Can I deep engrave thick brass and aluminum of an Epilog FiberMark

[Patrick Richard]

Hello,

This is my first post, please be gentle.

I'm trying to find out if I can deep engrave, let's say 0.030" deep, into thick (0.125" or 0.1875") brass and aluminum bars with an Epilog FiberMark. I asked Epilog and they will run a test for me but personnel availability at their end is causing delays.

I understand from reading here and there that it is possible but would require multiple passes. I'd like to know if anyone as tried this, with what power FiberMark, and with as many "secrets" from your recipe. Not asking much really...:D

Kind regards,

Patrick

[Rodne Gold]

Hi and welcome , we will be gentle
It might be better and or cheaper to use a CnC rotary type engraver?
What exactly do you want to do?

[Patrick Richard]

Hi Rodne,

I am also looking at the CNC approach but I'm a bit worried about throughput and the smallness of the details that can be engraved. There are also less steps, I believe, in going from the drawing to the laser than to the CNC. I did try a Vision 1624 last week and people I showed the results to loved them. We did not push the machine's limits but it looks to be significantly slower.

I am looking to manufacture very high end dog tags, of various shapes, and with custom logo or wording on both sides of the tag.

[Martin Boekers]

You may ask Epilog if there is a Fiber laser in your area, if so they may help you.

[Patrick Richard]

Martin,

I'm trying that too; the local distributor may be able to let me access the machine once he has one. One of my concerns is that the CNC approach might require multiple machines if demand is great enough and that I might not have enough access to the distributor's laser for my purpose.

I guess I'm worried about too much success. Everyone should be blessed with the same concerns...

[matthew knott]

Are you going to try cutting the blanks with the laser? either way the epilog fibre mark is not the machine for you (IMO) I would either buy the blanks in or get a cnc system that can quickly cut the blanks, the laser will take ages to cut the blanks and the edges would probably still need finishing. Secondly you would want to get a galvo machine as they are much quicker and can produce better detail and quality.The more power you have the better and a shorter focal length lens will help loads, 0.030" deep is very deep, we often get asked to engrave to this kind of depth, unless its of a specific reason (tooling etc) we would do a sample at about half the depth and the customer normally say it looked exactly what they where looking for. The epilog is a nice machine but only really usefull if you need large engraving area and also for customer they have that like the co2 products and want to start engraving metal.

[Dan Hintz]

Patrick,

REach out to Bruce Boone... his fiber is a bit more powerful, but he can give you a good idea as to the time involved in getting that depth. Expect multiple passes.

[Bruce Boone]

Multiple passes is an understatement. I don't usually go that deep, and rings in titanium often take an hour on my 80 watt YAG. If you're not using a galvo, you would multiply that several fold. I saw an Epilog fiber laser today as a matter of fact in a show and it was painfully slow to do marking. It got maybe .004" deep or so on it's deep engraved stuff. I think that was 40 watts. If you are only cutting small stuff like letters instead of a cutout background, that will certainly help, but that depth with take probably something like 500 passes.

Here's an example of one that takes me somewhere around 150 passes.

[Rodne Gold]

The way I would do your job is load a sheet of brass or ally on an overhead router type engraver/cnc and then engrave both sides of the tag and then use the cnc to cut both sides , glue em together and hey presto.
You can actually chemically etch the tags if you use a resist and laser it away if you need finer detail. IE paint the tag , laser away paint on either side and use caustic soda for the ally and ferric chloride for the brass to etch away where the paint has been lasered off.
In fact , to start off , I would buy something like a 2nd hand Roland 2300a engraver or the like (as low as $1500) , it's slow , but does nice detail , is geared to flat work and works off Corel and Dr Engrave (and more complex software like signlab/engravelab)
Low cost and simple to use - if things really pick up - well you can look at higher production machines.

[Patrick Richard]

No, I don't intend to cut the blanks with the laser. Actually the blanks are user defined so I can't buy the blanks either. and every tag can be significantly different. The CNC option is still a live one although I have concerns about overall throughput and may have to go with multiple machines if the volume ramps up.

I do agree that 0.030" is very deep; maybe it can go to 0.020" and still be acceptable. It does have to be fairly deep though because I don't want a tag that self-destructs. For example, my dogs are Staffordshire Bull Terriers and they play rough. Their rabies shot tags are diamond drag job and unreadable after 2-3 months.

I think I may eventually need the large engraving area which makes a galvo an issue I think but I do understand they are much faster. Decisions, decisions, decisions...

Thanks for you input; it helps

[Patrick Richard]

Actually there will be significant areas engraved so speed will be an issue I guess. I heard conflicting data for different materials; for example a document from Epilog mentions about one hour to engrave deep in a 6" by 6" slab of aluminum. Somewhere else I read "pretty fast", whatever that means, for brass. Add to that you comments and it does not look that good.

I may end up going with a CNC like a Vision 1624 and eventually a Vision 2525. Cheaper, and I know it can do the work.

Thanks for the input. Beautiful work by the way.

Dan, tahnks for raising Bruce's attention

[Conrad Fiore]

All we do is mechanical rotary engraving and I would suggest that you engrave something at .010" deep and try sanding it away. Diamond drag gets you .001-.002" deep, .010 deep will take a grinder to remove it from the object. So maybe you don't need that much depth after all.

[Bruce Boone]

I would agree with the others in that rotary is the way to go. A laser has to vaporize metal in order to engrave deep. By definition, that takes a lot of power in a small area. If you have a very tight focus lens that allows a lot of power density, you give up working area with a galvo setup. Mine only does a 2" x 2" area. If you have an XY gantry system, you give up massive amounts of speed there. If your laser isn't that powerful to start with, you need more burn time. The only way to do large areas fast and deep is vastly increased power, and that can add many dozens or hundreds of thousands of dollars.

