side to side movement of your hand, wrist or arm will show in the cut.

Good luck and let us know what you find on Sunday.

jtk

[Jim Matthews]

I think of the brass back as a weight over the teeth, rather than a stiffener.

The hard part is getting started. A straight saw will ride a straight kerf until it hits "bottom" against the spine.

[Charlie Stanford]

I have been practicing with my dove tail saws as well as my carcass saws for dovetailing recently. Trying to get better with dovetails. I would love to use them more as I think they just plain look better than machined. My problem is, besides being painfully slow, I can't seem to get very accurate with them. But working on it. So tonight I decided I would just practice cutting straight lines trying to keep them square the depth of my 0.020 dovetail saw and my 0.025 carcass saw. 1-3/4" and 2.5" respectively. I repeatedly drew straight lines with my square, lots of them, then cut. I found I invariably veer to the right as I am cutting. ( I am right handed, BTW) I get a some what slightly curved line. Especially below the half way point. I used both my dovetail saws, 14, and 15 ppi rip. As well as the carcass saw. Same thing. I tried relaxing my grip as well as trying a firmer grip. I even tried just closing my eyes after I started the first 1/8th" deep kerf. Same out come. So now I am pretty sure it is me. Oddly enough I got frustrated, picked up an old Craftsman 16" back saw (0.040) that I just sharpened the other night, (I am just learning to sharpen and filed it rip). Straight line 3" deep. Tried it again, straight. So now I'm thinking: (what the ...) The handle is horrible with a really uncomfortable grip so I don't think that was it. All the saws are sharp. I just bought the darn things. So now, does anyone have any good suggestions for me to try? Thank you.

Drop your right foot behind - approach the workpiece with your feet in a position like you were going to throw a football. A lot of problems people have with sawing are due to posture and position that make it impossible for the arm to move the way it should when sawing.

Because of the size of the Craftsman saw you probably changed your posture and approach to the workpiece. Using little dovetail saws can cause you to ignore body positioning. Stand to the side of the cut, drop your right foot back (left foot for lefties), shuffle and reposition as you saw across the board.

Ian Kirby has a great article on using backsaws from the black and white days of Fine Woodworking.

[lowell holmes]

http://logancabinetshoppe.com/blog/2009/07/episode-4/

I suggest you view the video at the link above.