Cermark on Aluminum - Having Issues

[Amanda Shughart]

I'm burning aluminum tags used in marking cables using Cermark and my marking isn't staying on at all anymore. When I rinse the tags the markings come completely off, or they stay on through the rinse and end up rubbing off afterwards.

I've cleaned my whole machine, lenses, insides, etc.
I've cleaned the tags with alcohol to make sure all oils and stuff are off before I coat them.
My coating is a nice even spray (We use the aerosol cans here).

I'm to the point where I am going to contact a manufacturer, but I'm not sure if its a Cermark probelm or an Epilog problem.

The laser is about 4 years old, though it hasn't gotten heavy use at all. It maybe has 6 months to a year's worth of use, it still looks like a brand new machine. Do the tubes wear out that quickly?

We're a paint shop so the laser is definately not one of our main production assets, thus it barely gets used. Matter of fact I am the only operator of it and it is only a small portion of the work I do.

Help? I need some advice.

Thanks everyone!

Edit: Forgot to add, I'm using a 75 watt laser and my current settings (After doing a test run) are 10% speed 100% power.

[Steve Rozwood]

Amanda,

That's interesting, you say you've been making marks on these aluminum tags at those settings and it's worked before in the past?

[Barry Clark]

I've had issues in the past where the aluminum was coated and adhesion was spotty.. could be that.
I know when I run stainless tags with Dry Molly as a compound I have to keep the speed @ 7 and power @ 100

[Amanda Shughart]

Amanda,

That's interesting, you say you've been making marks on these aluminum tags at those settings and it's worked before in the past?

Steve,

Yes, I've had decent results at that speed and power, however not recently. The results recently are very spotty. Sometimes I'll have a few tags out of a few hundred that won't rub off, but the rest do.

I don't think the tags are coated, but I'm not sure how to tell. I've even taken some scotch brite to them before coating, then cleaned with alcohol before spraying and those wiped off as well.

[Dan Hintz]

Amanda... I would suggest measuring the output of your laser. It could be coated aluminum, but what you're talking about suggests reduced power to me. I know you've been working with the machine long enough to know how to use it.

[Mike Null]

I stopped doing aluminum tags with Cermark for the same reason. I doubt that it's a laser or material problem but that the process is too unreliable for thin aluminum tags. I have switched my customers to stainless steel or to anodized aluminum.

If you're buying bulk tags from McMaster Carr they are not coated and I doubt that your tags are coated as there would seem to be no reason for it.

A power loss would show itself in cutting and the curve is rather sharp--in other words it won't be long before it becomes extremely noticeable.

[Amanda Shughart]

So what would be a good way to measure the output?

Though I've been operating the laser for a number of years, unfortunately it's not a consistant operation and I'm left with very little time to actually play, research, and troubleshoot now. The only reason I am able to do that even now is the tags are needed to make production for another area and my area is slow on work at the moment.

They're actually taking my machine away and moving it to another building soon. (against my better judgement, maybe they'll take me with it, but it's not looking good)

Management changed and doesn't want to deal with the "extra work" the laser creates I guess. I can't wait for the day when I can get my own machine.

[Steve Rozwood]

Amanda, If you give me the lot number I can check the LMM-6000 and test it here on our epilog to see if I have any issues. I have some 3003 Aluminum tags I can make some trials on. Do you have a way to check the output of your laser?

[Steve Rozwood]

Sorry I must have been posting at the same time you were. We frequnetly use a laser watt meter to ensure the quality of or lasers for testing. I think some people call it a "laser puck" or something like that...

[Amanda Shughart]

No problem Steve, we probably were typing at the same time.

As far as measuring output with any sort of calibration/measurement equipment, if I don't already have it, I'm not going to get it because of the issue of my section not going to have the laser for much longer. (How long I don't know, could be a couple of weeks, could be a couple of months. They're not telling me much.) The only thing I do know is that I am not allowed to order anything new for the machine. I was going to try the HI-Stick Cermark and my request was denied.

I apologize if I seem to be asking questions I should know. I just haven't had to deal with this stuff until an issue arises.

Is the Lot number stamped on the bottom of the can? If so I am using 230811 1044 and we have 1045 in our cabinet, but I haven't used it yet. Right now we have a 3rd party supplier so we(the shop) don't order the material directly. (Welcome to Govt. work.)