If it's simply removing hard anodizing off a premade tag, my laser will do that in seconds. If it's a larger area and you really want lots of depth, it will take lots more burn time. I would think you might want to do testing to see how deep you really need to go. The laser can get crazy detail that just isn't possible by rotary engraving, but it's probably not the answer you were hoping for simply because it would take so much time and power to do what you were thinking.

[Patrick Richard]

Rodne,

Sorry for the slow answer. I'm considering the CNC approach more and more but I still wonder about throughput. Of course, if the fiber laser doesn't do the job that's a moot point. If it is as slow as the CNC, the only thing it would have going is the level of detail.

The chemical approach is something I did for my prototype. My approach to applying resist left to be desired and when I finally got something going it was really slow. Your resist idea is different, I'll give it some thought. One on the things I like less about chemical etching is the chemicals. I'm a chemical engineer so I know what to do but they are still a pain and a potential hazard.

I might actually go for a Vision 1624 that the local distributor uses as a demo. They are supposed to come back to me with a price today. Hopefully it'll be an offer I cannot refuse. Then, I'll be on my way to total domination of the high-end dog tag market... :rolleyes:

[Patrick Richard]

Bruce,

You make lots of good points. Another shortcoming of laser is that when they vaporize metals they vaporize everything. Brass flat bars often have lead in them and lead vapours are nasty to be around. That means that you need a specialized filtering system and that you can't really vent everythin outside and put it out of you mind.

I was actually going for the high level of detail but when you take about it, those details would probably not survive the abuse the dogs dish out.

[Patrick Richard]

Conrad,

I'll look into the depth issue. I did a test on a Vision 1624 last week at 0.030" and one at 0.015". I found the later a bit too thin. I guess I could try 2 passes at 0.010" each and see what comes up.

[Conrad Fiore]

Patrick,
Any relation to The Rocket?
If your goal is durability and longevity of readability, remember that in order to remove a .010-.015 marking in the middle of a tag, you would have to reduce the thickness of the tag by that much. That's why I say from a function ability standpoint, those extreme depths may not be needed.
We engraved quite a few special communication field housings for the military at .012-.015 deep and they literally dragged the aluminum housing behind a truck to see if they could wear off the marking. They didn't.

[Patrick Richard]

Conrad,

No relation to The Rocket, I can't even skate, but my dad looks quite a bit like him!

I understand your comment, I was in the army for a while and the material gets treated quite roughly. The real reason for the 0.030" is that the prototype that I chemically etched is that depth. Very scientific... I think I need two overlapping passes in some cases where the client wants to have a smoother finish so I could split the engraving depth in two and overlap the passes as needed to get the right effect.

What brand/model of equipment do you use to do your marking? Waht about spindle speed, bit type and size, and in/min?

[Conrad Fiore]

For manual equipment, we have a stable full of Gorton floor model pantographs that we use to engrave just about any material. All our computer stuff is either Xenetech or converted to Xenetech. On the Xenetech 16x25 we engrave/cut plastic, phenolic, brass and aluminum. Spindle speed and feed rates are dictated by the material being cut and the tip size of the cutting tool. We grind all our cutters in house and typically use tip sizes from .005" and up. You will find that the resistance on the cutting tool increases greatly the deeper you go with a conical shaped engraving tool. This being the case, you will probably have to reduce the depth of cut with each successive pass. You will have to time for yourself which is more practical, faster feed, less depth, more passes vs. slower feed, greater depth, less passes. We usually opt for more passes. Obviously, a cutting fluid system makes a world of difference in cut quality and cutting tool longevity.
My father was an AHAUS referee for almost 30 years. He taught me to skate about the time I learned how to walk.

[Patrick Richard]

Conrad,

Thanks for the tips; I'll try to put them to good use. I am in the process of buying/renting an old or new Vision 1624. That should be enough for my needs in the immediate future. I was planning on using 0.005" cutters but I'm also buying a 0.010" cutter to edge my bets. I was planning to go for a vacuum chip removal system but maybe I should go for a cutting fluid system instead.

I'm thinking that in the future, if this thing takes off, I'll go for a galvo system and hand feed the tags. For the time being it looks like rotary engraving is the way.

[Gerald Courville]

Hello,

This is my first post, please be gentle.

I'm trying to find out if I can deep engrave, let's say 0.030" deep, into thick (0.125" or 0.1875") brass and aluminum bars with an Epilog FiberMark. I asked Epilog and they will run a test for me but personnel availability at their end is causing delays.

I understand from reading here and there that it is possible but would require multiple passes. I'd like to know if anyone as tried this, with what power FiberMark, and with as many "secrets" from your recipe. Not asking much really...:D

Kind regards,

Patrick

I Deep engrave Aluminum with my Epilog Fibermark 40 watt machine. I get good results with about 15 passes. I am not home right now, but can send you photo's of my test piece.

Gerald - Spring, Texas

[Gerald Courville]

Well I may have replyed wrong.
I have good (0.03) luck deep emgraving alum with my Epilog Fibermark 40 watt with 15 passes. The speed and Freq. is the key. Don't get them right and you will not get the deep mark.

[Dan Hintz]

Low frequency, deep engraving.

Aluminum is one of the softest (easiest?) metals to engrave with a fiber...

[matthew knott]

I'm with Dan, aluminium is probably the easiest metal to engrave deep into, if you can adjust the pulse width on your laser then you want long pulses to get maximum energy. Galvo is better as you can easily program different scan angles, its always going to be slower than a decent CNC machine.

[Gerald Courville]

Just finished deep engraving AR 15 lowers, No problems.