I'm heading out for the day, my shift is over. I will get responses, etc tomorrow morning when I get in. Thank you very VERY much for your responses and your help. -I- appreciate it on a personal and professional level.

[Steve Rozwood]

Sorry to hear that Amanda, maybe if we find out the issues your facing they might reconsider keeping the laser, it's worth a shot? I see from your profile that you're located within driving distance from us. If you would like maybe I can pay you a visit and I can offer my professional assistance. I can also bring our laser watt meter so we can check the power output of your laser and maybe we can try and figure out what's going on. You can call me directly (724-223-5990), contact me through email if you wish rozwoods@ferro.com or we can stay in contact on this thread doesn't really matter to me.

Let me know, good luck!

[Dee Gallo]

Sorry to hear that Amanda, maybe if we find out the issues your facing they might reconsider keeping the laser, it's worth a shot? I see from your profile that you're located within driving distance from us. If you would like maybe I can pay you a visit and I can offer my professional assistance. I can also bring our laser watt meter so we can check the power output of your laser and maybe we can try and figure out what's going on. You can call me directly (724-223-5990), contact me through email if you wish rozwoods@ferro.com or we can stay in contact on this thread doesn't really matter to me.

Let me know, good luck!


This is what I call SERVICE - so glad you are watching out for us, Steve, and thank you!

[Steve Rozwood]

I'm sorry but I haven't properly introduced myself, I work with a small team at the Ferro corporation where we manufacture, distribute and service the CerMark laser marking materials. I figured you probably picked up on that from my signature but I should still and be a little professional. We're located just outside of Pittsburgh in the small town of Washington, PA and when we can, we like to frequently visit our customers out and try to help them out with any problems they're having. Let me know and I will try and schedule a visit either from me or one of our associates. Talk to you soon!

[Steve Rozwood]

Thanks Dee, I got to remember to be professional sometimes. It's been a long day!

[Gary Hair]

This is what I call SERVICE - so glad you are watching out for us, Steve, and thank you!

Everyone I have ever communicated with at Ferro understands what service is all about. Steve's offer doesn't surprise me, it seems to be par for the course at Ferro. (He probably learned from Sean...)

Gary

[Mark Sipes]

I have a 25 watt and have never been able to get CerMark 6000 (in a can) to ever stick to anything but stainless... Always thought it was just a power problem

[Dan Hintz]

I have a 25 watt and have never been able to get CerMark 6000 (in a can) to ever stick to anything but stainless... Always thought it was just a power problem
How slow were you going? I would expect you to be in the 5S/100P range, give or take...

[Amanda Shughart]

Wow, talk about having the rug pulled out from under you.

They came and unhooked the machine this morning. As of now I am no longer the operator/user.

Here's hopeing we win the mega millions and I can quit and buy my own laser and just do flashlights.

Thank you all for your help, I really didn't expect this to happen so soon. I've been kept in the dark about the whole thing, mostly.

Mushroom, over & out....

[Mike Null]

Dan

It's not a given that Cermark will work on thin aluminum. I use a lot of Cermark and have even run it at 1000 dpi and high power, low speed and the stuff still rubs off sufficiently that the items are not salable.

[Clyde Baumwell]

My own experience is that CerMark and Thermark DO NOT work on Aluminum...Ferro assured me that Thermark would work. I found out that it does not work on any aluminum and I am $100 poorer!

[Dan Hintz]

Dan

It's not a given that Cermark will work on thin aluminum. I use a lot of Cermark and have even run it at 1000 dpi and high power, low speed and the stuff still rubs off sufficiently that the items are not salable.
You could very well be right on that one... I do mostly SS with Cermark (actually, I use my own mixes these days), and I've only done a few pieces of Al. I didn't have a problem once I dialed it in, but that's not to say it won't be an issue for someone else. If it is a major problem for some, I'm willing to bet the particular alloy is of concern and should be looked at more closely.

[Steve Rozwood]

Clyde, Mike and Mark I believe that getting a mark on Aluminum is going to be machine dependent. The material is designed to physically bond to the surface of metal using the intense heat of the laser, kind of like welding (but not exactly). Since Aluminum acts as a heat sink, meaning it absorbs heat, this makes getting the heat in localized where the bond supposed to occur very difficult. A few tricks we like to use is to heat the metal us slightly using a hair dryer, using the honey comb cutting table to help keep the heat localized, use a reduced spot size lens such as 1.5" and finally slow your laser down as slow as it can go. The last on that list "slow the machine down" is very machine dependent. What I think that's happening is since technology is rapidly changing, laser companies are finding ways to get their machine to run as fast they can, and for good reason too, faster machine means faster output. Unfortunately a faster machine means that you might not be able to build up enough heat to get the CerMark to bond to the metals that act as heat sinks (Aluminum, Brass, Copper Silver). You shouldn't have any problem getting marks on metals such as stainless steels, titanium's, pewter's and such. For instance we have a older 35 watt machine that runs at 44 inches per sec and a newer 60 watt machine one that's much faster (I haven't calculated it yet but I'm guessing around 90 inches per my marks, you'll see...). Our older machine gets good marks at 100% power - 35% speed on stainless and around 3% speed on aluminum. The newer machine at 60 watts is almost the same 100% power - 30-35% speed on stainless and 2-3% speed on aluminum, of course it's still going faster due to the overall writing speed but I think you will start to see the picture I'm painting. This is why we are getting away from giving anyone starting settings but rather we tell people to test their laser limits using a test grid, you know run at 100% power and run varying increments of speed until you can find a good solid bond. For example you can use your colr mapping in your laser driver and do something simple like this;

100p/50s
100p/40s
100p/30s
100p/20s
100p/10s
100p/5s
100p/2s

Let me know if this makes any sense or not.

[Chuck Stone]

I did get it to work on aluminum, but it took a long time and several tests.
I think I ended up at something like .4 speed/100 power on an old 30W tube
(who knows what it really puts out?) It was turning blue when heated.

[Dee Gallo]

I did get it to work on aluminum, but it took a long time and several tests.
I think I ended up at something like .4 speed/100 power on an old 30W tube
(who knows what it really puts out?) It was turning blue when heated.

SHOULD have entered that into the contest, Chuck - I like it better than the winner!

[Chuck Stone]

SHOULD have entered that into the contest, Chuck - I like it better than the winner!

LOL .. .that one did take first. I was surprised.
(almost broke my arm patting myself on the back)
I have to call Ferro and see what I should get. Don't
have enough power for the tape.. but I did finally get
a double action airbrush, so that should help.

[Dee Gallo]

LOL .. .that one did take first. I was surprised.
(almost broke my arm patting myself on the back)
I have to call Ferro and see what I should get. Don't
have enough power for the tape.. but I did finally get
a double action airbrush, so that should help.

Hahaha, just checking to see if that was really you - I can't really see the photo too well on the blog. Congratulations, you deserve it!

[Chuck Stone]

Thanks, Dee ... now I just have to figure out what I need.
I just bought a jar of 6038 a couple of months ago. D'OH!!

[Mike Null]

It may well be the alloy that is the problem with aluminum but I think the problem is more heat dissipation. The aluminum I would mark if I could is 1" x 3" tags which I normally lay on the table about 7 wide by 7 or 8 down. My theory is that by the time the laser makes its pass across this 21" wide area the aluminum has dissipated the heat from the first pass and does not sufficiently heat the piece to create the bond.

This ain't my first rodeo. I have tried all manner of speeds and power and dpi as well as changing my formula. My machine will mark stainless steel without Cermark so it's not a power issue.

At some point you have to make a judgment as to whether marking aluminum with Cermark is profitable. I say it isn't for my application. On the other hand I did jobs totaling about $5000 last using Cermark on stainless and find it to be a most profitable application.

[Clyde Baumwell]

I also have successfully engraved stainless with the Ferro products. But when it comes to aluminum, "fuggedaboutit"! You can't make any money engraving at a speed of .2...at least it is not worth my time

[Amy Shelton]

Wow, talk about having the rug pulled out from under you.

They came and unhooked the machine this morning. As of now I am no longer the operator/user.

....

Mushroom, over & out....

Sorry Amanda, that's a real bummer. Hopefully they will get the laser back up and running, or at least let you know what is going on.
Amy